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PISSED ,IT'S NOT YOUR FAULT !!!

Why do you obliviously bang on telling cult survivors how "good" the cult leader and his cult were? It's like going to a women's refuge center telling the women there how "good" their rapist/abuser was. That's incredibly stupid and heartless. People are suffering the deaths of loved ones, separated from family, going to counseling, escaping $cientology this very minute, trying to find themselves again rebuilding their lives all because of Elcon's cult. Talk about clueless.

because there is a spectrum of opinion on hubbard and his work FBM

you stayed thirty years

i only stayed four. i had a great time while i was there. i knew some fine people, many of them here on this board. and i learned much of enduring value which i have used with very good effect for forty years

why should i be restrained from speaking the truth i have lived?
 

Gib

Crusader
As an Ex and critic I cannot in good faith recommend, endorse, nor forward anything Elcon, nor the $cio spin-offs $cio's come up with. John Galusha was a $cio from 1953 leaving $cientology in 1987 starting Idenics, his spin on Elcon's con as an Indie Guru. I don't prop up Guru's of any stripe and it would be disservice doing so to those leaving the cult bubble.

actually Galusha left Scio in 1964, just a year b/4 KSW and other mind controlling policies by Hubbard. I wonder if John saw something or realized something that caused him to leave? I don't know.

1n 1980 when Mike met with John for the first time, he told Mike Goldstein he wanted nothing to do the scientology organization.
a snip from: http://exscn.net/content/view/177/95/1/2/index.html

"I sat on their couch going over my history and my entire evaluation and program. I jabbered on for over an hour. John sat stoic, listening to what I was saying but making no comment. When I was done, John told me that he hadn't been interested in doing anything with the organization of Scientology for years, but that he was interested now in helping me. However, he informed me that that course that Diana had referred to, was just an extension course like the one being delivered at Pubs, with the sole purpose of getting people on lines. Additionally, a course like I wanted had never existed. When he saw my spirits drop, he went on to stay that he could easily produce a course that would accomplish the purpose of training competent Book One auditors."

If one cares to the read the rest of the story, another bit of history of the COS comes into view. It wasn't until 1985 I believe that John started researching again and went in another direction than that of TIR or Knownledgism, the freezone, etc.

http://exscn.net/content/view/180/85/1/0/index.html

PS. It is my belief that if a lurker reads the series by Goldstein and the idenics book, and connects dots, they will lose the scientology mindset. Or at least help. Whether a person does any Idenics, I don't care. So my word choice of promote is a bit off, maybe it should be made aware.

When I got deb cook email in Jan 2012, I then proceeded to read a lot of stuff on the net, and when I stumbled upon Goldstein's story and his book, there went the scientology bridge, poof, I as-ised it. And then I started posting here on ESMB, July 2012.
 

Free Being Me

Crusader
they stick not just because of the manipulation but because there really is some great stuff in the lrh/csi imprimatur

i left pretty quickly. i'm in on the bill of rights big time and it was being violated. i wouldn't go along with that no matter how good the materials were. but i am not going to deny there's great stuff in the materials

Why do you obliviously bang on telling cult survivors how "good" the cult leader and his cult were? It's like going to a women's refuge center telling the women there how "good" their rapist/abuser was. That's incredibly stupid and heartless. People are suffering the deaths of loved ones, separated from family, going to counseling, escaping $cientology this very minute, trying to find themselves again rebuilding their lives all because of Elcon's cult. Talk about clueless.

because there is a spectrum of opinion on hubbard and his work FBM

you stayed thirty years

i only stayed four. i had a great time while i was there. i knew some fine people, many of them here on this board. and i learned much of enduring value which i have used with very good effect for forty years

why should i be restrained from speaking the truth i have lived?

You just don't get it. :duh: People have died, committed suicide, had their finances drained, miss their loved ones, had years of cult recovery all due to Elcon and DM's $cientology and you insist on flaunting your cult dementia in peoples faces here. Sorry but that's soulless and devoid of any compassion. Your "truth" is shit stirring for thread view stats and truth be told I'm tired of you. You defend cult abuse, child abuse, domestic abuse, in or out of the cult and I will reiterate what I said on another thread, if only I was a mod.
 
You just don't get it. :duh: People have died, committed suicide, had their finances drained, miss their loved ones, had years of cult recovery all due to Elcon and DM's $cientology and you insist on flaunting your cult dementia in peoples faces here. Sorry but that's soulless and devoid of any compassion. Your "truth" is shit stirring for thread view stats and truth be told I'm tired of you. You defend cult abuse, child abuse, domestic abuse, in or out of the cult and I will reiterate what I said on another thread, if only I was a mod.

and you can go back to said thread for my response
 

mockingbird

Silver Meritorious Patron
See , the problem with blowing off the Commander Birdsong's of the world is they are the people most in need of help.

