Please help in getting more precise information here!

Markus

Silver Meritorious Patron
Does anybody arround here remember this incident that may have caused Uwes MS or could have been caused by one of his first MS phases . It would be very important for me to find more witnesses and all the informations I can get about this accident of my brother. And we were told there was another accident where Uwe fell down from a roof.
Please help me to get in contact with people who could know about this two incidents.
Thank you so much for your help. You can find more information about the story of my brother Uwe Stuckenbrock on this link

http://www.forum.exscn.net/showthread.php?t=12513

best wishes
Markus

"The only story, besides my later personal experiences with him that stands out in my mind, was an incident when he was assigned, I think from INT or RTC, to do manual labor work on a new underground vault on the south side of the property. It was either a sewage/septic system or an electrical vault. This was Approximately around 1992. Uwe was not using proper safety gear and he fell into the tank and crushed/broke both of his feet. He was in casts and a wheel chair for a while. I suspect also that he may have been exposed to septic waste, but I do not know for sure. I heard a rumour that Uwe had a difficult time healing from this, that it was kind of a shock to his system."
 
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Markus

Silver Meritorious Patron
I think this is very interesting...

How IUCCA Upper Cervical Care Relates to Multiple Sclerosis
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
While medical science has not determined the exact cause of MS, recent research is pointing towards a possible trauma-induced origin for MS.1-12 Evidence supports that trauma (in particular mild concussive injury to the head, neck or upper back) increases the risk of MS onset and/or formation of MS lesions.1-12 Following the trauma, MS symptoms can take months or years to develop.
The purpose of IUCCA upper cervical care is to reverse the trauma-induced upper neck injury; thereby eliminating adverse effects upon the brain. While many MS sufferers recall specific traumas such as head injuries, auto accidents or falls, some do not. An upper cervical examination utilizing Laser-aligned Radiography and Digital Infrared Imaging is necessary in each individual's case to assess whether an upper cervical injury is present and whether benefit from IUCCA upper cervical care can be achieved.


Research Summary
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
By 2009, approximately 80 MS patients have been examined and treated by Dr. Elster using specific IUCCA Upper Cervical Care (see publications below). All patients showed evidence of trauma-induced upper cervical injuries during examination (upper cervical radiographs and digital infrared imaging). Many patients recalled specific incidences of trauma (auto accidents, falls, concussions, whiplashes) that could have caused their upper cervical injuries while some did not. Some traumas had occurred more than 10 years prior to the onset of MS symptoms. Even if a patient did not recall experiencing an accident or trauma to his or her neck, upper cervical injuries were found in 100% of cases examined.

Markus
 

MrNobody

Who needs merits?
Does anybody arround here remember this incident that may have caused Uwes MS. It would be very important for me to find more witnesses and all the informations I can get on this accident of my brother. And as far as we were told there was another accident where uwe fell down from a roof.
Please help me to get in contact with people who could know about this two incidents.
Thank you so much for your help.
Markus

"The only story, besides my later personal experiences with him that stands out in my mind, was an incident when he was assigned, I think from INT or RTC, to do manual labor work on a new underground vault on the south side of the property. It was either a sewage/septic system or an electrical vault. This was Approximately around 1992. Uwe was not using proper safety gear and he fell into the tank and crushed/broke both of his feet. He was in casts and a wheel chair for a while. I suspect also that he may have been exposed to septic waste, but I do not know for sure. I heard a rumour that Uwe had a difficult time healing from this, that it was kind of a shock to his system."

Markus,
I've never been in any cult, so I will not comment on that, but I've been diagnosed with MS more than 25 years ago, and believe me, I know what I'm talking about, regarding MS. So let me tell you this: MS is basically nothing more than one's immune system attacking one's nerve system. The cause of these attacks is still unknown. That's it. End of story.

I can fall off as many roofs as I want to, this will not - I repeat: this will not affect my MS, although I admit that it might be not healthy either. But don't take my word for it, go and ask all the MSers that are organized under http://dmsg.de. There are probably more MSers in Germany than Scilons worldwide, and we're a really helpful bunch of people, honestly. Just visit one of the DMSG meetings in your area. They are held at least monthly, and I doubt that the one nearest to you is more that 50 miles away. Oh, and did I mention the most of us speak German? This might make itr even eayier for you.

