Personal confession and accusation

Gadfly

Crusader
:lol:

YOU cite an example of coercion at the point of a gun and then accuse ME of taking things to an extreme absurdity?

When did you have a gun held to your head, G?

:roflmao: :dieslaughing:

People succumbed to peer pressure because they didn't want to face the prospects of severe changes to their life styles. That was horrible coercion. It worked because the individuals preferred to 'blend in with the group' rather than stand up for themselves & their own integrity.

I gather that for you 'I was only obeying orders' is an acceptable excuse. :eyeroll:

Mark A. Baker

I agree with you entirely. I left organized Scientology fairly quickly, because I did see the BS, and I refused to participate and contribute, despite the fact of lost friends, broken family, etc. The most important issue for me in Scn was "Personal Integrity". While I am not generally one to "suffer", I did suffer through the enforced disconnections with friends and family, because real people enforced real Scientology IDEAS.

Still, there ARE TWO SIDES TO THE COIN. Both matter. It is NOT one of the other.

The only reason I say this is because I have seen agendas pushed here and elsewhere where the idea is forwarded over and over that "Scientology is only a subject, it is ONLY ideas, it DOES nothing", and then try to create this "dumb" logical argument that it is "ONLY bad people who use these ideas in BAD ways". In fact, Scientology often takes inherently "good people", gradiently gets them to think within a framework of Scientology ideas, and gets them to do "bad deeds". The ideas form the foundation for THAT.

The IDEA exists. It is real. The person exists and he or she is real. They interact in BOTH directions.

But also Mark, pulling out a minor point of my post, and making slight of that one aspect, while done wonderfully from a certain viewpoint (VWD!), does not negate what I was describing.

Of course, you can entertain the IDEA that it does.

+++++++++
 
I agree with you entirely. I left organized Scientology fairly quickly, because I did see the BS, and I refused to participate and contribute, despite the fact of lost friends, broken family, etc.

Still, there ARE TWO SIDES TO THE COIN. Both matter.

+++++++++++++

I agree. Changing one's life is a wrench. Choices are difficult, especially when families and responsibilities to others are involved.

But, barring mental incompetence, the individual is responsible for his choices. Not someone else, however 'persuasive' he may be.


Mark A. Baker
 
... The IDEA exists. It is real. ...

Ideas only exist in the context of a mind. Absent the mind there can be no ideas.

Inkblots may persist on a page. Bits may maintain their state in a machine. Without a mind there is no thought, no idea, no consideration.


Mark A. Baker
 

Gadfly

Crusader
I agree. Changing one's life is a wrench. Choices are difficult, especially when families and responsibilities to others are involved.

But, barring mental incompetence, the individual is responsible for his choices. Not someone else, however 'persuasive' he may be.

Mark A. Baker

But, it doesn't matter! Sure, I do view myself in that regard, and I often wish everyone else would, but they don't!

Personally, I view everything that happened to me in and with Scientology as entirely due to my choices (really and truly). I see it no other way. But, I am aware of the forces and motivations involved.

Your statement is in some ways like so many of Hubbard's. It is an IDEAL, and while possibly being desirable, it does NOT describe the way things truly are. How many human beings do you know, honestly, who are entirely responsible for his or her choices? Really, what you state is an IDEAL. Or a certain reality that few are aware of on a "technical point".

See, I do agree with the idea of the KRC triangle. But, I have this tiny slant on things. No human being in existance has enough knowledge about the details of all-that-is, or even about SIMPLE matters, to make a fully responsible choice about anything. Never.

Part of the human condition is the sad state that each of us has an incredibly TINY amount of data about all sorts of things, facts, actualities, and especially about unknown side-effects & consequences of certain actions. To me, responsibility is an ILLUSION. To imagine that ANY human being ever has enough "knowledge" to make a fully-informed decision. And, matters are made MUCH worse when dealing with outfits like Scientology, because they fully intend to form your beliefs and manipulate what you agree with, all the while HIDING and keeping secret from you a great many FACTS about the world of Scientology.

Now, in legal matters, yes, I get what you are sayiing.

In some idealized way, yes, a person SHOULD be responsible for his choices. In reality, it is not that simple.

Also, do you mean "responsibility" as a CONSCIOUS AWARENESS of ones own direct cause in every aspect of dealing with life? Or, just the condition that, in the end, for all practical purposes, a person can be viewed as being the one "in charge" of his or her choices, whether he or she considers such things or not?

