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Past lives

Veda

Sponsor



Benjamin Franklin:

"I look upon death to be as necessary to the constitution as sleep. We
shall rise refreshed in the morning."

"And, finding myself to exist in the world, I believe I shall, in some
shape or other always exist."


Jack London, author, best known for book "Call of the Wild":

"I did not begin when I was born, nor when I was conceived. I have been
growing, developing, through incalculable myriads of millenniums. All
my previous selves have their voices, echoes, promptings in me. Oh,
incalculable times again shall I be born."


Mark Twain:

"I have been born more times than anybody except Krishna."


Leo Tolstoy:

"As we live through thousands of dreams in our present life, so is our
present life only one of many thousands of such lives which we enter
from the other more real life and then return after death. Our life is
but one of the dreams of that more real life, and so it is endlessly,
until the very last one, the very real the life of God."


Henry Ford:

"I adopted the theory of reincarnation when I was 26. Genius is
experience. Some think to seem that it is a gift or talent, but it is
the fruit of long experience in many lives".


Johann Wolfgang von Goethe, (German poet, playwright and scientist):

"As long as you are not aware of the continual law of Die and Be Again,
you are merely a vague guest on a dark Earth."


Freidrich Nietzsche:

"Live so that thou mayest desire to live again - that is thy duty - for
in any case thou wilt live again!"


Mahatma Gandhi:

"I cannot think of permanent enmity between man and man, and believing
as I do in the theory of reincarnation, I live in the hope that if not
in this birth, in some other birth I shall be able to hug all of
humanity in friendly embrace."


Ralph Waldo Emerson:

"The soul comes from without into the human body, as into a temporary
abode, and it goes out of it anew it passes into other habitations, for
the soul is immortal."

"It is the secret of the world that all things subsist and do not die, but only retire a little from sight and afterwards return again.

Nothing is dead; men feign themselves dead, and endure mock funerals and there they stand looking out of the window, sound and well, in some strange new disguise."


General George S. Patton:

"So as through a glass and darkly, the age long strife I see, Where I
fought in many guises, many names, but always me."


Albert Schweitzer:

"Reincarnation contains a most comforting explanation of reality by
means of which Indian thought surmounts difficulties which baffle the
thinkers of Europe."


Walt Whitman:

"I know I am deathless. No doubt I have died myself ten thousand times
before. I laugh at what you call dissolution, and I know the amplitude
of time."


William Wordsworth:

"Our birth is but a sleep and a forgetting; The Soul that rises with
us, our life's Star, Hath had elsewhere its setting. And cometh from
afar."


Jalalu Rumi (Islamic Poet of the 13th century):

"I died as a mineral and became a plant, I died as a plant and rose to
animal, I died as animal and I was man. Why should I fear ? When was I
less by dying?"


Carl Jung:

"My life often seemed to me like a story that has no beginning and no
end. I had the feeling that I was an historical fragment, an excerpt
for which the preceding and succeeding text was missing. I could well
imagine that I might have lived in former centuries and there
encountered questions I was not yet able to answer; that I had been
born again because I had not fulfilled the task given to me."


Henry David Thoreau:

"Why should we be startled by death? Life is a constant putting off of
the mortal coil - coat, cuticle, flesh and bones, all old clothes."


Socrates:

"I am confident that there truly is such a thing as living again, that
the living spring from the dead, and that the souls of the dead are in
existence."


Jesus Christ in Gnostic Gospels: Pistis Sophia:

"Souls are poured from one into another of different kinds of bodies of
the world."


Voltaire:

"It is not more surprising to be born twice than once; everything in
nature is resurrection."


Koran:

"God generates beings, and sends them back over and over again, till
they return to Him."


Josephus (most well known Jewish historian from the time of Jesus):

"All pure and holy spirits live on in heavenly places, and in course of
time they are again sent down to inhabit righteous bodies."


Honore Balzac (French writer):

"All human beings go through a previous life... Who knows how many
fleshly forms the heir of heaven occupies before he can be brought to
understand the value of that silence and solitude of spiritual worlds?"


Arthur Schopenhauer (Philosopher):

"Were an Asiatic to ask me for a definition of Europe, I should be
forced to answer him: It is that part of the world which is haunted by
the incredible delusion that man was created out of nothing, and that
his present birth is his first entrance into life."


