Priest-Penitent Privilege in all forms of Scientology

[Magoo]

So what are the freezoners doing about this?

What are their policies about taping sessions? If you go to the Americal Psychological Association web site and look up their code of ethics or whatever they call it, they state exactly what their policies are regarding taping and handling of patient files.

Freezoners (Karen included) need to get out in front of this stuff. Hours of press and #'s of painting sold are not the stats that handle this.

This is NOT OK....
Did you read this? I wrote:

PS: And re this topic of Priest-Penitent Privilege in all forms of Scientology...
It was created for legal reasons, to keep the courts from being able to LOOK inside of PC folders,
find out FACTS about C of $, Hubbard/and later "Dave", and the $$$$$$$$$$$.

The taping, as said there, IS w/in the phony "church" of $cientology.
People auditing outside of C of $ don't have to follow their (C of $'s) insane rules,
such as taping, nor would they have reason to. That's just one of the many reasons WHY people left.

I'm not part of the FZ (Freezone, earlier peeps who left C of $ to get away from their abuses)
Nor am I an "Indie" (Independent--one outside of C of $ who still uses "The Tech" and loves Hubbard.

I am happily and with great pride an EX-Scientologist, Declared SP, and Expelled from C of $.


---- However, as long as people do NOT use the abusive actions of C of $
(Breaking up families,
Declaring people SP,
Stopping free speech,
Medical Abuse,
Usage of "Fair Game",
Fraud
and
roping in young kids to BILLION YEAR CONTRACTS they cannot get out of).....I respect
anyone's right to believe whatever they want, again, as LONG AS THEY ARE NOT HARMING ANOTHER.

(And yes, taping one's "confidential confession" to be later used against them IS part of "Fair Game" :"Can be
lied to, tricked, sued, destroy someone utterly" I believe was Hubbard's quote, correct me if I'm wrong.
AND NO FAIR GAME WAS NOT CANCELLED! Just the TERM "Fair Game" was "Cancelled". At the bottom
of that "Cancellation" it says: "THIS CANCELLATION DOES NOT APPLY TO SPs" (which most of us are).

Children should not be allowed to be part of a mind control CULT, imnsho. The "church"
of $cientology, by many accounts myself included as well as many academics who study "cults", agree
C of $ ***IS*** a mind control CULT. Children should be allowed to
grow up, get educated and THEN ...when ADULTS, IF they want to hook up with Kooks, at least
they were all given a fair, running start.
And note: My feelings about children is the same whether they are "in" C of $
or out "using the tech". LET THEM GROW UP ***NORMALLY*** please. I know that may not be popular,
but it IS how I feel. It IS my opinion, and I'm quite sure MANY of the children who were "raised in Scientology"
will agree with me on this.

I hope that clarifies the difference I was speaking about.

My best,

Tory/Magoo

 

[tired_of_pain]

That's a nice post! When Chanology came along, this freezone question was something that came up. If our aim is to dismantle scientology, what about the freezone? After a bit of back-and-forth, the consensus was to stay on target. Surely, no one wants to dictate what others believe and so on. Free Speech is upheld, the goal maintained, and it was pretty much: who cares? The cult lost a client and every lost client is one more step of progress.

Information and dox are widely ... and wildly ... leaked. Everyone has information available to them, and the cult is exposed. Progress. I certainly don't need to break down the wide variation of exes; it's us. I also understand those of us who were horribly or semi-horribly damaged (or had loved ones who were) are probably going to be consistently opposing the cult, and some people who want to go over it at home and apart from the infrastructure will, and it is of no concern to Chanology. I'd think the ex community could agree on that.

For the record, I think all of it should be avoided. Please. But, as you see in the Documents sub-fora, dox are shared - this could be used to educate about the cult, or even used by individuals in the manner in which they were created. It's no strings attached here, because that is personal.