I can understand that you are searching for a cause, a reason for your brother's death, but as I've mentioned in an earlier post to you: "One doesn't die from MS. one might die from the side effects some medications have, or one might die from the side effects that are caused by staying in bed 24/7, but one doesn't simply die from MS.

Fact is: Your brother has died, which is sad enough. Maybe a cause can be found for his death, maybe even someone who's responsible for his death. If so, i wish this certain someone to be prosecuted and sentenced to the max.

But we don't have this certain someone, do we?

Edit
Sorry, I've hit the send button too soon, so where were we? Oh yes, "But we don't have this certain someone, do we?"

Well, I've done quite a bit of manual work, during the past 1/4 century, and although it wasn't really helpful or supportive to my health, I'm still alive and relatively unharmed.
 
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Markus

Silver Meritorious Patron
Markus,
I've never been in any cult, so I will not comment on that, but I've been diagnosed with MS more than 25 years ago, and believe me, I know what I'm talking about, regarding MS. So let me tell you this: MS is basically nothing more than one's immune system attacking one's nerve system. The cause of these attacks is still unknown. That's it. End of story.

I can fall off as many roofs as I want to, this will not - I repeat: this will not affect my MS. But don't take my word for it, go and ask all the MSers that are organized under http://dmsg.de. There are probably more MSers in Germany than Scilons worldwide, and we're a really helpful bunch of people, honestly.

I can understand that you are searching for a cause, a reason for your brother's death, but as I've mentioned in an earlier post to you: "One doesn't die from MS. one might die from the side effects some medications have, or one might die from the side effects that are caused by staying in bed 24/7, but one doesn't simply die from MS.

Fact is: Your brother has died, which is sad enough. Maybe a cause can be found for his death, maybe even someone who's responsible for his death. If so, i wish this certain someone to be prosecuted and sentenced to the max.

But we don't have this certain someone, do we?

I never said that this accident caused his MS for sure. I said "may have caused" But still there are some points in this quote I'm very interested in as you might understand: "Uwe was not using proper safety gear" "...he may have been exposed to septic waste..." "I heard a rumour that Uwe had a difficult time healing from this, that it was kind of a shock to his system."
 

Markus

Silver Meritorious Patron
And see this quote....

"There is also the widely debated theory of injury to the head, neck, and spine. While the link between trauma and MS has never been formally proven, many believe this to be factual. Some professionals suggest that the precise impact to the central nervous system, through whiplash, concussion, or similar trauma, will either cause MS to develop or once subtle symptoms to worsen. Some researchers believe that trauma to the central nervous system may alter the blood-brain-barrier, which many consider to be a critical step in the formation of MS lesions (plaques.) Other researchers have recognized through MRI the relationship of cervical (neck) spinal cord injury and the formation of MS plaques"

see this link:http://www.streetdirectory.com/trav...oes_head_trauma_cause_multiple_sclerosis.html

and this one:http://books.google.de/books?id=uVe...z-G-DQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=3

Markus
 
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MrNobody

Who needs merits?
I never said that this accident caused his MS for sure. I said "may have caused" But still there are some points in this quote I'm very interested in as you might understand: "Uwe was not using proper safety gear" "...he may have been exposed to septic waste..."

When he wasn't wearing proper safety gear, why was that? Was it his decision, his supervisor's decision, or what? Who didn't do his/her job properly?

BTW: If he had worn proper safety gear, he could not have been exposed to toxic waste.

I really understand that you would feel better with a proper explanation, and I really hope you don't feel criticized by me, but isn't it just grasping for straws what you're doing?
 

Markus

Silver Meritorious Patron
When he wasn't wearing proper safety gear, why was that? Was it his decision, his supervisor's decision, or what? Who didn't do his/her job properly? Yes this is exactly one question I would like to have an answer on by starting this thread.

BTW: If he had worn proper safety gear, he could not have been exposed to toxic waste.

I really understand that you would feel better with a proper explanation, and I really hope you don't feel criticized by me, but isn't it just grasping for straws what you're doing?

I'm just getting all the facts together!!