Part of the problem here, I think, is that "cause", as in direct cause/effect relationship is a model that is NOT entirely accurate in describing the actual operation of separate things with the things surrounding them. Thus, the notion of "responsibility" that arises out of that notion is also not entirely accurate. :omg:

In a quantum universe, where things can occur simultaneously, with no real before and after, and no real cause and effect, where does the concept of repsonsibilty fit in? :confused2:

++++++++
 

Gadfly

Crusader
I agree. Changing one's life is a wrench. Choices are difficult, especially when families and responsibilities to others are involved.

But, barring mental incompetence, the individual is responsible for his choices. Not someone else, however 'persuasive' he may be.


Mark A. Baker

Ideas only exist in the context of a mind. Absent the mind there can be no ideas.

Inkblots may persist on a page. Bits may maintain their state in a machine. Without a mind there is no thought, no idea, no consideration.

Mark A. Baker

The words on a page, in a book, that remains in a vault for 50 years, ARE in the context of a mind. A mind thought them up and a mind had the body write them down. The ideas most certainly exist within the words and symbols (as long as you can agree with the meanings of the words and symbols).

Bill picks up a book that contains certain "ideas". Until he "reads" the book, he has NEVER before contacted the ideas of "black holes". After reading the book, he knows about "black holes". All other people could die right before Bill reads the book. So, there were NO other people with the idea in their minds.

Where was the "idea", if it can only exist when in the context of a mind, BEFORE Bill read the book? :confused2:

It wasn't in Bill's mind. The idea was NOT in the context of ANY mind. So, if it didn't exist anywhere, and didn't exist "in the book", how could Bill come to grasp such ideas by reading the book?

Did the idea of "black holes" transfer magically from some other mind, when Bill read the pages of the book? :duh:

I give up. I suspect that most people understand what I am getting at. It is not that difficult of a thing to grasp.

+++++++++++++++
 
But, it doesn't matter! Sure, I do view myself in that regard, and I often wish everyone else would, but they don't!

Personally, I view everything that happened to me in and with Scientology as entirely due to my choices (really and truly). I see it no other way. But, I am aware of the forces and motivations involved.

Your statement is in some ways like so many of Hubbard's. ...

He wasn't always 'wrong'. Especially when he borrowed from others.


... It is an IDEAL, and while possibly being desirable, it does NOT describe the way things truly are. ...

True. Things truly are majory f#cked up. Perhaps, you may wish to argue to preserve this status quo because it represents 'reality"?


... How many human beings do you know, honestly, who are entirely responsible for his or her choices? Really, what you state is an IDEAL. Or a certain reality that few are aware of on a "technical point". ...

So it provides a goal and a tool for measuring progress towards the goal. You appear to be suggesting a reason for not expecting improvement in the human condition, and ignoring the damage intentionally caused by humans to others and the planet through succumbing to 'peer pressure'.


... In a quantum universe, where things can occur simultaneously, with no real before and after, and no real cause and effect, where does the concept of repsonsibilty fit in? :confused2:

++++++++

Answer: You, Gadfly, are personally to blame for everything. :yes:

Simple answer. Works for me. :coolwink:

Or, possibly all sentient beings bear & share responsibility. Hence the need to promote mutual cooperation as well as individual responsibility and encourage conduct that promotes the well being of ALL sentient beings (not just self, family & friends, or one's own species or group).

The fact that the church perverted Hubbard's bastardization of Platonic & Buddhist Ethics does not invalidate Platonic or Buddhist Ethics. :)

[Although personally I like the first answer better.]


Mark A. Baker
 
The words on a page, in a book, that remains in a vault for 50 years, ARE in the context of a mind. ...

No, words are not on a page. Inkblots exist on a page. It takes a mind to interpret the inkblots as words, which in turn are symbols for ideas, which in turn exist in the mind.

There is NO THOUGHT which exists outside of a mind. There are only physical phenomena which minds can interpret as somehow bearing 'significance'.


Mark A. Baker
 

LongTimeGone

Silver Meritorious Patron
I agree with you entirely. I left organized Scientology fairly quickly, because I did see the BS, and I refused to participate and contribute, despite the fact of lost friends, broken family, etc. The most important issue for me in Scn was "Personal Integrity". While I am not generally one to "suffer", I did suffer through the enforced disconnections with friends and family, because real people enforced real Scientology IDEAS.

Still, there ARE TWO SIDES TO THE COIN. Both matter. It is NOT one of the other.

The only reason I say this is because I have seen agendas pushed here and elsewhere where the idea is forwarded over and over that "Scientology is only a subject, it is ONLY ideas, it DOES nothing", and then try to create this "dumb" logical argument that it is "ONLY bad people who use these ideas in BAD ways". In fact, Scientology often takes inherently "good people", gradiently gets them to think within a framework of Scientology ideas, and gets them to do "bad deeds". The ideas form the foundation for THAT.

The IDEA exists. It is real. The person exists and he or she is real. They interact in BOTH directions.