Paul Gauguin (French post-impressionist painter):

"When the physical organism breaks up, the soul survives. It then takes
on another body."


George Harrison:

"Friends are all souls that we've known in other lives. We're drawn to
each other. Even if I have only known them a day., it doesn't matter.
I'm not going to wait till I have known them for two years, because
anyway, we must have met somewhere before, you know."


Pythagoras:

"Among the ancient Greeks, reincarnation was a doctrine closely
associated with the followers of the philosopher and mathematician
Pythagoras. According to Pythagorean teaching, the soul survives
physical death.

"After a series of reincarnations each one following a period of psychic
cleansing in spiritual environments the soul becomes free eternally from
the cycle of reincarnations."


Excerpt from 'The Act of Creation' by Arthur Koestler:

At the age of twenty-two, he [Benjamin Franklin] composed a Pythagorean epitaph for himself;
at the age of eighty-four, the year of his death, he ordered that it should appear, unchanged, on his tomb. It reads:

The Body
Of
Benjamin Franklin
Printer
(Like the Cover of an Old Book
Its Contents Torn Out
And stript of its Lettering and Gilding)
Lies Here, Food for Worms.
But the Work Shall Not Be Lost
For It Will (As He Believed) Appear Once More
In a New and More Elegant Edition
Revised and Corrected
By
The Author





"Man doth not yield himself to the angels, nor unto death utterly, save only through his feeble will."

Joseph Glanvill​
 

programmer_guy

True Ex-Scientologist
@Veda

In this thread, are you using an Ad Populum argument to support the belief/notion of past lives?
Please use scientific evidence for this topic. That would be more interesting.
 

Type4_PTS

Diamond Invictus SP
@Veda

In this thread, are you using an Ad Populum argument to support the belief/notion of past lives?
Please use scientific evidence for this topic. That would be more interesting.
It seems pretty challenging of a topic to apply the scientific method to. How many have even tried? And who would fund the research?

I did a quick search and didn't find very much. I found this book, written by a psychiatrist almost 40 years ago:

Twenty Cases Suggestive of Reincarnation: Second Edition, Revised and Enlarged
https://www.amazon.com/Twenty-Cases-Suggestive-Reincarnation-Enlarged/dp/0813908728
 

Veda

Sponsor


Regarding the open and serious discussion of reincarnation amongst psychotherapists in 1950, and the problem of Jung openly admitting that he consulted earlier lives while giving therapy to others:

"The zeitgeist, the spirit of the times, doesn't allow it. "


__________​



 

La La Lou Lou

Crusader
As a kid I 'knew' there were past and future lives, I 'remembered' my grave stone from the life before when I was four. I remember remembering that.
The Idea of past lives attracted me to the cult, it would be great to remember skills from before this life time.

As an SO member I thought how I would hang around in a hospital and pick up a young adult body that someone else had discarded to save time so I could get on with clearing the planet without delay. I planned exactly where I would go after death and how I'd do it.
Then I discarded all 'religious' ideas and thought that death was just the end.

Now I really know that I don't know, that it's impossible to know before hand, and the chances are that there won't be Heaven or Hell in any of the multiple fashions. I know that there's not old men sitting around plucking harps on clouds, I've flown through them. I doubt there's red men with tails and horns waiting to push burning things up my bum when I croak. I don't think there's maidens and rivers of milk, I don't think there's a municipal council style rebirthing centre a la 'between lives' bodies in porn etc etc.

Either I will have a new life or I won't, in order to miss being alive you have to be alive and aware, if you are actually dead and no longer existing you can't experience sadness. So either way death is OK, don't worry about it. The last moment of life is the most important, if you regret your life, angry at yourself for hurting others then you're in hell and if you are proud of how you lived and acted with your family and friends, how you helped people etc then you are at peace, you're in heaven.

Go out with a smile on your lips.
 

Emma

Con te partirò
Administrator
As a kid I 'knew' there were past and future lives, I 'remembered' my grave stone from the life before when I was four. I remember remembering that.
The Idea of past lives attracted me to the cult, it would be great to remember skills from before this life time.

As an SO member I thought how I would hang around in a hospital and pick up a young adult body that someone else had discarded to save time so I could get on with clearing the planet without delay. I planned exactly where I would go after death and how I'd do it.
Then I discarded all 'religious' ideas and thought that death was just the end.