Dear MrNobody,
I don't know where you come from, but you seem to know nothing about the abuses and the dilettantism in the Church of Scientology - especially in the Sea Org or in the RPF. Otherwise you would not ask such questions. Do your homeworks and read some stories of people who were abused in the Sea Org or in an RPF and then let us talk again ok?

Markus
 

MrNobody

Who needs merits?
"There is also the widely debated theory of injury to the head, neck, and spine. While the link between trauma and MS has never been formally proven, many believe this to be factual.

Sigh... Well, if it's so "widely debated" and "believed to be factual", then please show me the link to the DMSG site where this is discussed. DMSG is quite tolerant, even about some quack theories.

Some professionals suggest that the precise impact to the central nervous system, through whiplash, concussion, or similar trauma, will either cause MS to develop or once subtle symptoms to worsen. Some researchers believe that trauma to the central nervous system may alter the blood-brain-barrier, which many consider to be a critical step in the formation of MS lesions (plaques.) Other researchers have recognized through MRI the relationship of cervical (neck) spinal cord injury and the formation of MS plaques"

see this link:http://www.streetdirectory.com/trav...oes_head_trauma_cause_multiple_sclerosis.html

and this one:http://books.google.de/books?id=uVe...z-G-DQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=3

Markus

"some professionals", "some researchers", "Other researchers"... Does nobody of these quacks have the balls to give his name and ... I dont' know... maybe some factual information?

Sorry, but I'm losing my patience here. And yes, some "street wisdom" is what I need, I haven't had enough of it yet.
 

Markus

Silver Meritorious Patron
What is your problem Mr Nobody?

Sigh... Well, if it's so "widely debated" and "believed to be factual", then please show me the link to the DMSG site where this is discussed. DMSG is quite tolerant, even about some quack theories.



"some professionals", "some researchers", "Other researchers"... Does nobody of these quacks have the balls to give his name and ... I dont' know... maybe some factual information?

Sorry, but I'm losing my patience here. And yes, some "street wisdom" is what I need, I haven't had enough of it yet.


You are loosing your patience here? Why?
I'm only collecting information about the life and the suffering of my brother
in the Sea Org in California and you are insulting me in a very bad manner.
And by the way the real quacks you will find in the Church of Scientolgy.
What is factual information. So you are Mr I know all and you are sure that severe traumas will not affect a person with MS in a negative way and that the expose to septic waste is for sure not harmful to a person with MS predisposition.
Best wishes
Markus
 

MrNobody

Who needs merits?
You are loosing your patience here? Why?
I'm only collecting information about the life and the suffering of my brother
in the Sea Org in California and you are insulting me in a very bad manner.
And by the way the real quacks you will find in the Church of Scientolgy.
What is factual information. So you are Mr I know all and you are sure that severe traumas will not affect a person with MS in a negative way and that the expose to septic waste is for sure not harmful to a person with MS predisposition.
Best wishes
Markus

Just take a step back and watch the whole picture.
 

Markus

Silver Meritorious Patron
Just take a step back and watch the whole picture.

This is exactly what I try to do to "watch the whole picture" of the life and suffering of my brother. And I have to do this because the CoS has hindered and suppressed our communication to him for over 30 years. Take your time to read the stories of Twin A or Chaotic Psychotic here or my posts about Uwes life in the Sea Org try to watch "the whole picture".
And this thread is titeled "Please help in getting more precise information here"
so I really don't understand your problem.
Best wishes
Markus
 

MrNobody

Who needs merits?
This is exactly what I try to do to "watch the whole picture" of the life and suffering of my brother. And I have to do this because the CoS has hindered and suppressed our communication to him for over 30 years. Take your time to read the stories of Twin A or Chaotic Psychotic here or my posts about Uwes life in the Sea Org try to watch "the whole picture".
And this thread is titeled "Please help in getting more precise information here"
so I really don't understand your problem.
Best wishes
Markus

Markus,
I'm not here to start a fight, or to distract you from your mission or whatever you want to call it. I'm here because I did read all those stories you've mentioned and then some, and this isn't the only forum I read. I even have a couple of years of archived ARS postings on my harddive from the early 90's. So although I'm surely not the best information source one could find here, I'm not completely clueless either.

