PISSED ,IT'S NOT YOUR FAULT !!!

[Cat's Squirrel]

Somebody mind-controlled to me would be a person who believes in thetans, the reactive mind, meat bodies, the bridge, the arc triangle, the krc triangle, auditing and on so on and on. Which was me.
This is only evident when trying to have a conversation with them as the tek raises it's ugly head and prevents communication.
The mind fuck is personal, and general.

But can't you see the problem with that (even accepting, as I do, that much of that is most likely true)? It makes it absolutely impossible for anyone to come on here and defend the things that they believe did work well for them, in good faith, because you've already asserted that any attempt to do so must be the result of "mind control".

It's a total no-lose situation for you, and a no-win situation for them.

 

[clamicide]

Oh yeah. I have long felt that the Study Tech and its full application is one of the most insidious things in the cult. It literally fucks with the brain. No joke. My IQ, tested with real things (and I actually, am not a huge proponent of IQ when it comes to ability, but for me was a marker that proved my suspicion that my mental agility suffered during cultdom) went down. I'm talking REALLY went down--stuff that doesn't fall within statistical accepted behavior--and I had (forcedly) taken so many IQ tests prior to the cult, and after, took a whole other bunch. I was, seriously, hoping it was my imagination.

Stupid cult makes people stupid. Luckily, recovery is possible. It just takes a lot more time (and luckily, less $ than being in the cult).

 

[clamicide]

Somebody mind-controlled to me would be a person who believes in thetans, the reactive mind, meat bodies, the bridge, the arc triangle, the krc triangle, auditing and on so on and on. Which was me.
This is only evident when trying to have a conversation with them as the tek raises it's ugly head and prevents communication.
The mind fuck is personal, and general.

I'm going to admit it--this post loses me.

Mind-control is the stuff of Science Fiction and After School Specials (but, might, indeed be real... I don't know). I kind of now am getting why those who are the 'experts' in cults prefer to use the term 'thought reform'.

Scientology fully engages in thought reform. I no longer believe in the reactive mind, the Bridge, etc.... but you know what?
I still find myself pulling little threads of things I 'believe' that got inculcated while in the cult. I'm no longer a Scio, and omg, they would fry me on sight, but I still carry stuff--it always surprises me when I find something else I've dragged with me, and I'm more than happy to dump it. This happens less and less frequently as time goes on (thank goodness), but I've kind of accepted that I might be 80 or 90 and as happy and wonderful as life is, I might get hit with the thought "Oh fuck... that comes from the cult... seriously?". It used to piss me off, because I was so sure of being "recovered" or "out", but now... I take it with a grain of salt and just take it that it is something that will come up time to time.

 

[Intentionally Blank]

I have encountered in dealing with Scientologists and exes a particular phenomena which I will both name and attempt to explain that bears examination.

This is a very scholarly matter so please keep that in mind.

As a consequence of the multiple mind altering effects created on a Scientologist on course ( they routinely have at least 6 or 7 things being done to their minds while" studying " and particularly if they do this intensively , or for long periods ) specific changes occur in behavior and beliefs.

I am calling this effect : Post Indoctrination Scientological Studies Educational Disorder or PISSED for short .

Many Scientologists while intaking study tech with the critical factor disabled are implanted with a pattern of being confused intellectually and having the doctrine SEEM to solve confusions EMOTIONALLY with comforting info .

It really distracts from the intellectual confusions rather than solve them , with misdirection and by splitting attention and other hypnotic techniques I've written about extensively in other threads.

It can produce euphoric " comforted " trance states and create an unconscious association in the mind with accepting and conforming to the emotional illogical doctrine.

It can make it " feel " good , comforting and relaxing to think , write and speak the doctrine.

It can also feel VERY uncomfortable to doubt , examine or reject the doctrine or parts that are implanted in the comfortable trance.

The more one is exposed to this through repetition ( probably one of the two most basic hypnotic techniques ) the stronger and more integrated into one's deeply held beliefs and very identity this can become.

This is true for study tech , admin , cramming , auditing , c/sing , and especially for course supervisors as they get a lot of training to NEVER recognize or even suspect hypnotic mind control AND they are re-exposed to the hypnotic materials AND hypnotic environment of the courseroom OVER and OVER.

LRH truly and deeply FUCKED many of them !

So , when exit counseling or dealing with people keep this in mind ; they have been conditioned , often for decades , on a deep deep emotional level to NEVER doubt or suspect study tech .

They often FEEL it is right and good with a very strong conviction born of EMOTION , so it is difficult to reason with .


It is like if someone you absolutely , completely love is accused of a terrible crime , on an emotional level your first instinct is to REJECT the accusation , HATE the accuser and DEFEND vehemently !!

Even though you have NONE of the facts or evidence to decide rationally !!!

