Panorama: Secrets of Scientology (Showing BBC1 28th Sept 2010 9pm UK)

Big Farmer

Patron with Honors
Did a little digging aound on the law firm representing the cult, Carter Ruck. Seems they are heavy hitters in media law. Website here.

http://www.carter-ruck.com/Recent News/

They represented Michael Martin the ex speaker of the House of Commons when he was challenging the press over negative stories. See here.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7039994.stm

Further work by them here.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/new...gag-press-freedom-after-Twitter-uprising.html

So ultimately the BBC had its work cut out trying to cobble together any broadcastable material without this lot being on their backs. Would have cost the CoS considerable funds IMO to hire this firm.
 

Type4_PTS

Diamond Invictus SP
my post was *allowed*. OK, now I'm confused. Will I get an answer?
Can fish fly?

I just got through reading the whole thread on Marty's board, and it was somewhat of a surreal experience for me. The postings for the most part were something that would be typical of a thread here on ESMB.

One of the points that kept jarring me back into reality is that many people over their thought the meter demo was wonderful. :coolwink:

But many posters pointed out to Marty and Mike that they are now free to spill the secrets that ended up on the editing room floor. And I anticipate that we *will* hear some of those secrets........if not the thread would have been more heavily moderated to have eliminated some of those comments. So we'll at least hear the secrets they want us to hear.
 

OHTEEATE

Silver Meritorious Patron
Patience sucks, I'm gonna kill something!

In 5 years of being out, I have developed a bit of patience. I knew Panorama would be reigned in by their legal department, but what came through was ok by me. Especially memorable was Jason Beghe's interview, Amy saying "It's a dangerous Cult ", Claire Headley's earnest description of her emotional distress at being alone with her decision to abort her child. It's not what was hoped for, but it was what was possible under the circumstances.
Now, that said, chin up; for the press is not the only arena where this is played out. Criminal courts are the other. That game is much more secretive. There are many steps that take place in the investigation to make the case against the perpetrator as airtight as possible BEFORE the Grand Jury indicts, and warrants are issued. Then, it takes years sometimes before the defendant is sentenced. So, Mike and Marty may have more going on than BBC, ABC, CNN, etc. Maybe some other acronyms like FBI....
 

Alanzo

Bardo Tulpa
Now, that said, chin up; for the press is not the only arena where this is played out. Criminal courts are the other. That game is much more secretive. There are many steps that take place in the investigation to make the case against the perpetrator as airtight as possible BEFORE the Grand Jury indicts, and warrants are issued. Then, it takes years sometimes before the defendant is sentenced. So, Mike and Marty may have more going on than BBC, ABC, CNN, etc. Maybe some other acronyms like FBI....

If that is true, then they are true heroes, and are doing exactly what needs to be done for everyone.

I don't know why criminal courts are secretive, and meetings with the FBI are not mentioned, however.

There is a lot of mistrust of Marty and Mike, mostly from their own actions and words. Trying to derail the Australian Commission hearings were a huge let down in terms of being able to trust these guys. Their statements regarding how law enforcement is "useless" do not help either.

A lot has been said and written about this - directly to them. They do not respond, or find a way to address these VITALLY IMPORTANT ISSUES.

In Scientology's own "top-down, authoritarian" way, they have muddled on with huge numbers of would-be, and very experienced, supporters holding back their support and even criticizing their efforts. They could be addressing these things and building support, building allegiances, and harnessing resources that are currently unavailable to them because of this lack of trust.

If they are actually assisting law enforcement, then what the hell are they doing letting these huge pools of neglect just sit there?
 

TEoS

Patron with Honors
Personally, I don't believe for a moment that M&M have said diddly-squat to law enforcement with regards to real abuses within the cult, and the activities they both took part in on behalf of it. They like their freedom and adulation from gullible sycophants far too much.

That's just my opinion. I really do hope I am proved wrong, and soon.
 