I already did give you the link to http://dmsg.de/, which in my opinion is one of the best information sources about MS one could find, and I've already given my personal point of view. What more can I do? Post 20+ pages of my personal MS story? This isn't the right forum for that, and it wouldn't help anyone here.

I have been exposed to some pretty toxic stuff, and I've also had some accidents, both before and after I had been diagnosed, and from my personal experience I can say: There is no link.

If there were a link between MS and being exposed to toxic stuff, I surely would not have survived the 10+ years that I've worked in an extremely toxic environment after I had been diagnosed, and I would surely be much worse than I am today.

Re accidents: Yes, I've had quite a few of those, but if there were a link to MS, why aren't people, who have had much worse accidents than I, diagnosed with MS?

So again: there is no link, and time spent to construct such a link is time wasted. That's my opinion.
 

Markus

Silver Meritorious Patron
As you said in your first post here "The cause of these attacks is still unknown." Some scientists there is a connection with traumatic accidents some say there is no connection. We do not have the proof for one or the other. Thinking rational it seems logical for me that a severe trauma or toxics can increase the predisposition to get MS phases.
Best wishes
Markus
 

MrNobody

Who needs merits?
As you said in your first post here "The cause of these attacks is still unknown." Some scientists there is a connection with traumatic accidents some say there is no connection. We do not have the proof for one or the other. Thinking rational it seems logical for me that a severe trauma or toxics can increase the predisposition to get MS phases.
Best wishes
Markus

As I've said, I worked in a quite toxic environment for 10+ years after I've been diagnosed, and I want to add that I often did it unprotected, and I didn't notice any change in attack frequency or severity. This, in my opinion, invalidates this theory. I've also been involved in 2 car accidents, one of them included a multiple rollover. This also had no effect on my MS.

So in my opinion, based on my personal experience, both theories are BS. I know several MSers, who grasp for every little piece of straw they can find, and therefore fall for all kinds of quack theories, some of those quite expensive. I can understand why they do it and where they come from, but I strongly oppose quack theories and/or remedies, especially if they come in the disguise of science.

Addendum: In the thread title you say you want more precise information. Wouldn't that exclude any unproven theories right from the get-go? No offense intended, jus' sayin'.
 
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Markus

Silver Meritorious Patron
Are you OSA?

As I've said, I worked in a quite toxic environment for 10+ years after I've been diagnosed, and I want to add that I often did it unprotected, and I didn't notice any change in attack frequency or severity. This, in my opinion, invalidates this theory. I've also been involved in 2 car accidents, one of them included a multiple rollover. This also had no effect on my MS.

So this is your kind of science? It had no effect on you so it has no effect to others? What kind of science is this? And how can you proof that it had no effect on you? How do you know for sure? I never said that the accidents were the only cause for Uwes MS for sure but I still would say that there is a possibility that such an accident can strongly influence the development of an illness like MS. So in my opinion, based on my personal experience, both theories are BS. I know several MSers, who grasp for every little piece of straw they can find, and therefore fall for all kinds of quack theories, some of those quite expensive. Like my brother did! I can understand why they do it and where they come from, but I strongly oppose quack theories and/or remedies, especially if they come in the disguise of science.

Addendum: In the thread title you say you want more precise information. Wouldn't that exclude any unproven theories right from the get-go? No offense intended, jus' sayin'.

Best wishes
Markus
 

MrNobody

Who needs merits?
:lol:
OSA? Me? Nope. :no: But it's hard to (dis)prove a negative, isn't it? :confused2: :confused2: So what would you want me to do? Post or PM my full name and address, so that you (and OSA of course) can come visit me and see for yourself? But I wouldn't be able to convince you anyway, would I? :questions:

I tell you what. If you ever come up to North Germany, let me know and we can have a coffee, OK?

And to your other question: No, this isn't my kind of science, this is my way to evaluate and judge something that comes disguised as science. Served me well thus far.
 

Markus

Silver Meritorious Patron
So what is your Mission here?

:lol:
OSA? Me? Nope. :no: But it's hard to (dis)prove a negative, isn't it? :confused2: :confused2: So what would you want me to do? Post or PM my full name and address, so that you (and OSA of course) can come visit me and see for yourself? But I wouldn't be able to convince you anyway, would I? :questions:

I tell you what. If you ever come up to North Germany, let me know and we can have a coffee, OK?

