People newly out of scientology & ESMB

Free to shine

Shiny & Free
I am starting this thread to keep debate away from some other threads about people newly out of scientology.

People are starting to roll out of scientology at a faster and faster rate. The snowball is gaining momentum. There are more and more people posting their "Doubt Forumlas" and "Statements of Independence", many of these on Rathbun's site.

As I mentioned on another thread, this is probably mostly due to it being the only widely read venue that will welcome them rather than rip them to shreds.

I cringe when I see another thread here about someone who has left. Are they going to be attacked, made fun of, is the thread going to run into an intense debate about some view on Hubbard or the tech that will make the newly out look stupid?

There was a great controversy here some time back when the "be nice to newbies" issue was raised. Certain parties seemed to want to make any understanding of Indies or newly outs to be about Marty taking over this board or some such crap.

The thing is, Emma wrote her Hope for This Board in January 2007, when it started. I'm going to repost it below - please ... can we live up to her hope? I am very anti tech, anti Hubbard, anti scientology, but I am very PRO people leaving scientology with as little distress as possible. God knows it's hard enough without the reception some have had here.

What this board is:

A place where ex scientologists and interested general public can get together to discuss various experiences in Scientology.

A place where where ex's and non ex's can mingle and chat and get to know how the other half think and live.

A place to learn from each other.

A place to support each other.

A place to swap ideas and suggestions.

A place to civilly debate issues so that other viewpoints can be offered and tossed around and horizons can be broadened.

A place to be allowed to defend your position and not apologise for it, yet at the same time allow others to have their own.

A place that people feel safe to expose the abuses of this harmful cult, so the true story can be told.

A place where newly "out" Scientologists can come and be heard and learn and be supported through a really tough period in their lives.

A place to make people laugh and have some fun and to not take it all so seriously.

A place to expose the traps and pitfalls in returning to a "normal" existance, and to learn some tips and helpful suggestions in making this transition.

What this board isn't:


A vehicle to exact verbal revenge on those who have harmed us both inside and outside of Scientology. By that I mean continuing to trade insults & flame wars that are a hang over from past relationships, fueds from other messageboards, chat channels etc.

A place to blame and crucify others for what happened to you. Over time there are going to be people who find other ex members who they feel were responsible for some cruelty that was bestowed on them. Whilst this is understandable, and needs to be addressed, it needs to be understood that EVERYONE did things in Scientology of which they are not proud.

A place to ridicule "believers". People find their way out of the Scientology mindset at different speeds and to different degrees. What they need is understanding, not to be fobbed off and called a "stoopid clam" etc.

http://www.forum.exscn.net/showthread.php?264-My-hope-for-this-board&p=725743#post725743
 

Smilla

Ordinary Human
I'll happily sign up to to that. I'll just have to keep newly-outs and Marty's Rons Witnesses somewhat separate. I'll try to, anyway :)

You make a fair point.
 

Veda

Sponsor
I am starting this thread to keep debate away from some other threads about people newly out of scientology.

People are starting to roll out of scientology at a faster and faster rate. The snowball is gaining momentum. There are more and more people posting their "Doubt Forumlas" and "Statements of Independence", many of these on Rathbun's site.

As I mentioned on another thread, this is probably mostly due to it being the only widely read venue that will welcome them rather than rip them to shreds.

I cringe when I see another thread here about someone who has left. Are they going to be attacked, made fun of, is the thread going to run into an intense debate about some view on Hubbard or the tech that will make the newly out look stupid?

There was a great controversy here some time back when the "be nice to newbies" issue was raised. Certain parties seemed to want to make any understanding of Indies or newly outs to be about Marty taking over this board or some such crap.

The thing is, Emma wrote her Hope for This Board in January 2007, when it started. I'm going to repost it below - please ... can we live up to her hope? I am very anti tech, anti Hubbard, anti scientology, but I am very PRO people leaving scientology with as little distress as possible. God knows it's hard enough without the reception some have had here.

I'm not sure if this will help, but here it is anyway...

The 'YOU NOW TALKING TO YOU THEN' thread:

http://www.forum.exscn.net/showthread.php?26341-YOU-NOW-TALKING-TO-YOU-THEN

What's disturbing is when someone recently leaves $cientology (as in a few day ago), he or she is sometimes immediately ridiculed by a few. Why not let the person have a little time - a few weeks? at least? - and why not make ESMB a welcome place? - this without compromising ESMB's value as a place where frank discussion takes place and important info is presented.