It's like in drug rehab how the clients are often rude , resentful , projecting , dishonest , immoral etc. and very unpleasant human beings DUE TO THEIR ADDICTIONS !

Bluntly the source of the harm Scientology does is in the ideas in the minds of Scientologists , and even many exes or indies or freezoners.

I don't suggest mass commitment or arrest or anything that prone to abuse and injustice.

Education and VOLUNTARY exit counseling are the only way to go for individuals already affected by Scientology.

The materials to educate them , in my opinion are not even made yet !

I believe books and booklets and videos exposing as much as possible how the con works and exactly what is the real source and purpose of each step a person takes in Scientology need to be compiled.

I mean so extensively as to cover ALL grade chart and other cult techniques - one by one .

I mean in such simple language that a person of BELOW average intelligence can easily understand !

Much of what I've studied has required learning about psychology , and hypnosis in significant detail and depth on my own just to be able to understand the materials and language !

Many terms and conditions in hypnosis are not what they are in regular English and you will be quite lost if you don't do your homework along the way.

Some people look at broad terms , like " well LRH OR COB have suppressive intentions ! , without which I can use the tech to help! "

Well , I'm sure you have good intentions , BUT what you are saying relies on magical thinking !

Mind control , in my experience and opinion is a mechanistic effect .

In other words it follows rules as precise as gravity or any other physical force or reaction.

If an apple falls I don't attribute that to the apple or anything else's intention .

If you use hypnotic mind control techniques REGARDLESS of your intention on people if they are without an almost encyclopedic knowledge and equal understanding of what you are really doing it will be just the same as Scientology !

Our minds are built with certain weaknesses and vulnerabilities and ways to bypass the critical factor and free will and the method achieves that , NOT the intention or will of the user.

Really will may be an inappropriate term for the ability to resist mind control . In my research thought stopping and resistance are very similar in effect and involve associations in the mind not a supernatural or innate force.

Another way to put this is if you said " oh yeah the war killed my cousin , war is bad " - and you did not notice getting shot killed your cousin and you went out believing shooting people " without suppressive intentions " would not harm them ! Uh , it most definitely will !

The only hope for this subject ( recovery from Scientology )and effectiveness in dealing with it to advance is a lot of tremendous individual effort to be thoroughly educated about it , and unfortunately this is not just one or two subjects to specialize in.

You will miss most of the subject and be largely ineffective in exit counseling ( including self exit counseling )or even explaining Scientology if you ONLY study any one or two of the following : critical thinking , logical fallacies , sources LRH stole from , normal hypnosis , LRH and his insanity ,the abuses and crimes in Scientology many basic ideas and theories in psychology and psychiatry , mass movements or any of several other aspects of Scientology.

It's similar to how I heard a mechanic explain that he needed to understand as much as A HVAC guy for the heating and cooling system and a computer guy for the computer and two or three other professions in order to understand and work on my car.

Some things require a lot of knowledge and frankly most people never get the knowledge to take apart Scientology ; some expert psychiatrists and psychologists have done a good job ( like for the Anderson report ) , BUT they then leave all the info in language so obtuse and complex for laymen that the research is largely ineffective as an educational aid to others , except equally educated pros , who would also see right through Scientology!

The job of translating this and doing independent verification is daunting , but very needed.

I have seen very few sources that even identify study tech as harmful , let alone a precise compound mind control array as I see it !

Some experts in hypnosis/language patterns just casually act as if it's so obvious anyone should see it , BUT they have expertise in persuasion or communication .

Some cult experts just say " well cults use self-hypnosis " as if that is enough explanation . But in Scientology it is so well hidden that for many Scientologists they will need a much more detailed explanation to understand , let alone recover.

See if you cut out anybody who is in or partway a believer you don't just neglect them , which at times is simply cruel ,you also leave the seeds for a future with Scientology or a successor.

This technology will be used by someone in the future , probably altered and under another name, IF widespread education does not happen.

I don't want somebody in fifty or a hundred years to use Miscavology or something on the population of a country or countries to establish a totalitarian hell .

I have met people who BEGGED to go back on the RPF afetr years of abuse in the Sea Org .

I have met people with top five , or even top one percent , IQs who blame themselves for ALL failures in Scientology.

I have known people in for twenty to forty years who NEVER see anything wrong , and die true believers !

The future DEMANDS far more and in some ways far smarter efforts to combat Scientology and totalism in other forms.

The official cult shrinks , BUT offshoots and future threats will survive.

In Scientology your mind is a prison ; to beat it many minds must be the weapon .