And to your other question: No, this isn't my kind of science, this is my way to evaluate and judge something that comes disguised as science. Served me well thus far.

"My first Missions is to find out as much as possible about the life of my brother Uwe - why? Because the Church of Scientology stole him from his family when he was 16 years old - he was a very nice, polite and handsome guy who loved his freedom and respected the freedom of others. The "church"
perverted him into this:
This is from Twin As story here on ESMB:
"my sister wasn't talking to me. I felt so isolated. I'd gotten some assists for the pain I was in and I got this weird idea all of a sudden, that maybe the reason why I was pulling in all this PAIN was because I had been cruel to my MOM! And I HAD TO go be nice to her, otherwise I was going to suffer and feel bad the rest of my life. She didn't deserve me not visiting her. She'd been promised by the recruiter that I would visit her every year. But in all of 14 years, I had only seen her for a total of 6 days cumulatively. So, one morning, I just packed a back pack, woke up early and ran away. I ran towards the mountains and I crawled under wild bushes and brush, crossed sand pits, hiked and hiked. I got to a clearing, a road, I was happy, I could just follow it to civilization. But the dog, Lady had followed me! Several teams of RPFers had been sent out looking for me when I had not showed up for morning muster. They could not have caught up with me. But Lady had been following me the whole time! Damn it! It was hard to be mad at Lady. She was just doing her job, being a guard dog and making sure I didn't get attacked by a mountain lion or something.

I suddently saw something coming down this road or fire break or whatever it was. It was the Gold Security SUV. Russ Andrus was driving it. I tried to dive into the bushes and hide and let the SUV drive past, but Lady stayed on the road and was practically pointing at me and wagging her tail. I called her name, tried to get her to hide with me, but she just barked when I said her name! So Russ found me. I didn't try to run away. I was exhausted and starving. I'd had no breakfast. Russ had some food inside the truck. I sat down inside the truck eating some french fries and peeling an orange he had given me. I told Russ I didn't want to go back to the RPF site. He said I didn't have to. "Cool " I said. He said that I did have to talk to Uwe, first, just to sort some things out. I agreed. He drove me back to the Ranch to meet Uwe. I said, NOT Back to the RPF site. Russ said OK.

When I got to the Ranch, Uwe was there and he sat next to me in the SUV. He said he originally wanted to talk in the Ranch Security office, but one of the kids had been red-tagged and Barbara Thompkins was using it to give him/her a session. I said, OK, fine. We can talk in the truck. Uwe said, so what's up? I said I wanted to go see my family. I missed them. I said I didn't think I wanted to be in Scientology anymore either. Uwe said that I coudln't just leave like that. It was called blowing. I said, who cares if I blow? I was sent to the RPF. That's like being fired isn't it? If I don't do the program, I'm not allowed to stay in the SO, nobody would want me. So who the F____ cares? We got out of the truck and walked around a little. Anthony Bolstad and Darren just happend to walk by. Ant saw me and smiled with a big smile and said "HI AUNT!" and I said, "HI ANT" back. I felt badly, weren't they my family too? But I really was not allowed to speak to them. Uwe wanted to get back inside the truck. I told Uwe that me and Scientology aren't mixing very well. If staying and doing the RPF Program was proper "Scientology", then I couldn't do it. I could not agree with punishing me. Uwe asked, "What about your husband Bruce?" I felt like crying. Bruce had not spoken to me since mid 1996, and I'd not even been in the same room with him since mid 1994. Uwe, it's not RIGHT that I'm on the RPF. I haven't harmed the church, I have always been a hard worker. You KNOW that. You know me! You know how hard I've worked in the SO. We've known each other for years, What am I doing on the RPF? Why did I really get declared an SP? Was I CSd for it? Did AK CS me to get declared? Or someone in RTC? I know I upset Bruce Bromley and he blew, but I had NO IDEA that he felt guilty about stat pushing the CCRD completions in the late 80's. No idea. I don't even know if that's why he blew, maybe he'd been planning it before I'd even got there! Why did it get blamed on me? Look, I just know that this isn't working out for me and I need to get on with my life.