Now I really know that I don't know, that it's impossible to know before hand, and the chances are that there won't be Heaven or Hell in any of the multiple fashions. I know that there's not old men sitting around plucking harps on clouds, I've flown through them. I doubt there's red men with tails and horns waiting to push burning things up my bum when I croak. I don't think there's maidens and rivers of milk, I don't think there's a municipal council style rebirthing centre a la 'between lives' bodies in porn etc etc.

Either I will have a new life or I won't, in order to miss being alive you have to be alive and aware, if you are actually dead and no longer existing you can't experience sadness. So either way death is OK, don't worry about it. The last moment of life is the most important, if you regret your life, angry at yourself for hurting others then you're in hell and if you are proud of how you lived and acted with your family and friends, how you helped people etc then you are at peace, you're in heaven.

Go out with a smile on your lips.
Wonderful. That is exactly as I see it. Especially the bit about getting something burning shoved up your bum.
 

Dulloldfart

Squirrel Extraordinaire
It seems pretty challenging of a topic to apply the scientific method to. How many have even tried? And who would fund the research?

I did a quick search and didn't find very much. I found this book, written by a psychiatrist almost 40 years ago:

Twenty Cases Suggestive of Reincarnation: Second Edition, Revised and Enlarged
https://www.amazon.com/Twenty-Cases-Suggestive-Reincarnation-Enlarged/dp/0813908728
Try this thread and preferably read the underlying research. It's quite compelling.

http://www.forum.exscn.net/threads/life-between-lives-—-dr-michael-newton.11252/

Paul
 

EZ Linus

Cleared Tomato
If there are past lives, how would you explain the population increase? Are these more people coming from some other galactic federation? One entity controlling more than one body at a time? I used to wonder about trying to answer this simple question and trying to use Hubbard's ideals to answer it.

Once all the layers started to peel, I realized, or rather remembered that even though I came into the cult with an idea that past lives existed (mind you I was 12, but very "enlightened"--I'd already been reading Zen, astral projection, etc.), the first time I "ran" one in session, I had incredible doubt about it. I argued with my auditor about having maybe read it in a scene of a book. I think it was Clan of the Cave Bear. He asked, "Well did you read this particular scene in the book?" "No, I did not." And he gave me a kind of choice that I either read it, or it happened. It either happened or it didn't, or I either read it or I didn't. It wasn't exactly as I read it. I started to believe that I pictured it in the same way that I pictured it while reading the book and decided that it was because I'd lived that lifetime in a similar way, and now I was running a situation that looked like it. But I had my doubts because books give one visuals as described by writers, just as Hubbard gives one ideas that people can start imagining, only he is suggesting that they are the Truth. A writer of a book isn't telling you that those images in your head are your experiences, but Hubbard is saying that they are.

Because I trusted Hubbard and my auditor more than all the authors of the many books I'd read, I decided that the doubts I had were my reactive mind and rolled with it being the Truth of what really happened in my past lives.

However, when I left and considered the possibility of death being final and there not being past lives, scientifically, it made a lot more sense than anything else, even though I did not want it to be true. I also didn't want it to be true that Hubbard was lying to me all those years, but it turned out that it was true and I had to accept that. I realized that I probably had to accept the fact that I at least DID NOT KNOW what happens after death because no one has ever died and come back to tell anyone about it. There are many theories and stories and hypotheses, but no one knows definitely for sure. Those were more fact than there being a bonafide proven case.

From stories, many stories, I was convinced for 20+ years that past lives existed. Incredible stories, but I could never corroborate those stories. I never was able to see it with my own eyes, or even see the stories come to fruition as they were told, and I'm talking about people walking in and asking for their old PC folders. I only heard about this happening. I never saw it in the detail it had been told. I heard about people making "originations" about being past life Clears and OTs, but never: "This was my name and org and where I was on the grade chart; this was my auditor and my address, etc." Probably because it was impossible. It's impossible to remember, not because of implants, but because we were just conditioned to believe we couldn't remember everything--a convenient way to answer yet another lie on top of another lie.

The simplicity of there not being past lives at all works out for me much better now. I've come to grips with NOT knowing. I've even embraced the idea of there being a mystery and something new to discover.