LRH wanted you to NEVER look at the facts.

Facts : courses almost always take far longer than advertised . If we really raised IQ , became error free etc. we would take over , or at least shine in fields like engineering , research , mathematics , medicine , science , etc. , BUT very few Scientologists succeed in those fields and the " new man " ( i. e. clear ) of Scientology has ALWAYS been a flop.

Clears are NOT MLK , Einstein , Da Vinci , Tesla etc. etc.

Graduates of study tech DON'T immediately rocket to brilliance with genius IQ , perfect memory , flawless thinking etc.

Auditors are advertised as super able cause over their environment etc. etc. and to be frank some auditors I know are complete dimwits , some are very nice folks BUT there is CONFIDENCE from training BUT confidence is not COMPETENCE !

And study tech makes it so you cannot see that ; you get certainty.

That certainty is in DELUSION not truth .

I am very , very sorry I am quite sure this is how it is.

There are TONS of books on cults and mind control that concur with my own findings ; there are court rulings and reports.

There is a growing scholarly community that sees it this way and very , very few that claim the other side , and they are almost exclusively Scientologists , and " New religious movement experts " that Scientology PAID OFF .

So , when dealing with that old Sup have a lot of patience and remember his mind has been reprogrammed and fucked up without his knowledge or consent !!

So when he acts PISSED when you tell him study tech is hypnotic cognitive restructuring , combined with stacked realities and loaded language and embedded commands and misdirection with changed vocabulary ( as another misdirection) and repetition and logical fallacies and he just says " OH NO , I know it can't be !! "

With great indignation !!

If you try to reason with him and explain that he needs to understand those ideas to have an educated opinion , EVEN if he thinks he is a critical thinker ,
he may automatically reject needing to even understand what he is rejecting and instead attack you !!! For trying to help him !

It's not his fault he's PISSED , LRH worked for DECADES , and stole and twisted a lot of other people's work to get the tech that protects itself from exposure or examination .

Two things:
1. I LOVE your acronyms. This and the OUCHIES made me, quite literally, laugh out loud.
2. Dude, seriously, this is good stuff. You have no idea how much it helps me understand what I've observed in Mr/s Blanky.
3. (Did you know I couldn't stop at 2??) Thank you.

Blanky

 

[Student of Trinity]

The more I've learned about Scientology from outside, the more I've felt it confirmed: Scientology is almost all stupid, but few Scientologists are. That's the tragedy.

In particular I have come to feel that those who left Scientology after only a brief involvement may not be good judges of what Scientology in general is like. Whether by sheer luck, or because of their own particular make-up, those people are the ones on whom the traps in Scientology failed to grip. Whether by luck or by character, those people were unusually effective at isolating good things and rejecting bad.

If everyone were like them, Scientology really wouldn't be such a bad deal, and might even do more good than harm. The thing is that everyone is not like them.

And the other thing, perhaps, is that maybe those people who escaped Scientology with some benefits and little damage could instead have gotten very much more from something else, if they had done that instead of Scientology. Hell's bells, worst case: imagine a genius spending ten years in Scientology and getting out with some clear benefits. Great; except that this hypothetical genius could have spent those ten years learning a real science instead, and discovering the real cure for cancer.

I don't mean to lay a big guilt trip on anybody who has survived Scn but not cured cancer! I just mean: if Scn didn't really seem that bad to you, maybe that says more about you than it does about Scientology.

 

[Free Being Me]

Somebody mind-controlled to me would be a person who believes in thetans, the reactive mind, meat

bodies, the bridge, the arc triangle, the krc triangle, auditing and on so on and on. Which was me.
This is only evident when trying to have a conversation with them as the tek raises it's ugly head and prevents

communication.
The mind fuck is personal, and general.

I agree however I think the $cio cult indoctrination is much deeper than the surface cult labels you've mentioned. It's the cognitive thought processes, the mental machinery a cultist uses with those labels filtering out any perceived negativity towards $cientology. As Hubbard intended.

The inner nature of how and what you think and feel is rewritten into a cult-speak-think-feel-morality, an anthropomorphic like robotic automaton by Elcon's $cientology. An inner prison of belief that dictates your every decision with what becomes self enforcing blinders. The indoctrination is so seductively insidious, it's like a lover wooing you for another tryst. Totalitarian regimes work with the same tools instilling fanatical loyalty and George Orwell's 1984 is a prime example of what Elcon attempted to do. Here's a Margaret Singer quote that describes Elcon and $cientology to a T.

"Modern-day cults and thought-reform groups tend to offer apparent utopias, places where all humankind's ills will be cured. The cults' lure is, if you just come along, all will be fine, and everyone will live happily ever after.