AnonyMary

Formerly Fooled - Finally Free
The e-meter is not a "truth detector". It does not measure "charge" as such in the Scientology sense of the word. It measures resistance, pure and simple. The only difference between the "magical" e-meter and a $20 electrician's multimeter are the words and BS used to describe what its purpose is.

You are correct. If you can find an ex in London with an e-meter, who is Cl VI or higher auditor trained and knows that anyone can fake a read on the meter ( as many of us know from experience) I will do whatever it takes to get John Sweeney to meet and have another go at the meter again, but this time to prove what it really is.

Mary
ps: thanks for all your work on getting the show videos taped and up!!
 

Wisened One

Crusader
If that is true, then they are true heroes, and are doing exactly what needs to be done for everyone.

I don't know why criminal courts are secretive, and meetings with the FBI are not mentioned, however.

You don't know why? You think it should be revealed so the Co$ can have a chance to (try) and stop it?
 

TG1

Angelic Poster
(snip)
I don't know why criminal courts are secretive, and meetings with the FBI are not mentioned, however.
(snip)

Alanzo, most events in the federal court system are NOT secretive -- at least not AFTER an investigation has been concluded and criminal charges have been filed.

But in case you really mean that you "don't know why meetings with the FBI are not mentioned," here's why:

The FBI requires that informants and witnesses who participate in an ongoing confidential FBI investigation NOT publicize the investigation or its activities so as not to endanger the investigation.

And in a whistleblowers vs. CoS investigation where affidavits by eyewitnesses are regularly countered with affidavits by scores of staff members who swear the eyewitnesses are lying about allegations of crimes against persons, extortion, financial irregularities, etc., investigators' activities would need to be held quite closely. Wouldn't you agree?

Please understand I don't have any idea whether M&M are meeting the FBI for lunch every Wednesday or not. But to criticize M&M or anyone else for not blogging about their (theoretical) interactions with the FBI or other law enforcement agencies seems more than a bit disingenuous.

TG1
 

OHTEEATE

Silver Meritorious Patron
Yeah, what they said...

Here is the point I was trying to make . You won't hear about it until the exact moment when the raid goes down, and every reporter and news helicopeter for miles is broadcasting a live feed of the arrest of COB.( and possibly a few others). It is NOT BPI for a second earlier, because it is a surprise to the person being nabbed. So, they do not have a chance to slip away through their secret escape tunnel, dirt bike, paraglider, jet pack, and onto TC's private jet for the one-way to Bulgravia (where the police are already bribed). Our support will just have to wait. (mine will not be forthcoming no matter what happens). I'm just here for the popcorn.
 

Zinjifar

Silver Meritorious Sponsor
Alanzo, most events in the federal court system are NOT secretive -- at least not AFTER an investigation has been concluded and criminal charges have been filed.

But in case you really mean that you "don't know why meetings with the FBI are not mentioned," here's why:

The FBI requires that informants and witnesses who participate in an ongoing confidential FBI investigation NOT publicize the investigation or its activities so as not to endanger the investigation.

And in a whistleblowers vs. CoS investigation where affidavits by eyewitnesses are regularly countered with affidavits by scores of staff members who swear the eyewitnesses are lying about allegations of crimes against persons, extortion, financial irregularities, etc., investigators' activities would need to be held quite closely. Wouldn't you agree?

Please understand I don't have any idea whether M&M are meeting the FBI for lunch every Wednesday or not. But to criticize M&M or anyone else for not blogging about their (theoretical) interactions with the FBI or other law enforcement agencies seems more than a bit disingenuous.

TG1


"In that regard, one poster demanded I confess to the FBI. Well, his J.Edgar heroes had me under intense surveillance, ran informants in on me, and tapped my phone over an extended period of time – all while I was in. When I got the two feet of transcripts of my phone calls through FOIA, the agent who ran the operation told me,”we did our best, but you just wouldn't take the bait.” So, a) they are the last people who are entitled to any confession by me, and b) I know for a fact they don't have the balls to ask for one. And that goes to the very top, to the punk (and I use the word advisedly from personal experience) who spent a year travelling around the globe trying to put me behind iron bars." MR

http://forum.exscn.net/showpost.php?p=203263&postcount=1

Zinj
 

TG1

Angelic Poster
Thanks for this link, Zinj. I'd tried to read that wall of text before, but had missed the FBI reference.