Really? You should read some of the threads at WhyWeProtest to see how much respect there is there for Indies or for Marty for that matter. Anonymous is not the Freezone friend and the joking and degfrading there about the beliefs and the freezone, and the independents, etc is rampant.

So please, do not try to portray Anonymous as defenders of anything, they doi it for the "lulz".

 

[tired_of_pain]

I'm not part of the FZ (Freezone, earlier peeps who left C of $ to get away from their abuses)
Nor am I an "Indie" (Independent--one outside of C of $ who still uses "The Tech" and loves Hubbard.

I am happily and with great pride an EX-Scientologist, Declared SP, and Expelled from C of $.

I am confused, sorry ... are you "with LRH"? or are you completely anti-Scientology (meaning no tech, no ElRon, no auditing)

PS: I do understand you dont care what anyone believes, I got you respect people's beliefs.
PPS: <3

 

[Anonycat]

Really? You should read some of the threads at WhyWeProtest to see how much respect there is there for Indies or for Marty for that matter. Anonymous is not the Freezone friend and the joking and degfrading there about the beliefs and the freezone, and the independents, etc is rampant.

So please, do not try to portray Anonymous as defenders of anything, they doi it for the "lulz".

It may surprise you that I was a moderator at WWP, and had numerous member accounts as well. You have probably read posts I have made there, and if you were a member, I certainly read yours.

I have been active in Chanology since its inception. I left WWP completely over a year ago, and decided to contribute elsewhere. I had reasons, but they of course had nothing to do with the issues of the freezone. Your choice is also your own.

I appreciate your attempt at illuminating things for me. I'll leave you with thought: Anonymous Chanology has as varied opinions at WWP, as members do here at ESMB. And it's not due to me being a scientology joker/degrader, it's just the nature of people. To me, critic forums vary in their member populations, so chose one (or two) that suit your liking.

No need to get upset. Just navigate to where you choose to go, and what to contribute.

PS - WWP has: Anonymous vs Scientology as a fora - obviously not the perfect place to discuss freezone. There is no freezone fora.

 

[TG1]

Really? You should read some of the threads at WhyWeProtest to see how much respect there is there for Indies or for Marty for that matter. Anonymous is not the Freezone friend and the joking and degfrading there about the beliefs and the freezone, and the independents, etc is rampant.

So please, do not try to portray Anonymous as defenders of anything, they doi it for the "lulz".

Were we just drive-by shot at by Barrett Brown, spokeshole leaderfag of Anon?

What a big being!

TG1

 

[Anonycat]

Were we just drive-by shot at by Barrett Brown, spokeshole leaderfag of Anon?

What a big being!

TG1

Pardon?

 

[TG1]

No, no, dear -- not you. The other guy. The one in pain. The one who came over to explain to us what all anons believe.

TG1

 

[Magoo]

I am confused, sorry ... are you "with LRH"? or are you completely anti-Scientology (meaning no tech, no ElRon, no auditing)

PS: I do understand you dont care what anyone believes, I got you respect people's beliefs.
PPS: <3

"Tired_of_Pain".....

Which part of this, which WORD do you not get?

I said: "I'm not part of the FZ (Freezone, earlier peeps who left C of $ to get away from their abuses)
Nor am I an "Indie" (Independent--one outside of C of $ who still uses "The Tech" and loves Hubbard.

I am happily and with great pride an EX-Scientologist, Declared SP, and Expelled from C of $. "

Ok, so does ANYONE else here have a confusion as to where I stand, aside from the Pain person? :confused2:

Please let me know........as that above comment by the Pain person seems VERY Odd.

Did I miss s/t? Let me know, fellow Esmbers, please.



Tory/Magoo

 

[tired_of_pain]

No, no, dear -- not you. The other guy. The one in pain. The one who came over to explain to us what all anons believe.

TG1

are you mad, bro?

I didn't say what Anons believe, I pointed out Anonymous on WWP (there are MANY different Anonymous) are not pro Freezone or pro Indies as much as they are not pro $cientology. Just go there and read it.

why the attack on me? bored?