"Down through time, people have written about such promised utopias, but they have also described their downsides, which might be called negative utopias. In 1949, George Orwell wrote about the negative utopia he feared would evolve, perhaps by 1984. Others before him, such as Daniel Defoe, Aldous Huxley, and Jack London, had also written about negative utopias in which political systems gradually curbed and eventually stifled people's most central capacities for reasoning creatively, scientifically, and compassionately. In these real or imagined centralized governments, torture, drugs, and mysterious, esoteric techniques were the feared methods by which people might be controlled.

[HIGHLIGHT]"Orwell's genius was in sensing that combinations of social and psychological techniques are easier, more effective, and cheaper than the gun-to-the-head methods of coercion. Social and psychological persuasion is also less likely to attract attention and thus is less apt to mobilize opposition early and easily from those being manipulated. Orwell reasoned that if a government could control all media and interpersonal communication while simultaneously forcing citizens to speak in a politically controlled jargon, it could blunt independent thinking. If thought could be controlled, then rebellious actions against a regime could be prevented. Not only in his book Nineteen Eighty-Four but also in his essays on politics and the English language, Orwell emphasized the power of words. Words represent thoughts, and without the capability to express thoughts, people lose access to their own thinking."[/HIGHLIGHT]

Dr. Margaret Thaler Singer - Cults In Our Midst
http://www.factnet.org/cults-our-midst

 

[Student of Trinity]

But can't you see the problem with that (even accepting, as I do, that much of that is most likely true)? It makes it absolutely impossible for anyone to come on here and defend the things that they believe did work well for them, in good faith, because you've already asserted that any attempt to do so must be the result of "mind control".

I think both sides of this can be true. If someone breaks up with someone terrible after dating for a year or two, you can say, Hey, they were terrible, you deserve better. But what do you say to someone who's spent twenty years in an abusive relationship? It was bad, but it was also the major relationship of their life. It's horribly sad that it's the closest they've known to love, but still it's the closest they've known to love. Do you say it was all awful? Or do you let them try to salvage what they can?

I really don't know, but my instinct would be not to try to undermine the claims that seem most important to them. I think longtime involvement in a cult must be a similar thing.

EDIT: By this I mean to agree with Cat's Squirrel; I'm quoting to agree, not complain. I guess this might not have been clear.

 

[clamicide]

Scientology is almost all stupid, but few Scientologists are. That's the tragedy.

.

I've deleted the hell out of your post, but omg... THIS! Seriously, this was one reason I got caught. I could NOT believe that such brilliant people would fall for something like a cult, so it had to be ok, right?

Don't get me wrong, there were those who were at the bottom of the intellectual pool... like REALLY down there (and, that doesn't make them less human or their being in a cult less of a tragedy), but I met a lot of brilliant people who called themselves Scientologists. It's kind of why I have a reflexive desire to kick idiots in the balls who say "who the fuck would be stupid enough to fall for that?" when they see a yellow tent.

 

[Cat's Squirrel]

I think both sides of this can be true. If someone breaks up with someone terrible after dating for a year or two, you can say, Hey, they were terrible, you deserve better. But what do you say to someone who's spent twenty years in an abusive relationship? It was bad, but it was also the major relationship of their life. It's horribly sad that it's the closest they've known to love, but still it's the closest they've known to love. Do you say it was all awful? Or do you let them try to salvage what they can?

I really don't know, but my instinct would be not to try to undermine the claims that seem most important to them. I think longtime involvement in a cult must be a similar thing.

EDIT: By this I mean to agree with Cat's Squirrel; I'm quoting to agree, not complain. I guess this might not have been clear.

This may rattle a few cages, so sorry in advance to anyone who's offended but it feels right to say it.

Good point, but it leads to another one; a lot of abusive relationships begin well (when both people are trying hard at the relationship) and then go downhill as the dark side of the abusive partner starts to emerge. By the time it's been going a while there's often very little if anything worth saving at all.

The smart people are the ones who see the warning signs early on (like smelling alcohol on someone's breath when they're drinking secretly) and end the relationship before it starts going seriously downhill. Some people, however, won't - they seem almost wilfully blind to what is happening, even when friends and family try to point out that the person they're involved with is trouble.

In some cases (but not all) even those abusive relationships serve a sick purpose for the abused person - there's a payoff of some kind, even if it's not obvious to outsiders. It might be the twisted pleasure of hearing an alcoholic beg for forgiveness after one more bender, and having someone to feel superior to (Scott Peck mentions this in one of his books as one of the major drivers of masochism in relationships). Still, for some of those in such relationships it's a payoff they're reluctant to let go of.

Similarly, most people who enter an org leave before getting deeply involved.

What are the payoffs for belonging to a cult? Just one, but it's a biggie for those who want it; never having to think or make any decisions for yourself. Everything's decided for you in advance, even down to what your purpose in life should be, what clothes to wear and what to think about everything. Even the knotty issues of politics can be resolved if you only remember "don't reward a downstat). What's not to like?