But also Mark, pulling out a minor point of my post, and making slight of that one aspect, while done wonderfully from a certain viewpoint (VWD!), does not negate what I was describing.

Of course, you can entertain the IDEA that it does.

+++++++++

Precisely to the bolded text.

Regardless of whether we are responsible for our actions (of course we are), we can still be fooled into doing the wrong thing and justifying it. Most people want to please.

Scientology is very clever in this respect and is fully responsible for the effects it has on its members.

LTG
 

Gadfly

Crusader
No, words are not on a page. Inkblots exist on a page. It takes a mind to interpret the inkblots as words, which in turn are symbols for ideas, which in turn exist in the mind.

There is NO THOUGHT which exists outside of a mind. There are only physical phenomena which minds can interpret as somehow bearing 'significance'.

Mark A. Baker

I do get what you are saying. I agree. I really do. But, again there is more going on that meets the eye. The book is not "empty". In other words, a book with words on the pages will have a different potential meaning than a book with blank pages.

From simple electronics:

A battery is sitting on the table. It has a POTENTIAL voltage of 9 volts. But, until connected to a load (resistor), there is no energy tansferred, and no electron flow.

The current begins and the voltage becomes measurable ONLY WHEN the battery is connected to something else. Is the "potential" imaginary when the battery is sitting on the table unconnected to anything else? SOmething different happens when the context changes.

The same with IDEAS existing in some recorded format. They have a POTENTIAL to be understood when brought into the proximity of a mind. There is "something" there in the book, of course, yes, based on the agreements and extant meanings attached to the marks, dots and squiggly lines.

I won't bother with this anymore. I suspect that this has been discussed at length by far greater minds than mine or yours. I wondered what the outcome was? Anyone know?

This talking of "ideas" and how they relate to minds and "transfer" seems like various psychologists and philosophers might have well covered all of this already. Partially in theories of "memes"? Elsewhere?

++++++++
 

uniquemand

Unbeliever
Are you forgetting the incredible amount of "pressure" exerted by the Church, in the way of per policy staff and public behaviors, towards other staff and public?

<snipped by Uniquemand>

Of course I don't forget. However, I could, at any time, have said "fuck this" and walked out. The proof is, I did.

I could have chosen to stay. Sometimes I wonder what that would have been like.

Everyone makes these choices. I'm aware of the tools at work, not just sales pressure but psychological transference and social pressure. I'm not saying it is easy, or that their tactics are fair. I'm not someone's judge for how they handle that pressure. I just know that it can be walked away from.
 
Mark Baker and Uniquemand !!!!!!

Dear Mark Baker and Uniquemand, Gadfly and I are totally responsible for your actions, you both are not. You have to respond to Gadfly the way you do, you have no free will, Gadfly and I control your every action. You will now respond to this post, and thanks for stealing my thread with your ….., just as I had pre determined. I also command you to die some time in the future, at the time of my choosing, you have no free will in regard to my choosing the time of your demise. I tried to give you free will, but you screwed it up by dis agreeing with Gadfly and I. Hope you learned your lesson. I shall go back to C/Sing folders now.

Ethicbait (GOD to both of you)
 
Dear Mark Baker and Uniquemand, Gadfly and I are totally responsible for your actions, you both are not. You have to respond to Gadfly the way you do, you have no free will, Gadfly and I control your every action. You will now respond to this post, and thanks for stealing my thread with your ….., just as I had pre determined. I also command you to die some time in the future, at the time of my choosing, you have no free will in regard to my choosing the time of your demise. I tried to give you free will, but you screwed it up by dis agreeing with Gadfly and I. Hope you learned your lesson. I shall go back to C/Sing folders now.

Ethicbait (GOD to both of you)
eloisedes_01_ps.jpg
 
Dear Mark Baker and Uniquemand, Gadfly and I are totally responsible for your actions, you both are not. You have to respond to Gadfly the way you do, you have no free will, Gadfly and I control your every action. You will now respond to this post, and thanks for stealing my thread with your ….., just as I had pre determined. I also command you to die some time in the future, at the time of my choosing, you have no free will in regard to my choosing the time of your demise. I tried to give you free will, but you screwed it up by dis agreeing with Gadfly and I. Hope you learned your lesson. I shall go back to C/Sing folders now.

Ethicbait (GOD to both of you)

Coolness! :thumbsup:

I'll refer the FBI to you then, shall I?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RTiyLuZOs1A


Mark A. Baker :coolwink:
p.s. Good on you for whatever it is you are doing on staff within the church. I genuinely hope the circumstances there improve. :clap:
 

guanoloco

As-Wased
This is true.