However, how does Marty's refusal eighteen months ago to give a confession to the FBI (of crimes he may or may not have committed) preempt him from working with the FBI then or since to indict Miscavige?

Again, we're speaking theoretically here -- since neither of us (at least not me -- and I assume not you either) knows if he's actually talking to the FBI.

TG1

P.S. Also, do you still believe, as you've stated many times before, after watching last night's BBC program that Marty Rathbun and Mike Rinder are willing and knowing stooges and agents of David Miscavige?
 

Alanzo

Bardo Tulpa
Alanzo, most events in the federal court system are NOT secretive -- at least not AFTER an investigation has been concluded and criminal charges have been filed.

But in case you really mean that you "don't know why meetings with the FBI are not mentioned," here's why:

The FBI requires that informants and witnesses who participate in an ongoing confidential FBI investigation NOT publicize the investigation or its activities so as not to endanger the investigation.

And in a whistleblowers vs. CoS investigation where affidavits by eyewitnesses are regularly countered with affidavits by scores of staff members who swear the eyewitnesses are lying about allegations of crimes against persons, extortion, financial irregularities, etc., investigators' activities would need to be held quite closely. Wouldn't you agree?

Please understand I don't have any idea whether M&M are meeting the FBI for lunch every Wednesday or not. But to criticize M&M or anyone else for not blogging about their (theoretical) interactions with the FBI or other law enforcement agencies seems more than a bit disingenuous.

TG1

There is nothing disingenuous about it. Maybe ignorant of the details you outlined above, but not disingenuous.

Tell me this then: A guy who tried to stop legal action in Australia, and who also tells newly out independents that legal action is useless against the Church - how disingenuous is it to tell other people - "don't worry, they are doing everything necessary legally behind the scenes"?
 

Alanzo

Bardo Tulpa
P.S. Also, do you still believe, as you've stated many times before, after watching last night's BBC program that Marty Rathbun and Mike Rinder are willing and knowing stooges and agents of David Miscavige?

Don't know - do we?

After all, nothing prosecutable was reported - as has been the case for almost 2 years now.

Nothing but bad pr for David Miscavige personally was generated.

Once again.

One thing can be said: David Miscavige is still in charge of the SO, still has people occupied behind barbed wire, still runs fraudulent fundraisers, and is still threatening people, falsely imprisoning them, and probably still beating them and threatening people with their eternities if they do not comply with what he says - exactly as he says it.

Almost 2 years of the Marty and Mike show - the guys who know everything - and this is what we have.

Maybe you have not seen a lot of people leave Scientology, and watched the typical behavior of someone who REALLY leaves. Maybe you are not familiar with the "ideal Scene" of what that looks like.

Marty and Mike - even after the BBC show last night - do not look like that.

Although I do have more sympathy for Mike after watching that BBC show.
 

bts2free

Patron with Honors
I posted this on Marty's blog. Not sure if it will make it through the moderation or not. The first quote is in response to a poster named metaqual. Anyway, I'll leave this here as it's also my review for the BBC show, which was truly awesome IMO.

[Edit]: Marty posted it, but the only point taken issue with was my statement re the e-meter being a "truth detector." Other than that, Xenu survives in print.

“Although it was not the purpose of the demonstration, one could see that Sweeney was perfect bait for inducement into the actual procedures of the technical aspects of Scientology.”

Your use of “perfect bait” says a lot. Reminds me of when I was the PCS of my org before joining the Sea Org and calling new public “Raw Meat.”