A lot, which is why we're all here.

 

[Intentionally Blank]

This may rattle a few cages, so sorry in advance to anyone who's offended but it feels right to say it.

Good point, but it leads to another one; a lot of abusive relationships begin well (when both people are trying hard at the relationship) and then go downhill as the dark side of the abusive partner starts to emerge. By the time it's been going a while there's often very little if anything worth saving at all.

The smart people are the ones who see the warning signs early on (like smelling alcohol on someone's breath when they're drinking secretly) and end the relationship before it starts going seriously downhill. Some people, however, won't - they seem almost wilfully blind to what is happening, even when friends and family try to point out that the person they're involved with is trouble.

In some cases (but not all) even those abusive relationships serve a sick purpose for the abused person - there's a payoff of some kind, even if it's not obvious to outsiders. It might be the twisted pleasure of hearing an alcoholic beg for forgiveness after one more bender, and having someone to feel superior to (Scott Peck mentions this in one of his books as one of the major drivers of masochism in relationships). Still, for some of those in such relationships it's a payoff they're reluctant to let go of.

Similarly, most people who enter an org leave before getting deeply involved.

What are the payoffs for belonging to a cult? Just one, but it's a biggie for those who want it; never having to think or make any decisions for yourself. Everything's decided for you in advance, even down to what your purpose in life should be, what clothes to wear and what to think about everything. Even the knotty issues of politics can be resolved if you only remember "don't reward a downstat). What's not to like?

A lot, which is why we're all here.

Agreed. When I worked with women in abusive relationships we used to spend time very gently exploring what the secondary pay-off was for staying in the relationship.

 

[Free Being Me]

But can't you see the problem with that (even accepting, as I do, that much of that is most likely true)? It makes it absolutely impossible for anyone to come on here and defend the things that they believe did work well for them, in good faith, because you've already asserted that any attempt to do so must be the result of "mind control".

It's a total no-lose situation for you, and a no-win situation for them.

Is psychological manipulation so hard to accept? That's what a cult leader does through his cultist doctrine. The power of belief has been used throughout history for political, social, religious, individual, cultist agendas. Sociopaths specialize in using your beliefs against you. So the woo you got from your brief time associated with the cult is by you deemed benevolent?

• Is disconnection breaking families apart a really cool cultist belief?
• Is fair gaming critics like Paulette Cooper and Jerry Armstrong for example a really cool cultist belief?
• Is Abreactive hypno-therapy disguised as "Total Freedom" a really cool cultist belief?
• Is draining people of their incomes and savings a really cool cultist belief?
• Is hiding a teen from his family a really cool cultist belief? (That actually happened to me by the way)
• Is convincing $cio cultists they are "total cause over mest" for a few hundred grand a really cool cultist belief?
• Is the RPF and the Children's RPF really cool cultist beliefs?
• Is Elcon's pseudo-scientific fallacies luring in the unwary for more cultists really cool cultist beliefs?
• Is using lies, intimidation, P.I.'s, going through peoples mail and garbage for dirt really cool cultist beliefs?
• Is $cio's infiltrating the U.S. government for dox because Elcon was scared shitless the U.S. had dirt on him & he didn't want to extradited to France really cool cultist beliefs?
• Is using front groups such as NarCONon, Wise, Applied Scholastics, Crimanon, ABLE, CCHR, to name a few infiltrating our societies with lies to promote $cientology really cool cultist beliefs?
• Is covering up deaths and suicides really cool cultist beliefs?
• Is the fact no clear or oatee has never been manufactured per Elcon's claims yet people still "believe" paying small fortunes for a cert to hang on the wall a really cool cultist belief?
• Is working for pennies on the dollar as slave labor a really cool cultist belief?
• Is human trafficking a really cool cultist belief?
• Is having your passport taken away from you a really cool cultist belief?

Please spare me the "WINS" excuses all $cio's, defenders, and sympathizers trot out as "proof." All the above and more is done through psychological manipulation of decent people deceived into becoming dupes. $cientology is a criminal cult and the people inside no doubt are writing success stories about their "wins" this very moment. Hip hip hurray, wins for all!

“There's nothing easier to control than a person who trusts you. They place their hope in your hands. They place their respect in your hands. What is truly fearsome about such delusional admiration, is the betrayal that you don't see, hidden within the white void of truth.”
- Lionel Suggs

 

[clamicide]

Is psychological manipulation so hard to accept? That's what a cult leader does through his cultist doctrine. The power of belief has been used throughout history for political, social, religious, individual, cultist agendas. Sociopaths specialize in using your beliefs against you. So the woo you got from your brief time associated with the cult is by you deemed benevolent?