When I was auditing in an Org (and even BEFORE I was auditing), I pretty much knew all the big secrets of the PCs in the Org because they are discussed openly by the C/S, ED, Qual sec and others. There is zilch confidentiality in Orgs and if you think otherwise you are sadly mistaken.

Not only this, Emma, but it's common practice to sit around in E/C and laugh about this content and openly be derisive of it...all the while having their E/C lips firmly locked on the anal sphincters of various SO members.
 

guanoloco

As-Wased
I have been reading PC folders for the past few weeks. Programs, auditor thinks and all that mumbo jumbo to help me piece together the truth and work through what has happened to me and others.

Auditors, myself included become quite arrogant. The more I read, the more I saw how the help was really not help, oh to the auditors and C/S's writing this crap, they were justified, but the snide remarks are just so blatant it is astounding and disgusting.

The eloquent ways you can say a PC is a piece of shit is amazing. It’s clear to see it’s about stats and money after a while, or the all important hours in the chair, F/N at exams and all the rest of it. Yea we say we care, but actions and what’s written in the folders tell a different story.

A common thread if you really look at the FES’s in this guy or gal’s folder, who has been on lines 10, 20, 30 years and has completed grade IV or NED or OT3 etc, it keeps coming up; OBJ not flat, still out ethics, still out 2D, still masturbates, still 1.1 on the tone scale and on and on. When does this shit get handled, OT 100.

It’s amazing it took me so long to see it.

My confession is that I was (and maybe still am) an arrogant, hypocritical, manipulative SOB. My accusation is that so are all, yes I said all, of the auditors past and present in my HGC. Any staff lurkers don’t believe me, go have a look, it will hit you like a ton of bricks.

If PC’s knew what their auditors really think of them!

Yea, I am still angry.

Thin line I am walking being in the org everyday and being here. Working toward freedom little by little.

Ethicsbait

P.S. Do I sound like American?

This post I may come to regret later I know, like I said I am angry.


WOW! EB,

There's so much I would like to ask you and not in an attempt to oust you but merely to understand.

I, myself, maintain anonymity due to familial relations - is that you're motivation for staying on staff?

...or do you see validity in the tech?

Do you consider that there's anything "salvageable" regarding Scn/tech?

From the inside can you see if Scn is shrinking or status quo or what?

Do you intend to do your Bridge?

Keep posting! :thumbsup:
 
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uniquemand

Unbeliever
Hey, Ethicsbait, sorry if you felt the thread was "hijacked". I certainly have a tendency to argue details to the point where they can become absurd.
 

Cherished

Silver Meritorious Patron
EDIT: Decided not to perpetuate the derail. :)

Ethicsbait, I put my hand up for answers to those questions too! ^^^^
 

Veda

Sponsor
Love you, but must inform you, you know Ron and Buddha are one in the same, Ron says so in Hymn of Asia.

Yup. Hubbard claimed to have been the famous Buddha of 2,500 years ago.

Meanwhile, this thread seems to have been taken over by a gas-exuding Scientology 'outside the CofS' PR person and some who are temporarily intoxicated by that gas.

Hopefully, it will get back on track. :)
 

Hatshepsut

Crusader
Originally Posted by Emma
This is true.

When I was auditing in an Org (and even BEFORE I was auditing), I pretty much knew all the big secrets of the PCs in the Org because they are discussed openly by the C/S, ED, Qual sec and others. There is zilch confidentiality in Orgs and if you think otherwise you are sadly mistaken.

Not only this, Emma, but it's common practice to sit around in E/C and laugh about this content and openly be derisive of it...all the while having their E/C lips firmly locked on the anal sphincters of various SO members.

What is telling is that the stories any new public spewed while their ruin was being sought could get glued into folders. And the more colorful the story the more you could gurarantee it would stick around. :nervous:

We, as a group of teenagers did OCAs which were kept for possible use if we stayed around. I gotta tell ya at that age you are only concerned with looking like a cool cat. So if you stold your uncle's car for a weekend it turned into running import auto parts to the Caribbean through a chop shop in New Orleans. If you smoked a doobie under the oak tree in the back of track, you bragged you were the dealer for the entire tri county area. That DEFINITELY stays at the front of your folder when you hit Flag at age 40. :grouch:

There should have been a warning. 'CAUTION. Anything you say can and will be used against you to extort more money.

Actually, what was sad is the over-zealousness used in coloring our fellow man as criminals. Is this just in our human nature?
 
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TG1

Angelic Poster
Ethicsbait,

Your situation there in the HGC is ... odd.

What's your plan? Do you plan to stay on there -- C/Sing, auditing, FESing, etc.? And posting at ESMB on your off hours?

Or do you plan to leave?

TG1
 
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