The work has been begun by Lermanet.com ( Arnie Lerma ) and Jon Atack , BUT there is still a LONG , LONG way to go .

Any effective help would be appreciated .
 
Riiiiiiiiiight.



From the 1946 'Affirmations':


You cannot now accumulate karma for you are a master adept. Your voice is low and compelling to them... destroys their will to resist...

Your writing has a deep hypnotic effect on people and they are always pleased with what you write...

Your psychology is advanced and true and wonderful. It hypnotizes people. It predicts their emotions, for you are their ruler.



From 'Hymn of Asia', written in 1955:

I can be addressed
But in our temples best
Address me and you address
Lord Buddha.
Address Lord Buddha
And you then address
Metteyya.



1963:

LRHBust.jpg

hymn to asia caused a bit of a stir when it was published as i was told in SF when i was starting. but. it's a poem. poetic liscence. no problem. and phil spickler who was on staff at fcdc in the fifties is my source on ron at that time often saying "i'm just a man"

then in '68 you get an apparent statement of messiahhiod in red and white. this is a whole different animal...
 
You just don't get it. :duh: People have died, committed suicide, had their finances drained, miss their loved ones, had years of cult recovery all due to Elcon and DM's $cientology and you insist on flaunting your cult dementia in peoples faces here. Sorry but that's soulless and devoid of any compassion. Your "truth" is shit stirring for thread view stats and truth be told I'm tired of you. You defend cult abuse, child abuse, domestic abuse, in or out of the cult and I will reiterate what I said on another thread, if only I was a mod.

i don't get it?

hello-oh...

my son is dead. greg wilhere blocked my path to my son while he was being treated for leukemia because i'm an out-ethics db etc. etc.

and i don't get it?

Co$ suxxx

but...

if i had been able to get to my son in time, what i know of auditing, the tone scale, etc might have made a life and death difference. he died of leukemia. when i was born in 1949 childhood leukemia was an automatic death sentence. today 85% survive and then it was 80%. he was a very strong courageous child. he should have beat leukemia. even if not then what i know of auditing would have made a big difference in his quality of life. it sure as hell was huge for my lifelong best friend

you, FBM, are the one who is not getting something in this discussion
 
See , the problem with blowing off the Commander Birdsong's of the world is they are the people most in need of help.

It's like in drug rehab how the clients are often rude , resentful , projecting , dishonest , immoral etc. and very unpleasant human beings DUE TO THEIR ADDICTIONS !

Bluntly the source of the harm Scientology does is in the ideas in the minds of Scientologists , and even many exes or indies or freezoners.

I don't suggest mass commitment or arrest or anything that prone to abuse and injustice.

Education and VOLUNTARY exit counseling are the only way to go for individuals already affected by Scientology.

The materials to educate them , in my opinion are not even made yet !

I believe books and booklets and videos exposing as much as possible how the con works and exactly what is the real source and purpose of each step a person takes in Scientology need to be compiled.

I mean so extensively as to cover ALL grade chart and other cult techniques - one by one .

I mean in such simple language that a person of BELOW average intelligence can easily understand !

Much of what I've studied has required learning about psychology , and hypnosis in significant detail and depth on my own just to be able to understand the materials and language !

Many terms and conditions in hypnosis are not what they are in regular English and you will be quite lost if you don't do your homework along the way.

Some people look at broad terms , like " well LRH OR COB have suppressive intentions ! , without which I can use the tech to help! "

Well , I'm sure you have good intentions , BUT what you are saying relies on magical thinking !

Mind control , in my experience and opinion is a mechanistic effect .

In other words it follows rules as precise as gravity or any other physical force or reaction.

If an apple falls I don't attribute that to the apple or anything else's intention .

If you use hypnotic mind control techniques REGARDLESS of your intention on people if they are without an almost encyclopedic knowledge and equal understanding of what you are really doing it will be just the same as Scientology !

Our minds are built with certain weaknesses and vulnerabilities and ways to bypass the critical factor and free will and the method achieves that , NOT the intention or will of the user.

Really will may be an inappropriate term for the ability to resist mind control . In my research thought stopping and resistance are very similar in effect and involve associations in the mind not a supernatural or innate force.

Another way to put this is if you said " oh yeah the war killed my cousin , war is bad " - and you did not notice getting shot killed your cousin and you went out believing shooting people " without suppressive intentions " would not harm them ! Uh , it most definitely will !

The only hope for this subject ( recovery from Scientology )and effectiveness in dealing with it to advance is a lot of tremendous individual effort to be thoroughly educated about it , and unfortunately this is not just one or two subjects to specialize in.