• Is disconnection breaking families apart a really cool cultist belief?
• Is fair gaming critics like Paulette Cooper and Jerry Armstrong for example a really cool cultist belief?
• Is Abreactive hypno-therapy disguised as "Total Freedom" a really cool cultist belief?
• Is draining people of their incomes and savings a really cool cultist belief?
• Is hiding a teen from his family a really cool cultist belief? (That actually happened to me by the way)
• Is convincing $cio cultists they are "total cause over mest" for a few hundred grand a really cool cultist belief?
• Is the RPF and the Children's RPF really cool cultist beliefs?
• Is Elcon's pseudo-scientific fallacies luring in the unwary for more cultists really cool cultist beliefs?
• Is using lies, intimidation, P.I.'s, going through peoples mail and garbage for dirt really cool cultist beliefs?
• Is $cio's infiltrating the U.S. government for dox because Elcon was scared shitless the U.S. had dirt on him & he didn't want to extradited to France really cool cultist beliefs?
• Is using front groups such as NarCONon, Wise, Applied Scholastics, Crimanon, ABLE, CCHR, to name a few infiltrating our societies with lies to promote $cientology really cool cultist beliefs?
• Is covering up deaths and suicides really cool cultist beliefs?
• Is the fact no clear or oatee has never been manufactured per Elcon's claims yet people still "believe" paying small fortunes for a cert to hang on the wall a really cool cultist belief?
• Is working for pennies on the dollar as slave labor a really cool cultist belief?
• Is human trafficking a really cool cultist belief?
• Is having your passport taken away from you a really cool cultist belief?

Please spare me the "WINS" excuses all $cio's, defenders, and sympathizers trot out as "proof." All the above and more is done through psychological manipulation of decent people deceived into becoming dupes. $cientology is a criminal cult and the people inside no doubt are writing success stories about their "wins" this very moment. Hip hip hurray, wins for all!

“There's nothing easier to control than a person who trusts you. They place their hope in your hands. They place their respect in your hands. What is truly fearsome about such delusional admiration, is the betrayal that you don't see, hidden within the white void of truth.”
- Lionel Suggs

Psychological manipulation appears to be extremely hard to accept. I was in this honors writing class that was a symposium supposedly filled with the brightest minds, and a good majority of the class seemed to have a psychotic meltdown even considering the idea that Stockholm Syndrome might be valid.

People like to be in control, at least over their own minds and thoughts, even if they consider themselves to be extremely free and open-minded. The idea that someone could fuck with them to the point where they go against what they held to be their core beliefs is frightening. Letting go and admitting that possibly could have happened? Serious door to healing, but hard as hell.

Of course I got "something" out of Scio--if I didn't, I would not have hung out so long, but I fucking lost every true part of myself for many, many years. And, I could have got that "something" elsewhere. Hanging onto the "something"---maybe it makes folks feel better about their "wasted time". I've had to do some serious work on this. OMG. If I hadn't spent those years in the org, where the fuck would I be? It'd be nice to say I got XYZ out of that time....

truth is, nah... biting that bullet was the hardest. Fuck me, it was the hardest (yes, I repeat myself, but it really was that horrible for me).
So, I do try to take the good out of it. I have given more speeches in school on thought reform and discovered Lifton, and being homeless was a hell of an experience, received some PMs about my story here that led me to believe I helped out others in their healing from the hell. Met people I never would have met and opened myself to views I probably never would have considered if I hadn't gone down the cult route.

My son and I are extremely close because we survived that shit together, and he now has his dream job where he works with homeless people on a daily basis. So, fuck... we have often talked about if we could go back in time, if we would let me walk through the doors of the cult again, but... hell... we would not be here where we are today if I hadn't.

And, it's not because there was anything good about the cult (except the people who got caught), it's because it was so fucking evil. I admit, I do sometimes have a hard time when people try to glean out the good, but I do kind of get it. I'm just not one of those people, and I know that I'm not missing anything in throwing away all that cult stuff. It WAS wasted time, and I work to not make it wasted in what I do now, but... without that, yep, it was all wasted time. Hurts, but it's true.

 

[Lermanet_com]

time for this..