Uwe, said, OK, I've heard all that you've said. We can deal with this. I want to show you something, we need to go to an office space. He started to drive towards the RPF Site! Uwe, I am not going back! He kept driving. Stop the damn car! Uwe said, "Look, I just want to use the trailer as my office, it's no big deal". He had me sit in front of him at a desk in the back of the men's dorm trailer. He had me read something. I don't even remember what it was. Then he told me that I was officially declared a Suppressive Person again. I said "What????" I got up and I left the trailer, I walked outside and I started to walk out of the RPF Site. I was just going to walk out. I said, "WELL IF I'M DECLARED, THEN I DON'T HAVE TO DO THE RPF DO I?" I'm going home. Tom Woodruff and another guy stopped me. Tom stood in front of me and grabbed my arms. I pushed his hands off of me and then I lunged at him and wrapped my hands around his neck. I started to choke him. I said, "Let me fucking go" And then someone had pulled me off of Tom and slammed me down on the ground really hard. I landed on my back. I started screaming, "I'm not BAD, I'm not BAD". I started to cry. Jean Disher came out and she calmly walked over and said, "Hey Mo, wanna go for a walk and have a cigarette?" The other guys had let go of me and I was just sitting in the dirt. I thought, OK, if Jean is trusted enough to walk around outside the RPF Camp boundries, then I guess I'll go with her. Jean told the guys, "We are just going to get some space, go for a walk, it'll be OK" She smiled. She seemed so calm, it was weird. The guys were all pumped up and hostile. Jean and I walked around a bit. It was a full moon. We smoked a cigarette. Jean told me a story about when she was a school teacher in Boston. I loved Jean's accent. It was a funny story. It made me laugh. She told me about her brother and how he got his picture in National Geographic for the renovations work he'd done as a weldsman on Old Ironsides. "My brother is a celebrity" she laughed. Jean told me how her best friend when she was on the East Coast was named Maureen and how I kind of reminded her of this other Maureen. I talked to Jean too about some funny stories. I told Jean what I thought was on the OT Levels and she said she thought I'd make a good reg. I said, "I don't ever want to do that!" and she laughed. I started to think about Jean and not just myself. Jean had a kid that she wasn't allowed to see. And she could not just walk out and be declared or she'd possibly NEVER see him again. Jean told me that since I'd showed up, since she somehow mystically was able to "handle' me well, she was getting more help on her program, more privelages, she'd been promoted to the RPF Qual In Charge. She didn't right out say it, but I figured it out. If I walked out right then, she would be screwed. So I agreed to go back.

My twin, Tia, had been assigned to the RPFs RPF. For whatever reason, I had not also been assigned. She thought she'd made a mistake on my last assist and that's why I'd blown. How could you make a mistake on a damn assist? I wondered if anyone knew that I was questioning Scientology all together. Did Uwe tell them that? I felt bad for Tia. She probably wishes she wasn't my twin anymore now."

So you see in the end Uwe was trapped in the system he himself applied very cruel to others - did he deserve it? I don't think so!
Did I deserve it to never have a brother despite we always tried to keep in close contact to him. Scientology suppressed the communication to him for 30 years. My mother has lost one of her sons (because of a severe illness of my youngest brother Jürgen) only a few years before she lost Uwe to this cult and when she got the information that Uwe had this severe MS she tried to help him with everything she could but all was blocked from the Church. Can you imagine how she felt about that? She told me many times and it still breaks my heart thinking about this cruelness she had to endure because of this crazy cult.
My three halfbrothers are neglected by their father in the same way as we were neglected since our father has joined the church of Scientology.
My father has totally cut the contact to my sister since many years because she is accepting help from a psychotherapist. My family was finacially ruined by this cult. My family got destroyed by this cult - so my second mission is to prevent other families to have the same fate. And in my opinion the Church of Scientology is responsible for the death of my brother - this is what I learned in the last year while doing my researches. I have many witnesses for this. So my third mission is to prevent other people to endure the same or a similar fate.