You will miss most of the subject and be largely ineffective in exit counseling ( including self exit counseling )or even explaining Scientology if you ONLY study any one or two of the following : critical thinking , logical fallacies , sources LRH stole from , normal hypnosis , LRH and his insanity ,the abuses and crimes in Scientology many basic ideas and theories in psychology and psychiatry , mass movements or any of several other aspects of Scientology.

It's similar to how I heard a mechanic explain that he needed to understand as much as A HVAC guy for the heating and cooling system and a computer guy for the computer and two or three other professions in order to understand and work on my car.

Some things require a lot of knowledge and frankly most people never get the knowledge to take apart Scientology ; some expert psychiatrists and psychologists have done a good job ( like for the Anderson report ) , BUT they then leave all the info in language so obtuse and complex for laymen that the research is largely ineffective as an educational aid to others , except equally educated pros , who would also see right through Scientology!

The job of translating this and doing independent verification is daunting , but very needed.

I have seen very few sources that even identify study tech as harmful , let alone a precise compound mind control array as I see it !

Some experts in hypnosis/language patterns just casually act as if it's so obvious anyone should see it , BUT they have expertise in persuasion or communication .

Some cult experts just say " well cults use self-hypnosis " as if that is enough explanation . But in Scientology it is so well hidden that for many Scientologists they will need a much more detailed explanation to understand , let alone recover.

See if you cut out anybody who is in or partway a believer you don't just neglect them , which at times is simply cruel ,you also leave the seeds for a future with Scientology or a successor.

This technology will be used by someone in the future , probably altered and under another name, IF widespread education does not happen.

I don't want somebody in fifty or a hundred years to use Miscavology or something on the population of a country or countries to establish a totalitarian hell .

I have met people who BEGGED to go back on the RPF afetr years of abuse in the Sea Org .

I have met people with top five , or even top one percent , IQs who blame themselves for ALL failures in Scientology.

I have known people in for twenty to forty years who NEVER see anything wrong , and die true believers !

The future DEMANDS far more and in some ways far smarter efforts to combat Scientology and totalism in other forms.

The official cult shrinks , BUT offshoots and future threats will survive.

In Scientology your mind is a prison ; to beat it many minds must be the weapon .

The work has been begun by Lermanet.com ( Arnie Lerma ) and Jon Atack , BUT there is still a LONG , LONG way to go .

Any effective help would be appreciated .

MB...

i see plenty wrong...

the thing was much better when i was in and i still had reservations

but...

what's good in it is pretty damn good

nice to know you aren't going to have me rounded up...
 

Leland

Crusader
Want to say a few things about Hymn of Asia.

I don't know when it first came out...but I bought a copy around 1973.

I kinda shrugged it off. No one (in the church that I associated with really talked about it......and I suppose we could have....as it was not "Tech."

Anyway. Couple of things. First It was a book, by LRH....so he was guarenteed sales to public and Orgs at the time.....in other words....a money maker.

2nd. It is not really talked about. IMO....if the public at large thought or knew that this guy LRH....was claiming to be Buddha....I think he would be a laughing stock....

Do any Buddhists know about this? Is it broad public information?

I think, Scientologists may talk about Scien in the narrow, (whats acceptable) good roads and fair weather way they do......(to others) But I can't recall anyone announcing that LRH thought he was reincarnated Buddha.

I think the Org of $cientology views this as Out Pr.....but don't know.

I think even Scientologists can't really swallow this one from LRH....and are so embarrassed about it......they won't even talk about it. IMO

The Org of $.....do not sell this book anymore.

Does the News media know about this?

It is an example of the "Scatter gun" method. A shotgun.....is also called a scatter gun. When it shoots, it is not one bullet...but dozens of tiny pellets....and they scatter. I think this is what LRH was doing.....just blasting away in the scatter technique....to hit as much as he could.
 

cleared cannibal

Silver Meritorious Patron
Want to say a few things about Hymn of Asia.

I don't know when it first came out...but I bought a copy around 1973.

I kinda shrugged it off. No one (in the church that I associated with really talked about it......and I suppose we could have....as it was not "Tech."

Anyway. Couple of things. First It was a book, by LRH....so he was guarenteed sales to public and Orgs at the time.....in other words....a money maker.

2nd. It is not really talked about. IMO....if the public at large thought or knew that this guy LRH....was claiming to be Buddha....I think he would be a laughing stock....

Do any Buddhists know about this? Is it broad public information?

I think, Scientologists may talk about Scien in the narrow, (whats acceptable) good roads and fair weather way they do......(to others) But I can't recall anyone announcing that LRH thought he was reincarnated Buddha.

I think the Org of $cientology views this as Out Pr.....but don't know.