And in my sig line I say: "Contrary to general belief, it has been my experience that the more intelligent the subject, the easier it is to induce hypnosis" Ralph Slater - "Hypnotism" May 1950 Large PDF of entire book

ALL THE OLD HYPNOTISTS AGREED UPON THIS OBSERVATION, they said, because

"Smart people are able to control their minds better"

 

[Cat's Squirrel]

• Is disconnection breaking families apart a really cool cultist belief?
• Is fair gaming critics like Paulette Cooper and Jerry Armstrong for example a really cool cultist belief?
• Is Abreactive hypno-therapy disguised as "Total Freedom" a really cool cultist belief?
• Is draining people of their incomes and savings a really cool cultist belief?
• Is hiding a teen from his family a really cool cultist belief? (That actually happened to me by the way)
• Is convincing $cio cultists they are "total cause over mest" for a few hundred grand a really cool cultist belief?
• Is the RPF and the Children's RPF really cool cultist beliefs?
• Is Elcon's pseudo-scientific fallacies luring in the unwary for more cultists really cool cultist beliefs?
• Is using lies, intimidation, P.I.'s, going through peoples mail and garbage for dirt really cool cultist beliefs?
• Is $cio's infiltrating the U.S. government for dox because Elcon was scared shitless the U.S. had dirt on him & he didn't want to extradited to France really cool cultist beliefs?
• Is using front groups such as NarCONon, Wise, Applied Scholastics, Crimanon, ABLE, CCHR, to name a few infiltrating our societies with lies to promote $cientology really cool cultist beliefs?
• Is covering up deaths and suicides really cool cultist beliefs?
• Is the fact no clear or oatee has never been manufactured per Elcon's claims yet people still "believe" paying small fortunes for a cert to hang on the wall a really cool cultist belief?
• Is working for pennies on the dollar as slave labor a really cool cultist belief?
• Is human trafficking a really cool cultist belief?
• Is having your passport taken away from you a really cool cultist belief?

FBM,

It's possible that I'm over sensitive to the way you express yourself on ESMB, which is part of why we keep having problems on here, but to me, all that looks like a personal attack on me, because you're asking me a series of questions to most of which decent and humane people could only give one answer. It's as though you're asking me whether or not rape is a good thing.

But just for the record, the answer in every instance is;

No I don't think so, and nor have I ever said otherwise on here.

Your question about Paulette Cooper is particularly worthy of comment since I corresponded with her (albeit briefly) long before I ever joined ESMB, and that definitely wouldn't have happened had I felt that the CofS was ever justified in attacking her.

 

[Free Being Me]

Psychological manipulation appears to be extremely hard to accept. I was in this honors writing class that was a symposium supposedly filled with the brightest minds, and a good majority of the class seemed to have a psychotic meltdown even considering the idea that Stockholm Syndrome might be valid.

People like to be in control, at least over their own minds and thoughts, even if they consider themselves to be extremely free and open-minded. The idea that someone could fuck with them to the point where they go against what they held to be their core beliefs is frightening. Letting go and admitting that possibly could have happened? Serious door to healing, but hard as hell.

Of course I got "something" out of Scio--if I didn't, I would not have hung out so long, but I fucking lost every true part of myself for many, many years. And, I could have got that "something" elsewhere. Hanging onto the "something"---maybe it makes folks feel better about their "wasted time". I've had to do some serious work on this. OMG. If I hadn't spent those years in the org, where the fuck would I be? It'd be nice to say I got XYZ out of that time....

truth is, nah... biting that bullet was the hardest. Fuck me, it was the hardest (yes, I repeat myself, but it really was that horrible for me).
So, I do try to take the good out of it. I have given more speeches in school on thought reform and discovered Lifton, and being homeless was a hell of an experience. Met people I never would have met and opened myself to views I probably never would have considered if I hadn't gone down the cult route.

My son and I are extremely close because we survived that shit together, and he now has his dream job where he works with homeless people on a daily basis. So, fuck... we have often talked about if we could go back in time, if we would let me walk through the doors of the cult again, but... hell... we would not be here where we are today if I hadn't.

And, it's not because there was anything good about the cult (except the people who got caught), it's because it was so fucking evil. I admit, I do sometimes have a hard time when people try to glean out the good, but I do kind of get it. I'm just not one of those people, and I know that I'm not missing anything in throwing away all that cult stuff.

That symposium sounds like it was very interesting, especially about Stockholm Syndrome. It must have fun participating. My respects to you having your son in your life (so many Ex's don't have that) and his dream job working with the homeless. That's fantastic.

When I write about Elcon, $cientology and $cientologists I'm not writing an accusing diatribe. I'm writing of myself as well. I was completely cozened, fooled, conned, and manipulated. I'm no one special, Elcon fooled me. It's a bitter pill to swallow coming to terms with betrayal. I never blame anyone with labels for having been a $cientologist -you were stupid, an idiot, dumb, a fuck up, none of that. I do research the psychological/emotional tools and impact from having been a cultist in an amatuerish way because that's what for me got me to start peeling the $cio Onion in depth.

I agree it can be frightening realizing the basic concept of self could be so violated. Fuck, that's a hard road of self honesty to walk. I see some people here just write off their cult experience as a con, a mindfuck, a pyramid scheme, what have you but I want to know exactly what was used against me and what were my own self denials that lead me into $cientology. If I can share some insight as to how Elcon made his cult and it helps one person, just one, question and start peeling their $cio Onion then I have in some small way redeemed myself for being in $cientology.