Anyway, I thought the program was absolutely brilliant on so many levels. At first I thought it could be harder-hitting, but then realized that to someone watching this program who knew nothing about Scientology, will now walk away knowing a lot more than they did about the Church and what happens to dissenters or people who disagree – or even people who want to tell their side of the story. That person watching, unless completely delusional, will never set foot in a CoS ever.

So what that the Xenu/OT III material was covered? It’s a big and major part of Scientology. I think people have the right to know what’s being sold. You may not think so, but I do.

From RJ 67 LRH says:

“The material involved in this sector is so vicious that it is carefully arranged to kill anyone if he discovers the exact truth of it.

“So in January and February of this year, I became very ill, almost lost this body, and somehow or another brought it off and obtained the material, and was able to live through it. I am very sure that I was the first one that ever did live through any attempt to attain that material. This material I’m talking about, of course, is very upper level material and you will forgive me if I don’t describe it to you in very broad detail because it’s very likely to make you sick, too.

“Now my task for the remainder of the year, up until now – which is to say the ensuing six months – was to find some way to safely bring through individuals. It was not enough for I myself to have lived through it. Other people would have to do so as well when they reached Clear and tried to move up from that point above.

“And about five or six weeks ago, I finally was able to make a breakthrough which brought people through the zone safely. It is relatively easy to do now, provided one is an extremely well-trained auditor, and the band of fire can be walked through, bringing one out the other side unscathed, providing he applies the exact technology. No one is in danger of colliding with this at lower levels, since it concerns the formation of the society itself in which we live. A person is Clear on the first dynamic. It is necessary, to become OT, to became cleared on all dynamics, including that of society and that of the physical universe. So I have also made this breakthrough, and I don’t mind telling you, it took some doing. In all the eighteen years, this has been the toughest one that I have faced. And I faced it so that it would not be tough for you to face when you came to it.”

You may think that the material is so out-reality for people who have not moved up to being at that level to comprehend it, or wrap their wits around it, or will get sick from being exposed to it. To those who believe that, I say you are completely underestimating and miscalculating the intelligence of common, everyday human beings. People also have the right to know what they’re buying, especially with a religious belief or subject with claims of this scope and magnitude, and thus form their own opinions and make their decisions based on that knowledge.

I thought the pinch test was a great idea, however it’s also interesting that a new definition for what the E-Meter does was introduced by Marty- being a “truth detector.” Never heard that definition before. From what I know, all the meter really does as a device is measure resistance to the flow of current going through the body. Weather that is mental mass moving in or away, or a “body read,” all it is is a reaction to what’s happening to the flow of current. That’s it. Has nothing to do with detecting lies, or the opposite for that matter – thus making the meter itself a device of “evaluation for the pc.”

Mike, Marty, Amy, Marc, Claire and Mareka, you all did a brilliant job to expose this dangerous Cult. It leaves this series open for further episodes IMO. You’ve got a very wide audience.

And to Mike and Marty, I agree with others who have mentioned that just because the BBC didn’t cover a lot of the secrets you wanted exposed, you can still expose them. This blog is a great place to start. You have an audience.

Major thumbs up!!!
 
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bts2free

Patron with Honors
P.S. Also, do you still believe, as you've stated many times before, after watching last night's BBC program that Marty Rathbun and Mike Rinder are willing and knowing stooges and agents of David Miscavige?

I say, who knows? The Church of Scientology is filled with ACTORS.

As well, the CoS all the way back to the beginning has sent out missions and campaigns to "clean up the muddy field." And for years now, the field has been more than muddy, it's been a bloody war zone. What would you try at this point to "tone down" any confrontation or antagonism towards the Church if you were still running it? How would you restore the good name of LRH? Especially when people are leaving in droves.

I've been on and seen some really covert and creepy operations within the Church. I wouldn't put it past them. But, still, it's just speculation. But based on past campaigns, i.e. Operation Snow White and the spying/double-agent activities well documented, why not? We'll have to wait and see.
 

Veda

Sponsor
Hubbard Truth Detectors are used in Hubbard Guidance Centers

Marty explains the Hubbard "truth detector."