I think even Scientologists can't really swallow this one from LRH....and are so embarrassed about it......they won't even talk about it. IMO

The Org of $.....do not sell this book anymore.

Does the News media know about this?

[It is an example of the "Scatter gun" method. A shotgun.....is also called a scatter gun. When it shoots, it is not one bullet...but dozens of tiny pellets....and they scatter. I think this is what LRH was doing.....just blasting away in the scatter technique....to hit as much as he could.
]

I like throwing shit and see what sticks.
 

Leland

Crusader
Riiiiiiiiiight.



From the 1946 'Affirmations':

You cannot now accumulate karma for you are a master adept. Your voice is low and compelling to them... destroys their will to resist...

Your writing has a deep hypnotic effect on people and they are always pleased with what you write...

Your psychology is advanced and true and wonderful. It hypnotizes people. It predicts their emotions, for you are their ruler.



From 'Hymn of Asia', written in 1955:
I can be addressed
But in our temples best
Address me and you address
Lord Buddha.
Address Lord Buddha
And you then address
Metteyya.



1963:

LRHBust.jpg

Veda, your post is so sublime...so full of information, and pointers to information, and a road map to what what done.....it is amazing.

A book could be written about just what you have posted above.

Thank you
 

clamicide

Gold Meritorious Patron
I've read articles that people who become involved with cults are generally intelligent, well meaning folk yet have blind spots and vulnerabilities making them targets. A cult ($cientology is very good at this) uses grooming, a predatory act of maneuvering another individual into a position that makes them more isolated, dependent, likely to trust, and more vulnerable to abusive behavior. Add love bombing to the mix and that's premeditated predatory manipulation. In essence each of us was to some degree groomed and love bombed into joining $cientology.


[HIGHLIGHT]People do NOT join Cults - They are Recruited![/HIGHLIGHT]

“Aren’t Cult members simply weird and gullible?” “I would NEVER get tricked into joining a Cult!”

Cult members can come from all social backgrounds, age groups and personality types. They are usually idealistic, intelligent, well educated and from a good family background - anyone can fall victim to sophisticated Cult recruitment techniques that are constantly being changed and refined.

Most people are unprepared, either through education or personal experience, for the powerful impact of deceptive Cult methodology. People only remain in Cults due to the deceptive use of Mind Control and psychological coercion.

Cults will often target people who:
  • Are away from home for the first time
  • University and College Students
  • Have suffered a romantic breakup
  • Have had a death in the Family
  • Have personal problems
  • Are at a vulnerable point in their lives
  • Elderly people living alone

It's very common for abusee's to defend their abuser(s). Factor in the mental/emotional manipulation of $cientology/$cientologists and that's where the denial and defense comes into play when discussing $cientology. The sum total of Elcon's Indoctrination runs deep, it's supposed too and willful ignorance plays a part as well. The cognitive dissonance resulting from Elcon's cult is phenomenal and sadly that can't be reasoned with, it's so individualistic when a person finally starts to decompress and Onion Peel (if ever) that process can't be hurried (and believe me I wish I knew of a way to do just that). Witness the very lengthy all hell breaks loose threads here of people defending Elcon/$cientology. Being out and deprogrammed it's morbidly fascinating watching people defend Elcon/$cientology, a heartless sociopath who used the choicest Machiavellian methods of thought reform to utterly deceive and abuse his followers. And people defend that!!!!!! Incredible.



A beautiful, insightful, intelligent, and authentic post as always, Sally. You do see right to heart of the matter concisely and precisely. I copy/pasted your post to a doc so I can read it in the future. Thank you.

On a more personal note I know you lost your best truest friend, Fummy and from the Choir thread perhaps some frustration(?) so I would like to say you being here is a blessing and your contributions to ESMB are priceless.

You know what is interesting, is that I don't doubt that love-bombing exists, and I remember a few Div 6 regges that might have fit the bill at doing this, but this just does not fit into my personal experience. I met people who seriously believed that Scientology was the answer, and were just so happy to find a kindred soul. It might have mirrored love-bombing in some ways, but those people also were close friends down the line. We were all part of something that we felt had major flaws, but that was because it was all off-source or out-tech, and we somehow would fix it. We really did care for each other rather deeply.