I think most understand this already.

If the person remains - many weeks or a couple of months later - an easily offended Scientologist, and insists we stifle our communications, and begins to propagandize, etc., then the situation changes.

But most don't do that.

Most $cientologists eventually become Scientologists and, then, eventually become ex Scientologists.

In the meantime, there's no way to avoid presenting new information, but I see no reason to ridicule someone who last week was a member of the CofS, and has just left.
 

Emma

Con te partirò
Administrator
Thanks Free To Shine.

As I said in the other thread, I created ESMB for Ex Scientologists just like Steve Spargo who needed a place to come to decompress, find out the truth about Scientology, talk about their experiences etc. without ridicule. I created it because there was no place to do that. ESMB doesn't provide that service anymore. The board has changed and it appears there is no turning back.

And people wonder why newly outs flood straight to Marty's Blog.

Do the math.

No doubt this will cause another furor like the infamous "ESMB is not the soft landing it used to be" thread that Feral started 18 months ago that caused WWIII on ESMB. The difference is that this time I don't care because I can't change it. Last time I was emotionally invested. Now I'm not because I've learned that I can't row against the current and win.

ESMB is what it is and thats OK. I no longer wish to change it back to what it was. But seriously, don't fucking whinge when new exes head straight to Marty's blog.
 

jenni with an eye

Silver Meritorious Patron
I am starting this thread to keep debate away from some other threads about people newly out of scientology.

People are starting to roll out of scientology at a faster and faster rate. The snowball is gaining momentum. There are more and more people posting their "Doubt Forumlas" and "Statements of Independence", many of these on Rathbun's site.

As I mentioned on another thread, this is probably mostly due to it being the only widely read venue that will welcome them rather than rip them to shreds.

I cringe when I see another thread here about someone who has left. Are they going to be attacked, made fun of, is the thread going to run into an intense debate about some view on Hubbard or the tech that will make the newly out look stupid?

There was a great controversy here some time back when the "be nice to newbies" issue was raised. Certain parties seemed to want to make any understanding of Indies or newly outs to be about Marty taking over this board or some such crap.

The thing is, Emma wrote her Hope for This Board in January 2007, when it started. I'm going to repost it below - please ... can we live up to her hope? I am very anti tech, anti Hubbard, anti scientology, but I am very PRO people leaving scientology with as little distress as possible. God knows it's hard enough without the reception some have had here.

Well stated FTS, I whole heartedly agree with you. :thumbsup:

I too have "cringed" :hide: when a newly out has popped in to say g'day.

I think sometimes it is forgotten how really hard it is for a newly ex cofs to find their feet in a new world that they had been denied access too for so long.

I wouldn't dare to suggest 'be nice to newbies" idea...we all saw what happened last time.

What I would suggest is a lot of compassion & understanding.

Human traits that all ex cofs 's have not experienced in a long time.
 

TG1

Angelic Poster
Well said, FTS. I agree.

I think the Hope for this Board (written in 2007) piece is as valid now as it was then.

Welcome, all. Whether you're out long-ago or on the fence or newly out or never were in -- this is a great board. I can't begin to describe how much I've learned and sorted out here. I don't even know when or if the sorting-out is ever really over. :)

There are some great human beings here, too. They're good people, people who've been through a lot and are the wiser for it.

But mostly -- please participate. Tell your truth. Speak your piece. See where that leads you and others. :)

One big difference between ESMB and the Church of Scientology is that this is not a place that seeks AGREEMENT. ESMB values debate and testing. And there are people here who believe all kinds of things that vary -- from each other and from how they felt last month. Chances are that along the way your feelings may get hurt and your beliefs will be challenged.

The good news is that may be why you joined up here -- to learn more about how you feel about Scientology and what you really believe.

Congratulations. You're in the right place.

TG1
 

Free to shine

Shiny & Free
Well stated FTS, I whole heartedly agree with you. :thumbsup:

I too have "cringed" :hide: when a newly out has popped in to say g'day.

I think sometimes it is forgotten how really hard it is for a newly ex cofs to find their feet in a new world that they had been denied access too for so long.

I wouldn't dare to suggest 'be nice to newbies" idea...we all saw what happened last time.

What I would suggest is a lot of compassion & understanding.

Human traits that all ex cofs 's have not experienced in a long time.