One (of many) thing(s) I have discovered is that there is a giant difference between fact and belief. I'd like to believe there is some peace at death, but that is a belief only. I don't KNOW for sure. I know for sure there is death and death of the physical body and brain. I can believe I am more than my body, but even that I do not KNOW for certain. That too can be a manifestation of the brain. Our brains are extremely complex. People once worshiped the sun. All kinds of things have been "real" to people, but that did not make them so. Our imaginations are very powerful and our minds can be malleable. If you can program a soldier to kill, you can program anyone to do and think just about anything.
 
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" If there are past lives, how would you explain the population increase? Are these more people coming from some other galactic federation? One entity controlling more than one body at a time? I used to wonder about trying to answer this simple question and trying to use Hubbard's ideals to answer it."

Robert Monroe's answer is really wonderful, and make a lot of sense if you consider the spirit in not comprised of matter, energy, space or time but created them - and that is that he does not lead consecutive lives.

The spirit could live a life in the in the roman times, next one now, then another during the French revolution then yet another now. etc. So if there were say a billion souls - they could each be living 6 lives simultaneously now. You could be sitting across from your significant other and not realize it is you.

:roflmao:

Mimsey

detail.09724088.jpg
 

Dulloldfart

Squirrel Extraordinaire
If there are past lives, how would you explain the population increase?
Hubbard's idea is that thetans -- let's just call them souls to take some of the Hubbard out of it -- are trillions of years old.

What if new souls are being "birthed" on an ongoing basis in some "heavenly soul-baby factory" to keep up with the demand? Or imported from some other planet that actually did get nuked by its elite psychopaths and has an excess?

I'm not pretending to know the exact mechanism, just suggesting there could be other explanations.

Paul
 

PirateAndBum

Gold Meritorious Patron
T-800
I'll be back.​

I think there's enough anecdotal evidence to found a belief that death is not the end of our existence.​
 
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guanoloco

As-Wased
If there are past lives, how would you explain the population increase? Are these more people coming from some other galactic federation? One entity controlling more than one body at a time? I used to wonder about trying to answer this simple question and trying to use Hubbard's ideals to answer it.

Once all the layers started to peel, I realized, or rather remembered that even though I came into the cult with an idea that past lives existed (mind you I was 12, but very "enlightened"--I'd already been reading Zen, astral projection, etc.), the first time I "ran" one in session, I had incredible doubt about it. I argued with my auditor about having maybe read it in a scene of a book. I think it was Clan of the Cave Bear. He asked, "Well did you read this particular scene in the book?" "No, I did not." And he gave me a kind of choice that I either read it, or it happened. It either happened or it didn't, or I either read it or I didn't. It wasn't exactly as I read it. I started to believe that I pictured it in the same way that I pictured it while reading the book and decided that it was because I'd lived that lifetime in a similar way, and now I was running a situation that looked like it. But I had my doubts because books give one visuals as described by writers, just as Hubbard gives one ideas that people can start imagining, only he is suggesting that they are the Truth. A writer of a book isn't telling you that those images in your head are your experiences, but Hubbard is saying that they are.

Because I trusted Hubbard and my auditor more than all the authors of the many books I'd read, I decided that the doubts I had were my reactive mind and rolled with it being the Truth of what really happened in my past lives.

However, when I left and considered the possibility of death being final and there not being past lives, scientifically, it made a lot more sense than anything else, even though I did not want it to be true. I also didn't want it to be true that Hubbard was lying to me all those years, but it turned out that it was true and I had to accept that. I realized that I probably had to accept the fact that I at least DID NOT KNOW what happens after death because no one has ever died and come back to tell anyone about it. There are many theories and stories and hypotheses, but no one knows definitely for sure. Those were more fact than there being a bonafide proven case.

From stories, many stories, I was convinced for 20+ years that past lives existed. Incredible stories, but I could never corroborate those stories. I never was able to see it with my own eyes, or even see the stories come to fruition as they were told, and I'm talking about people walking in and asking for their old PC folders. I only heard about this happening. I never saw it in the detail it had been told. I heard about people making "originations" about being past life Clears and OTs, but never: "This was my name and org and where I was on the grade chart; this was my auditor and my address, etc." Probably because it was impossible. It's impossible to remember, not because of implants, but because we were just conditioned to believe we couldn't remember everything--a convenient way to answer yet another lie on top of another lie.