I don't quite see it in your references, but I fit the bill of the person who was searching for deeper meaning and kindred spirits--and I have seen that described in cult literature.
 

clamicide

Gold Meritorious Patron
Mockingbird, I have to say, your thread and all the posts in it, seriously hit the spot with me.
In my own personal quest of researching Scientology and being able to help people who want out, I'd like to believe that I'm properly equipped with all information and knowledge necessary and that I'm getting closer and closer to understanding what Scientologists and Exes are going through. But I can never
really know, not having being there myself. And sometimes I have those dark moments when I simply lose patience. I think about my loved one, think about other Scientologists I got to contact over time, and I get angry- "these are amazing, intelligent and brilliant people, and yet they stick with Scientology on and on! They are voluntarily blind, it's their own fault, they know damn well what's going on around them, and they simply don't care!"
A few days ago I was in my "normal, scholarly patient" mood, read the OP of this thread, nodded to myself and left it there. Than this morning, I got into my
"It's their fault and they're pissing me off!" round. I actually considered venting about it in my own thread here, but then I remembered this thread, and felt I should read the OP again, and all the rest of the posts.
Thank you Mocingbird for starting it and thank you posters for participating, to me it's one of the most helpful threads I've ever encountered on ESMB :flowers:

I was going to leave just a click of like or thanks, but this post really touched me. It's nice to hear someone admit that they don't get it, yet they come back. I'd probably never get how fucked up we 'could be' to fall for such a thing if it hadn't happened to me. It's why I do try to talk about cults when I'm up to it. Bravado of how none of us would ever be that stupid really is how they succeed. It takes guts to admit to being pissed off at us for falling for it, yet take another look. Thanks.
 

clamicide

Gold Meritorious Patron
I'm going to leave this as a general reply. I don't think that defending Scientology is an easy position. And, I really did want to when I first came out. I saw good done in its name, and using tech, but most of the good later turned out to be generic truths or the abilities of the person applying the said things.

I also saw countless abuses. I wanted like hell for it to be because of the "Co$" or management or mu or whatfuckingever. ANYTHING except that it was the natural outcome of Scientology and the tech as Ron set it out to be.

I don't remember the exact day when it hit me, as time sort of slipped away, but I remember the absolute sickness I felt. All the good times of the pc s who thanked me for saving their life. In some ways, I did it in SPITE of the tech. My ex (who, to this day, I think is probably one of the kindest souls I ever met has given relief to so many people-- often as Chaplain}, and it wasn't because of tech, it was he fucking cared). I have a son who turned his back on Scio completely and helps people in ways that amazes me--I have people finding out that he's my son and telling me how proud I must be. And, I am. He was a cult auditor, and it almost killed him, and somehow, that escapade didn't kill off his desire to help people.

What is hardest about facing that Scientology is the wrong path in so many ways is knowing you went down a path that dragged friends and family into this insane morass. It'd be SO nice to look at all the good an nice... but, I finally had to face that wasn't the truth about any of it. I ripped apart lives because I fell into the con--not of the Co$, not of new management, but of fucking Scientology.

I'm sorry. It's a fucking lie. Even crack cocaine makes some people feel amazing--and believe it or not, I've met folks that have felt that chronic problems were cured by judicial use--- no joke.

Scientology kills. Sometimes bodies, sometimes souls, and sometimes rationality. I'm too old to mince words.
 

Intentionally Blank

Scientology Widow
I'm going to leave this as a general reply. I don't think that defending Scientology is an easy position. And, I really did want to when I first came out. I saw good done in its name, and using tech, but most of the good later turned out to be generic truths or the abilities of the person applying the said things.

I also saw countless abuses. I wanted like hell for it to be because of the "Co$" or management or mu or whatfuckingever. ANYTHING except that it was the natural outcome of Scientology and the tech as Ron set it out to be.

I don't remember the exact day when it hit me, as time sort of slipped away, but I remember the absolute sickness I felt. All the good times of the pc s who thanked me for saving their life. In some ways, I did it in SPITE of the tech. My ex (who, to this day, I think is probably one of the kindest souls I ever met has given relief to so many people-- often as Chaplain}, and it wasn't because of tech, it was he fucking cared). I have a son who turned his back on Scio completely and helps people in ways that amazes me--I have people finding out that he's my son and telling me how proud I must be. And, I am. He was a cult auditor, and it almost killed him, and somehow, that escapade didn't kill off his desire to help people.

What is hardest about facing that Scientology is the wrong path in so many ways is knowing you went down a path that dragged friends and family into this insane morass. It'd be SO nice to look at all the good an nice... but, I finally had to face that wasn't the truth about any of it. I ripped apart lives because I fell into the con--not of the Co$, not of new management, but of fucking Scientology.

I'm sorry. It's a fucking lie. Even crack cocaine makes some people feel amazing--and believe it or not, I've met folks that have felt that chronic problems were cured by judicial use--- no joke.

Scientology kills. Sometimes bodies, sometimes souls, and sometimes rationality. I'm too old to mince words.

What a fantastic post. Thank you.
 