I will never, never forget how hard it was for me here at first (hard to believe now huh?). The courage it took to click 'submit' on my first posts, full of jargon (because I thought it was the only way to be understood), literally shaking. One comment in the early days made to me sent me into a massive tailspin and thankfully another poster was aware enough, and kind enough, to reach out a hand and make me feel safe again.

I know it's not that bad for many, but I had been in for about 34 years. And it is people like me who are leaving now, the ones that have known no other life.
 

Smilla

Ordinary Human
Thanks Free To Shine.

As I said in the other thread, I created ESMB for Ex Scientologists just like Steve Spargo who needed a place to come to decompress, find out the truth about Scientology, talk about their experiences etc. without ridicule. I created it because there was no place to do that. ESMB doesn't provide that service anymore. The board has changed and it appears there is no turning back.

And people wonder why newly outs flood straight to Marty's Blog.

Do the math.

No doubt this will cause another furor like the infamous "ESMB is not the soft landing it used to be" thread that Feral started 18 months ago that caused WWIII on ESMB. The difference is that this time I don't care because I can't change it. Last time I was emotionally invested. Now I'm not because I've learned that I can't row against the current and win.

ESMB is what it is and thats OK. I no longer wish to change it back to what it was. But seriously, don't fucking whinge when new exes head straight to Marty's blog.

I think you could afford to be a bit more optimistic. There does seem to be an increasing voice for offering a more supportive and less challenging approach to the newly-out, and there is support for it. Seems like a good idea to me.
 

Veda

Sponsor
-snip-

ESMB doesn't provide that service anymore. The board has changed and it appears there is no turning back.

And people wonder why newly outs flood straight to Marty's Blog.

-snip-

Oh that's silly. ESMB does provide that service, as much as it ever did, and better than any other Internet place ever has, and in an atmosphere of free communication.

IMO, you're making too much of this. It's not that bad.

MartyWorld is the next step for CofS true believers.

ESMB is their next step after that.

And that's good. :)
 

Pooks

MERCHANT OF CHAOS
In my opinion, Marty's Place is just a stepping stone out of the cult. Many go there because they feel safe being with people that still love LRH and teh Tek. But eventually, as people read more and more critical information and remove themselves from the Scn mind fuck, they end up over here and waking up more fully. Marty's site is OK with me. Scios believe in gradients and Marty's site is a good gradient for them. It's a necessary evil.
 

Smilla

Ordinary Human

Emma

Con te partirò
Administrator
IMO, you're making too much of this. It's not that bad.

Maybe I am. Maybe it's because I've had some contact with Steve and it's more personal this time. I just wish he would have felt comfortable with ESMB but the fact is he isn't, & probably won't be.

Never mind.
 

jenni with an eye

Silver Meritorious Patron
Oh that's silly. ESMB does provide that service, as much as it ever did, and better than any other Internet place ever has, and in an atmosphere of free communication.

IMO, you're making too much of this. It's not that bad.

MartyWorld is the next step for CofS true believers.

ESMB is their next step after that.

And that's good. :)

:yes: ESMB does / did provide that service.

:no: I don't think Emma is making too much of this.

I actually don't post much here anymore simply because I can't be bothered to
be misunderstood or misread.

I don't have the time nor the energy for a :pillowfight:

But every now & then, a thread comes a long like this one....I can't resist & I want to contribute. :dance:

I don't think it is too much to ask for some basic manners, common courtesy,
compassion & understanding for newbies, oldies & all those in between.
 

NCSP

Patron Meritorious
It's never a bad idea to argue for civility in general.

But I think there's a difference between being nice to people and being nice about people.

What is the forum about if not criticizing particular people (Hubbard, Miscavige, other Scientologists) and their work, and the things they hold very dear? Some of that is bound to make a newly-out person feel uncomfortable, or to upset someone who feels personally implicated in those criticisms, whether because they share a certain belief or because they're specifically named. But that criticism is precisely what constitutes the healing process for some people.

It's tough to strike a balance, but I think most people here do a good job. Having robust discussions about this stuff -- including extreme disagreements, harsh judgments, wicked jokes, and salty language -- doesn't preclude the participants having a baseline respect for each other. If someone newly out has the guts to post here, they should be treated civilly, to the degree that they don't interpret every disagreement as incivility. In that case, they would probably be unhappy in any situation where they had to encounter diverse opinions.
 