 

[Free Being Me]

FBM, It's possible that I'm over sensitive >snip<

No one is coming after you, FFS. If I had a beef with you I would tell you so please stop trying to read into my every post as an affront with Claire in tow emoticon liking this silly drama nonsense. Thank you.

I used short words so your signature wtf Claire is indeed a wtf. LOL.

 

[clamicide]

That symposium sounds like it was very interesting, especially about Stockholm Syndrome. It must have fun participating. My respects to you having your son in your life (so many Ex's don't have that) and his dream job working with the homeless. That's fantastic.

When I write about Elcon, $cientology and $cientologists I'm not writing an accusing diatribe. I'm writing of myself as well. I was completely cozened, fooled, conned, and manipulated. I'm no one special, Elcon fooled me. It's a bitter pill to swallow coming to terms with betrayal. I never blame anyone with labels for having been a $cientologist -you were stupid, an idiot, dumb, a fuck up, none of that. I do research the psychological/emotional tools and impact from having been a cultist in an amatuerish way because that's what for me got me to start peeling the $cio Onion in depth.

I agree it can be frightening realizing the basic concept of self could be so violated. Fuck, that's a hard road of self honesty to walk. I see some people here just write off their cult experience as a con, a mindfuck, a pyramid scheme, what have you but I want to know exactly what was used against me and what were my own self denials that lead me into $cientology. If I can share some insight as to how Elcon made his cult and it helps one person, just one, question and start peeling their $cio Onion then I have in some small way redeemed myself for being in $cientology.

(I'm going to reply strictly to this post, so most readers might want to skip it).

That symposium became sort of a nightmare. It became readily apparent that most people in the class were going to stick with their pre-conceived notions on EVERYTHING, and I was pissed. As much as I don't like being wrong, I am open to the fact and have done 180 switches when I have been given data and such that makes me change my mind. Coming out of a cult, I learned not to stick with 'true answers'. In a way, I became a bitch in that class. I would start arguing the most ridiculous idea I could come up with at the moment... not as devil's advocate, but just because I was so frustrated with the stuck mindsets. I started out arguing pro-incest, and it got even weirder from there... if you're curious, I'll PM you... this came up with my son the other day, and he was really oddly amused by the whole thing.

I only have one son in my life--the other is in the Sea Org, so I'm still connected to Scio whether I like it or not.

To me, your posts have never come off as accusative (unless I'm forgetting some). I do get pissed off a bit when some folks go into the whole "we were idiots and fooled". It's just too simplistic for me and doesn't really solve anything IMNSHO. Why the fuck were we led into it? How were we led in? Why were people that we admired and considered smart also pulled into this thing (rightfully) called a cult and why do cults tend to have members of "above average" intelligence.

And, yeah, it still bothers me that there is the continued fight to glean the good out of it. Why? If I dated some jerk who beat the hell out of me and took all my money, I could go back to the time he gave me flowers.... and so? Yeah? I might feel better that I dated that jerk. But, I could have bought myself some flowers, but while I was with him, I expected flowers only from him and assumed they were the BEST flowers... and (ok, that analogy kind of sucks, but you probably get my point)

 

[Free Being Me]

(I'm going to reply strictly to this post, so most readers might want to skip it).

That symposium became sort of a nightmare. It became readily apparent that most people in the class were going to stick with their pre-conceived notions on EVERYTHING, and I was pissed. As much as I don't like being wrong, I am open to the fact and have done 180 switches when I have been given data and such that makes me change my mind. Coming out of a cult, I learned not to stick with 'true answers'. In a way, I became a bitch in that class. I would start arguing the most ridiculous idea I could come up with at the moment... not as devil's advocate, but just because I was so frustrated with the stuck mindsets. I started out arguing pro-incest, and it got even weirder from there... if you're curious, I'll PM you... this came up with my son the other day, and he was really oddly amused by the whole thing.

I only have one son in my life--the other is in the Sea Org, so I'm still connected to Scio whether I like it or not.

To me, your posts have never come off as accusative (unless I'm forgetting some). I do get pissed off a bit when some folks go into the whole "we were idiots and fooled". It's just too simplistic for me and doesn't really solve anything IMNSHO. Why the fuck were we led into it? How were we led in? Why were people that we admired and considered smart also pulled into this thing (rightfully) called a cult and why do cults tend to have members of "above average" intelligence.

And, yeah, it still bothers me that there is the continued fight to glean the good out of it. Why? If I dated some jerk who beat the hell out of me and took all my money, I could go back to the time he gave me flowers.... and so? Yeah? I might feel better that I dated that jerk. But, I could have bought myself some flowers, but while I was with him, I expected flowers only from him and assumed they were the BEST flowers... and (ok, that analogy kind of sucks, but you probably get my point)

You have a deep post there and if you don't mind I'm going to think about for awhile before answering. And I have some things to do so please excuse me and I'll reply later.