Claire Swazey

Spokeshole, fence sitter
I'm going to leave this as a general reply. I don't think that defending Scientology is an easy position. And, I really did want to when I first came out. I saw good done in its name, and using tech, but most of the good later turned out to be generic truths or the abilities of the person applying the said things.

I also saw countless abuses. I wanted like hell for it to be because of the "Co$" or management or mu or whatfuckingever. ANYTHING except that it was the natural outcome of Scientology and the tech as Ron set it out to be.

I don't remember the exact day when it hit me, as time sort of slipped away, but I remember the absolute sickness I felt. All the good times of the pc s who thanked me for saving their life. In some ways, I did it in SPITE of the tech. My ex (who, to this day, I think is probably one of the kindest souls I ever met has given relief to so many people-- often as Chaplain}, and it wasn't because of tech, it was he fucking cared). I have a son who turned his back on Scio completely and helps people in ways that amazes me--I have people finding out that he's my son and telling me how proud I must be. And, I am. He was a cult auditor, and it almost killed him, and somehow, that escapade didn't kill off his desire to help people.

What is hardest about facing that Scientology is the wrong path in so many ways is knowing you went down a path that dragged friends and family into this insane morass. It'd be SO nice to look at all the good an nice... but, I finally had to face that wasn't the truth about any of it. I ripped apart lives because I fell into the con--not of the Co$, not of new management, but of fucking Scientology.

I'm sorry. It's a fucking lie. Even crack cocaine makes some people feel amazing--and believe it or not, I've met folks that have felt that chronic problems were cured by judicial use--- no joke.

Scientology kills. Sometimes bodies, sometimes souls, and sometimes rationality. I'm too old to mince words.

I personally see nothing wrong with decrying the bad while looking at other aspects and perspectives.

I'm no absolutist and those who feel that's bad just aren't thinking it out.

That being said, I think there's more than enough bad on the subject and in Hubbard's history as to make the best choice evident.
 

Gib

Crusader
I personally see nothing wrong with decrying the bad while looking at other aspects and perspectives.

I'm no absolutist and those who feel that's bad just aren't thinking it out.

That being said, I think there's more than enough bad on the subject and in Hubbard's history as to make the best choice evident.

I don't understand what you wrote. Can you say it an another way?

I'm not being a joker here. I just do not get what you are saying.
 

Mookster

Patron
I personally see nothing wrong with decrying the bad while looking at other aspects and perspectives.

In that vein, can I just say that I have a sort of wry appreciation in a mordantly humorous sort of way for the fact that LRH is the only dude I know of who asked the question, "Hey wanna buy a bridge?" thousands of times and more often than not, the answer was "Yes please".
 

Claire Swazey

Spokeshole, fence sitter
I don't understand what you wrote. Can you say it an another way?

I'm not being a joker here. I just do not get what you are saying.

I was responding to Clamicide's post though I did have some other past discussions in mind. I was discussing taking an all or nothing black and white approach vs the approach I tend to take and which has been objected to by some.

I find that with quite a few exes and other critics, discussion of Scn and Hubbard, etc, tends to be a lot like discussing politics with some people I've known and others whose posts in various venues I've seen- who are of a certain political stance and rarely grant quarter to the other side of the coin or those on it. And everything's all "liberals this" "republicans that".

The post to which I responded presented the point of view that it's really about something being just evil and bad, no point in discussing any positives. I get that point of view. It's fine with me that some people feel that way. Contrary to what's been said, since I left the cult, I have never put anyone in a killfile or ignore or been upset because they hated all things scientological. Not for that reason. However, if someone else has a different way of looking at things- which I do- well, that's as valid as anyone else's approaches.

It's really kind of subjective anyway. One could never expect someone brought up in slavery in the cult to ever think "oh hey, wow, there's this nice idea about native state or I used a demo kit once and it seemed to help." But what one should expect and understand is this: people are largely shaped by their experiences as well as by genetics and personality and free will. You put all that in the mix and you're gonna get different views about the same topic of discussion.
 

Free Being Me

Crusader
I've read articles that people who become involved with cults are generally intelligent, well meaning folk yet have blind spots and vulnerabilities making them targets. A cult ($cientology is very good at this) uses grooming, a predatory act of maneuvering another individual into a position that makes them more isolated, dependent, likely to trust, and more vulnerable to abusive behavior. Add love bombing to the mix and that's premeditated predatory manipulation. In essence each of us was to some degree groomed and love bombed into joining $cientology.


[HIGHLIGHT]People do NOT join Cults - They are Recruited![/HIGHLIGHT]

“Aren’t Cult members simply weird and gullible?” “I would NEVER get tricked into joining a Cult!”

Cult members can come from all social backgrounds, age groups and personality types. They are usually idealistic, intelligent, well educated and from a good family background - anyone can fall victim to sophisticated Cult recruitment techniques that are constantly being changed and refined.