Starry, starry night.....http://www.forum.exscn.net/showthread.php?t=11557

But still I really would like to drink a cup of coffee with you if I will come to Nothern Germany once. By the way - I know two people with MS personally and they have a very different point of view of this whole story - so you must not tell me that your point of view is the one and only.
Best wishes
Markus
 
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MrNobody

Who needs merits?
"My first Missions is to find out as much as possible about the life of my brother Uwe - why? Because the Church of Scientology stole him from his family when he was 16 years old - he was a very nice, polite and handsome guy who loved his freedom and respected the freedom of others. The "church"
perverted him into this:
This is from Twin As story here on ESMB:

<story read and snipped to save space>

Yes, they did pervert him into this, obviously. But there's a distinction which I find important to make: The distinction between "Uwe the person" and "Uwe the cultist". No matter how much of "Uwe the cultist" may have been there, I'm sure there was still some of "Uwe the person" buried underneath - which, sadly, must have added a lot to his suffering.

So you see in the end Uwe was trapped in the system he himself applied very cruel to others - did he deserve it? I don't think so!

I don't think so either, but see what I wrote above.

Did I deserve it to never have a brother despite we always tried to keep in close contact to him. Scientology suppressed the communication to him for 30 years. My mother has lost one of her sons (because of a severe illness of my youngest brother Jürgen) only a few years before she lost Uwe to this cult and when she got the information that Uwe had this severe MS she tried to help him with everything she could but all was blocked from the Church. Can you imagine how she felt about that? She told me many times and it still breaks my heart thinking about this cruelness she had to endure because of this crazy cult.
My three halfbrothers are neglected by their father in the same way as we were neglected since our father has joined the church of Scientology.
My father has totally cut the contact to my sister since many years because she is accepting help from a psychotherapist.

Again: "the cultist(s)" vs. "the person". And yes, there are some "sets of rules", "teachings" and "ways to think" in this cult, which I find despicable.

My family was finacially ruined by this cult. My family got destroyed by this cult - so my second mission is to prevent other families to have the same fate. And in my opinion the Church of Scientology is responsible for the death of my brother - this is what I learned in the last year while doing my researches. I have many witnesses for this. So my third mission is to prevent other people to endure the same or a similar fate.

All three are good missions, I'd say. I'd also like to say that yes, they are probably responsible for your brother's death, at least to some extent, because as I've already mentioned elsewhere: One doesn't die from MS. So of course the lack of proper care and support, and a general lack of professionality comes to mind. Which already is known from the Lisa McPherson case, so nothing new here. Finding enough evidence that could hold up in court is the hard part.

But still I really would like to drink a cup of coffee with you if I will come to Nothern Germany once. By the way - I know two people with MS personally and they have a very different point of view of this whole story - so you must not tell me that your point of view is the one and only.
Best wishes
Markus

I didn't say that my point of view is the one and only, and there are many points of view out there, especially when it's about MS. I just stated mine.

I don't know if I found the right words to get my message across, but I hope I did.
 

Markus

Silver Meritorious Patron
Yes, they did pervert him into this, obviously. But there's a distinction which I find important to make: The distinction between "Uwe the person" and "Uwe the cultist". No matter how much of "Uwe the cultist" may have been there, I'm sure there was still some of "Uwe the person" buried underneath - which, sadly, must have added a lot to his suffering.



I don't think so either, but see what I wrote above.



Again: "the cultist(s)" vs. "the person". And yes, there are some "sets of rules", "teachings" and "ways to think" in this cult, which I find despicable.



All three are good missions, I'd say. I'd also like to say that yes, they are probably responsible for your brother's death, at least to some extent, because as I've already mentioned elsewhere: One doesn't die from MS. So of course the lack of proper care and support, and a general lack of professionality comes to mind. Which already is known from the Lisa McPherson case, so nothing new here. Finding enough evidence that could hold up in court is the hard part.



I didn't say that my point of view is the one and only, and there are many points of view out there, especially when it's about MS. I just stated mine.

I don't know if I found the right words to get my message across, but I hope I did.

Yes I think now you did. Thank you and best wishes.
If you will let me know the city your living in Nothern Germany maybe we can drink our cup of coffee when I'm arround there and we can deepen our conversation on this matter.
Markus
 

Markus

Silver Meritorious Patron
What about some details about Uwes accidents?

May somebody please help me with this?
Please PM me about it if you have any more detailed information.
Love
Markus
 
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