 

[Leland]

(I'm going to reply strictly to this post, so most readers might want to skip it).

That symposium became sort of a nightmare. It became readily apparent that most people in the class were going to stick with their pre-conceived notions on EVERYTHING, and I was pissed. As much as I don't like being wrong, I am open to the fact and have done 180 switches when I have been given data and such that makes me change my mind. Coming out of a cult, I learned not to stick with 'true answers'. In a way, I became a bitch in that class. I would start arguing the most ridiculous idea I could come up with at the moment... not as devil's advocate, but just because I was so frustrated with the stuck mindsets. I started out arguing pro-incest, and it got even weirder from there... if you're curious, I'll PM you... this came up with my son the other day, and he was really oddly amused by the whole thing.

I only have one son in my life--the other is in the Sea Org, so I'm still connected to Scio whether I like it or not.

To me, your posts have never come off as accusative (unless I'm forgetting some). I do get pissed off a bit when some folks go into the whole "we were idiots and fooled". It's just too simplistic for me and doesn't really solve anything IMNSHO. Why the fuck were we led into it? How were we led in? Why were people that we admired and considered smart also pulled into this thing (rightfully) called a cult and why do cults tend to have members of "above average" intelligence.

And, yeah, it still bothers me that there is the continued fight to glean the good out of it. Why? If I dated some jerk who beat the hell out of me and took all my money, I could go back to the time he gave me flowers.... and so? Yeah? I might feel better that I dated that jerk. But, I could have bought myself some flowers, but while I was with him, I expected flowers only from him and assumed they were the BEST flowers... and (ok, that analogy kind of sucks, but you probably get my point)

I don't know about you....but DMSMH, was what got me.......that and my naivety and youth.....

I was young....about 17, and interested in what life was about. ( I had already been around the world twice....and lived all over the place.)
My father, had been away from home...for 4 years...in Vietnam...and then came home....and left the family for good....divorcing my mother.

OK....I was young, and about to go out on my own, and vulnerable. I didn't know what to do....in the immediate future to start my life off ......

Well, I bought DMSMH used in a thrift shop....read it....and wanted Auditing. (This was 42 years ago....so memories of what happened)

DMSMH, though its been a long time since I've read it.....pretty much says....."HALLELUJHA......the human mind has been figured out.....and you can get your questions and problems FIXED."

I didn't have enough scepticism......I took it at face value.....I thought I could just try it out......and see. I bought 200 hours of auditing.....

But by then.......one has pretty much, taken the bait and hook......

These are just the highlights of what happened.....

AS to your second question.....Above average intelligence....could be taken to mean....that smart people, well read people, realize that the world is complex, life is complex......and Scientology, #1 says, well, things have been figured out....that they have the answers......and could get bamboozeled. Scientology starts out pretty simple....Pretty reasonable......(Dianetic Auditing and How to Study)......then gets more and more complex....and down the rabbit hole its members go.

I doubt anyone ever opened up the OT III materials...read what it said........and just got up and walked out of the Course Room and left Scientology. By then.....its adios muchachos...

I left Scien 13 years ago.....and sad to say, only because they started to attack me. (but in reality...they had been attacking me for 27 years, and I didn't realize it.)

 

[mockingbird]

Cat's squirrel , thanks for answering .

The way out of the " I am not brainwashed " , " yes you are ! " argument is simple.

STUDY mind control and hypnotism and persuasion and logical fallacies.

Read : Rape of the Mind , Freedom of Mind , Recovery From Cults , the True Believer by Eric Hoffer ,the Cult Papers by A Orange ( free online ) , Hypnotism Comes of Age , the criteria of thought reform by Robert J Lifton ( just a short list ) the online works of Jon Atack , the Lermanet.com library on hypnosis and the confusion technique . Read about stacking realities and embedded commands from NLP free online.

Watch free online videos of Derren Brown and Dantalion Jones.

Look online at the logical fallacies I have listed as symptoms of PISSED AND others and learn how liars use them to confuse and deceive you.

If you are not brainwashed you SHOULD be able to LOOK at these things.

In psychoanalysis and other therapies many therapists note that the content of the subconscious RESISTS close examination , even after trust is built up.

The implanted commands of Scientology are rigged so Scientologists can not look at both sides to see if there is any basis for the claim of brainwashing .

If you know you're being brainwashed it won't work as intended.

To have an intelligent debate about mind control you need to understand the methods and theories in the subject.

It's that simple , if you want to debate any subject in depth you need to understand it's contents.

This does not mean any individual is or is not brainwashed by name .

It means to deny something you need to understand what you are denying .