-snip-

The person is given an e-meter, which will also "tell" him (used as a truth detector)...

-snip-

-snip-

So, there's a manipulative aspect, and the trap of the e-meter becoming a truth meter, a truth detector that "will tell you."

-snip-

I think e-meters can be useful as simple stress/release of stress-detectors, for those who wish to use them, but that they have extreme limitations.

-snip-

Is that the labyrinth that results from regarding the sometimes useful, but limited, device of the e-meter as a "truth detector"...

-snip-

I posted this on Marty's blog. Not sure if it will make it through the moderation or not.

-snip-

From RJ 67 LRH says:

“The material involved in this sector is so vicious that it is carefully arranged to kill anyone if he discovers the exact truth of it.

“So in January and February of this year, I became very ill, almost lost this body, and somehow or another brought it off and obtained the material, and was able to live through it. I am very sure that I was the first one that ever did live through any attempt to attain that material. This material I’m talking about, of course, is very upper level material and you will forgive me if I don’t describe it to you in very broad detail because it’s very likely to make you sick, too.

“Now my task for the remainder of the year, up until now – which is to say the ensuing six months – was to find some way to safely bring through individuals. It was not enough for I myself to have lived through it. Other people would have to do so as well when they reached Clear and tried to move up from that point above.

“And about five or six weeks ago, I finally was able to make a breakthrough which brought people through the zone safely. It is relatively easy to do now, provided one is an extremely well-trained auditor, and the band of fire can be walked through, bringing one out the other side unscathed, providing he applies the exact technology. No one is in danger of colliding with this at lower levels, since it concerns the formation of the society itself in which we live. A person is Clear on the first dynamic. It is necessary, to become OT, to became cleared on all dynamics, including that of society and that of the physical universe. So I have also made this breakthrough, and I don’t mind telling you, it took some doing. In all the eighteen years, this has been the toughest one that I have faced. And I faced it so that it would not be tough for you to face when you came to it.”

-snip-

I thought the pinch test was a great idea, however it’s also interesting that a new definition for what the E-Meter does was introduced by Marty- being a “truth detector.” Never heard that definition before. From what I know, all the meter really does as a device is measure resistance to the flow of current going through the body. Weather that is mental mass moving in or away, or a “body read,” all it is is a reaction to what’s happening to the flow of current. That’s it. Has nothing to do with detecting lies, or the opposite for that matter – thus making the meter itself a device of “evaluation for the pc.”

-snip-

Above are a few mentions of the e-meter used as a truth detector that you must have overlooked. :)
 

afaceinthecrowd

Gold Meritorious Patron
I heard the term "truth detector" used in the '60's. Heber used to use it, as did other GO Pr's. I'm not sure, but I think El Ron may have used the term in Hisself's interview with Tony Hitchman in the later '60's.

Face:)
 

Alanzo

Bardo Tulpa
I agree with BTs2Free's definition: a device used to evaluate for the preclear.

Below are the spoken and unspoken evaluations associated with using an emeter.

"Op! Something is there you are not aware of. Look."

"Really? I thought everything was fine"

"Take a look. I'm still asking you questions about it, and glancing down at the meter, so something MUST be there."

"All right, well I don'...."

"That."

"What?"

"THAT"

"Oh! That's my grandma...."

"YES YES, What about your grandma? I am again digging, and just the fact that I am digging means that there is something there."

"Well, it doesn't have anything to do with the question (or does it?), but my grandma had piles,""

"Uhmmmhmmmm. Yeeeeeessssssss."

"She had the most god awful piles and Hey! I have piles..."

"Thank you very much, your needle is floating, and therefore that is all there is to that thing we uncovered that you were totally unaware of before we used this meter to find it."

"But I already knew I had piles."

"Have I missed a witthold on you?"

"Oh no! Oh No!"

etc etc

Evaluation and Mind Control through the use of an Emeter.
 
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