Most people are unprepared, either through education or personal experience, for the powerful impact of deceptive Cult methodology. People only remain in Cults due to the deceptive use of Mind Control and psychological coercion.

Cults will often target people who:
  • Are away from home for the first time
  • University and College Students
  • Have suffered a romantic breakup
  • Have had a death in the Family
  • Have personal problems
  • Are at a vulnerable point in their lives
  • Elderly people living alone

It's very common for abusee's to defend their abuser(s). Factor in the mental/emotional manipulation of $cientology/$cientologists and that's where the denial and defense comes into play when discussing $cientology. The sum total of Elcon's Indoctrination runs deep, it's supposed too and willful ignorance plays a part as well. The cognitive dissonance resulting from Elcon's cult is phenomenal and sadly that can't be reasoned with, it's so individualistic when a person finally starts to decompress and Onion Peel (if ever) that process can't be hurried (and believe me I wish I knew of a way to do just that). Witness the very lengthy all hell breaks loose threads here of people defending Elcon/$cientology. Being out and deprogrammed it's morbidly fascinating watching people defend Elcon/$cientology, a heartless sociopath who used the choicest Machiavellian methods of thought reform to utterly deceive and abuse his followers. And people defend that!!!!!! Incredible.

A beautiful, insightful, intelligent, and authentic post as always, Sally. You do see right to heart of the matter concisely and precisely. I copy/pasted your post to a doc so I can read it in the future. Thank you.

On a more personal note I know you lost your best truest friend, Fummy and from the Choir thread perhaps some frustration(?) so I would like to say you being here is a blessing and your contributions to ESMB are priceless.

You know what is interesting, is that I don't doubt that love-bombing exists, and I remember a few Div 6 regges that might have fit the bill at doing this, but this just does not fit into my personal experience. I met people who seriously believed that Scientology was the answer, and were just so happy to find a kindred soul. It might have mirrored love-bombing in some ways, but those people also were close friends down the line. We were all part of something that we felt had major flaws, but that was because it was all off-source or out-tech, and we somehow would fix it. We really did care for each other rather deeply.

I don't quite see it in your references, but I fit the bill of the person who was searching for deeper meaning and kindred spirits--and I have seen that described in cult literature.

No matter what your intentions were (or mine or anyone else's) joining a cult, a cult uses you against yourself. The desire to belong, find kindred spirits, appeal to the innate goodness within ones heart, appeal to reason, supposed "truth" for the taking, help others, be part of something more than yourself. $cientology is incredibly adept at recruiting. There's an entire portion of the org board devoted to just that (div 6), golden era and bridge publications with books, promo, dvd's, cd's, the oca test, the dessim drill, kws, finding your ruin, all are zeroed in for the explicit purpose of cult recruitment. Group and individual reinforcement with grooming, love bombing and appeals to ego are part and parcel to cult indoctrination. Elcon refined his recruitment into written "policies" and even a course handbook for $cio's.

FundamentalsPR.jpg

I'm going to leave this as a general reply. I don't think that defending Scientology is an easy position. And, I really did want to when I first came out. I saw good done in its name, and using tech, but most of the good later turned out to be generic truths or the abilities of the person applying the said things.

I also saw countless abuses. I wanted like hell for it to be because of the "Co$" or management or mu or whatfuckingever. ANYTHING except that it was the natural outcome of Scientology and the tech as Ron set it out to be.

I don't remember the exact day when it hit me, as time sort of slipped away, but I remember the absolute sickness I felt. All the good times of the pc s who thanked me for saving their life. In some ways, I did it in SPITE of the tech. My ex (who, to this day, I think is probably one of the kindest souls I ever met has given relief to so many people-- often as Chaplain}, and it wasn't because of tech, it was he fucking cared). I have a son who turned his back on Scio completely and helps people in ways that amazes me--I have people finding out that he's my son and telling me how proud I must be. And, I am. He was a cult auditor, and it almost killed him, and somehow, that escapade didn't kill off his desire to help people.

What is hardest about facing that Scientology is the wrong path in so many ways is knowing you went down a path that dragged friends and family into this insane morass. It'd be SO nice to look at all the good an nice... but, I finally had to face that wasn't the truth about any of it. I ripped apart lives because I fell into the con--not of the Co$, not of new management, but of fucking Scientology.

I'm sorry. It's a fucking lie. Even crack cocaine makes some people feel amazing--and believe it or not, I've met folks that have felt that chronic problems were cured by judicial use--- no joke.

Scientology kills. Sometimes bodies, sometimes souls, and sometimes rationality. I'm too old to mince words.

Agreed.
 
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