Gib

Crusader
Maybe I am. Maybe it's because I've had some contact with Steve and it's more personal this time. I just wish he would have felt comfortable with ESMB but the fact is he isn't, & probably won't be.

Never mind.

Why do people go to Marty's Place. As stated it is the place to announce leaving and the reasons why. People also disclose their names (but some posters do not) which is searchable on the net, just type in their name and follow it with Scientology, usually K. Watchers site pops up and people can see they are a scientologist. Then on Martys site there is link to scientology-cult.com which has a button for The Indie 500, and thus people can see who declared "indie".

Problem on this site, whether one wishes to be unknown or not, is that posters here, why it's hard to determine who was an ex member or not. Thus, new people landing here "think it's an SP" site as opposed to an EX member site.

It's hard to find out if the poster here "Veda" was on staff or a public scientologist. I'm just just saying this from the viewpoint of somebody just coming here. :confused2:.
 
Maybe I am. Maybe it's because I've had some contact with Steve and it's more personal this time. I just wish he would have felt comfortable with ESMB but the fact is he isn't, & probably won't be.

Never mind.

Understood, Emma.

A few angry individuals insist on their own right to badger others into conformance in the name of "free speech{. They see the board as a competition for the salvation of souls and are still on some sort of an evangelical mission to clear the planet.

There is nothing which needs to be said about scientology, the church, hubbard, or the abuses of management which needs to be said in an abusive and vicious manner. Nonetheless a few believe that esmb is an appropriate venue for substituting personal attacks in lieu of substantive discussions about the facts relating to the church. The problem with 'lowest common denominators' is they undercut a community and bring the tone & standards of a group down to their level.

Balancing the disparate forces is, as you have experienced, often a thankless task which places the moderator in the position of being personally targeted by those most intent through personal evangelical motive of abusing the privilege of posting.


Mark A. Baker
 

Free to shine

Shiny & Free
Understood, Emma.

A few angry individuals insist on their own right to badger others into conformance in the name of "free speech{. They see the board as a competition for the salvation of souls and are still on some sort of an evangelical mission to clear the planet.

There is nothing which needs to be said about scientology, the church, hubbard, or the abuses of management which needs to be said in an abusive and vicious manner. Nonetheless a few believe that esmb is an appropriate venue for substituting personal attacks in lieu of substantive discussions about the facts relating to the church. The problem with 'lowest common denominators' is they undercut a community and bring the tone & standards of a group down to their level.

Balancing the disparate forces is, as you have experienced, often a thankless task which places the moderator in the position of being personally targeted by those most intent through personal evangelical motive of abusing the privilege of posting.


Mark A. Baker

Mark - it's not that bad! :melodramatic:

I'm sorry but this sentence is ridiculous ... "They see the board as a competition for the salvation of souls and are still on some sort of an evangelical mission to clear the planet. "
 

NCSP

Patron Meritorious
Understood, Emma.

A few angry individuals insist on their own right to badger others into conformance in the name of "free speech{. They see the board as a competition for the salvation of souls and are still on some sort of an evangelical mission to clear the planet.

There is nothing which needs to be said about scientology, the church, hubbard, or the abuses of management which needs to be said in an abusive and vicious manner. Nonetheless a few believe that esmb is an appropriate venue for substituting personal attacks in lieu of substantive discussions about the facts relating to the church. The problem with 'lowest common denominators' is they undercut a community and bring the tone & standards of a group down to their level.

Balancing the disparate forces is, as you have experienced, often a thankless task which places the moderator in the position of being personally targeted by those most intent through personal evangelical motive of abusing the privilege of posting.


Mark A. Baker

Important to remember, I think, that high-minded debate is often not the only thing people want or need from a forum like this. Civility isn't about walking on eggshells or observing Robert's Rules of Order. It's completely possible to be vulgar, illogical, unfair, ungrammatical, and angry without abandoning a basic respect for the person or persons on the other end of the keyboard.

(On the other hand, seeing others -- any others, frankly -- as "lowest common denominators" who drag things "down to their level" does preclude treating them with respect or civility.)
 

R6Basic

Patron Meritorious
It would be nice if there was a "Newly Out" section where the only types of people who could post are those that have been on the board from 0-3 months and "veteran" ESMB'ers that have passed some kind of "I'm OK, You're OK" test.

I know I'm guilty of just reading a post and replying to that instead of considering what the thread is, who started, why it was started, how what I say will impact the Thread/Other Posters/Original Poster/etc.
 
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