The simplicity of there not being past lives at all works out for me much better now. I've come to grips with NOT knowing. I've even embraced the idea of there being a mystery and something new to discover.

One (of many) thing(s) I have discovered is that there is a giant difference between fact and belief. I'd like to believe there is some peace at death, but that is a belief only. I don't KNOW for sure. I know for sure there is death and death of the physical body and brain. I can believe I am more than my body, but even that I do not KNOW for certain. That too can be a manifestation of the brain. Our brains are extremely complex. People once worshiped the sun. All kinds of things have been "real" to people, but that did not make them so. Our imaginations are very powerful and our minds can be malleable. If you can program a soldier to kill, you can program anyone to do and think just about anything.

The biggest thing with Scientologists is that they're illiterate with their own materials.

The basic Scientology books dedicate chapters to how how the thetan is way below Death on the Tone Scale and that the MEST composite is way higher toned.

The whole goal of the OT levels is to raise the thetan, itself, up the Tone Scale.

These chapters, mind you they're the basics, cover how thetans nip facsimile chains and collect them like trading cards. In addition being so low on the Tone Scale the thetan suffers from Dub-in of Dub-in. This is several layers of false track.

At OT8 you find out that the entire case you've been running...every single one of your 100s of folders of past life junk are completely not your track.

You're now prepared to discover your track.

That's the dibs.

I'm not saying it's factual it's just that no past lives that any Scientologists are running are theirs for the most part and virtually all Scientologists don't know that themselves.
 

RogerB

Crusader
Well, Guani . . . Nice write-up. But, but, but, what you have brilliantly exposed is "The Ronald's" standard tech stuff . . . .
and general consensus of that is, well, misleading, fantazmagorical, money-making BULLSHIT!

Reminds me of running own Goals GPMs in '62-'63 to then have Mr. Sly Smile declare that "all GPMs run to date are not your own but were implants." :(:oops:
 

Veda

Sponsor
The biggest thing with Scientologists is that they're illiterate with their own materials.

The basic Scientology books dedicate chapters to how how the thetan is way below Death on the Tone Scale and that the MEST composite is way higher toned.

The whole goal of the OT levels is to raise the thetan, itself, up the Tone Scale.

These chapters, mind you they're the basics, cover how thetans nip facsimile chains and collect them like trading cards. In addition being so low on the Tone Scale the thetan suffers from Dub-in of Dub-in. This is several layers of false track.

At OT8 you find out that the entire case you've been running...every single one of your 100s of folders of past life junk are completely not your track.

You're now prepared to discover your track.

That's the dibs.

I'm not saying it's factual it's just that no past lives that any Scientologists are running are theirs for the most part and virtually all Scientologists don't know that themselves.
Yes, but during the mid 1950s Hubbard said there were not other thetans in the body.

He had written about "entities" in 1952 but didn't think they, and their "track," were important.

Only during his post-Southern Africa nervous breakdown (1967) did he start seeing "Body Thetans" and regard them as a problem, and it wasn't until his second nervous breakdown in 1978 (after the FBI raids) that he saw the universe as "crawling" with "fleas" as he called them.

Hubbard's promise of true "OT" in a few years was not happening, so he needed to invent an explanation, which was that everyone on Earth was in a lot worse shape than was originally thought.

It was a bottomless pit as each failure was followed by a grimmer and grimmer "explanation."

From the Incredible String Band's I Looked up album of 1970.
At that time I don't think Robin Williamson would have done OT 3 yet,
and there was not yet any "NOTs" with its "fleas,"
so that dismal darkness would not have yet had its influence.





 

Dulloldfart

Squirrel Extraordinaire
Only during his post-Southern Africa nervous breakdown (1967) did he start seeing "Body Thetans" and regard them as a problem, and it wasn't until his second nervous breakdown in 1978 (after the FBI raids) that he saw the universe as "crawling" with "fleas" as he called them.
Didn't he start calling them fleas in the old OTVI materials?

Paul
 

Veda

Sponsor
I think you're right, Paul.

I might be confusing "fleas" with the announcement of Hubbardian hell in Ron's Journal 30.
 
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