 

[tired_of_pain]

"Tired_of_Pain".....

Which part of this, which WORD do you not get?

I said: "I'm not part of the FZ (Freezone, earlier peeps who left C of $ to get away from their abuses)
Nor am I an "Indie" (Independent--one outside of C of $ who still uses "The Tech" and loves Hubbard.

I am happily and with great pride an EX-Scientologist, Declared SP, and Expelled from C of $. "

Ok, so does ANYONE else here have a confusion as to where I stand, aside from the Pain person? :confused2:

Please let me know........as that above comment by the Pain person seems VERY Odd.

Did I miss s/t? Let me know, fellow Esmbers, please.



Tory/Magoo

lol I guess I woke up on the wrong side of the bed today

I dont have any "word or symbol" I did not understand .... please do not use brainwashing techniques on me. I simply was not sure if you were pro-ElConHubbab or not. That is all. YMMV.

 

[Anonycat]

are you mad, bro?

I didn't say what Anons believe, I pointed out Anonymous on WWP (there are MANY different Anonymous) are not pro Freezone or pro Indies as much as they are not pro $cientology. Just go there and read it.

why the attack on me? bored?

WWP has always been anti-scientology. I'm sorry you thought otherwise. Is that all?

 

[Magoo]

lol I guess I woke up on the wrong side of the bed today

I dont have any "word or symbol" I did not understand .... please do not use brainwashing techniques on me. I simply was not sure if you were pro-ElConHubbab or not. That is all. YMMV.

Before I EVER got into Scientology
had we had this discussion and I'd said what I said, if you
said that........I'd still ask:
HUH? Which part of what I said did you NOT get? (*That isn't 'brainwashing techniques" that's
an honest question.) Fair enough, asking 'which word didn't you get" could be seen as
part of their weirdo-rama shit. But truly---do you not get what I've said?

I made it perfectly clear (gack) and have for 12 years...how I feel.
If you're not sure...........check out
www.youtube.com/ToryMagoo44

It's all there and more.

Best,

Tory/Magoo

 

[This is NOT OK !!!!]

This is NOT OK....
Did you read this? I wrote:

The taping, as said there, IS w/in the phony "church" of $cientology.
People auditing outside of C of $ don't have to follow their (C of $'s) insane rules,
such as taping, nor would they have reason to. That's just one of the many reasons WHY people left.

I'm not part of the FZ (Freezone, earlier peeps who left C of $ to get away from their abuses)
Nor am I an "Indie" (Independent--one outside of C of $ who still uses "The Tech" and loves Hubbard.

I am happily and with great pride an EX-Scientologist, Declared SP, and Expelled from C of $.


---- However, as long as people do NOT use the abusive actions of C of $
(Breaking up families,
Declaring people SP,
Stopping free speech,
Medical Abuse,
Usage of "Fair Game",
Fraud
and
roping in young kids to BILLION YEAR CONTRACTS they cannot get out of).....I respect
anyone's right to believe whatever they want, again, as LONG AS THEY ARE NOT HARMING ANOTHER.

(And yes, taping one's "confidential confession" to be later used against them IS part of "Fair Game" :"Can be
lied to, tricked, sued, destroy someone utterly" I believe was Hubbard's quote, correct me if I'm wrong.
AND NO FAIR GAME WAS NOT CANCELLED! Just the TERM "Fair Game" was "Cancelled". At the bottom
of that "Cancellation" it says: "THIS CANCELLATION DOES NOT APPLY TO SPs" (which most of us are).

Children should not be allowed to be part of a mind control CULT, imnsho. The "church"
of $cientology, by many accounts myself included as well as many academics who study "cults", agree
C of $ ***IS*** a mind control CULT. Children should be allowed to
grow up, get educated and THEN ...when ADULTS, IF they want to hook up with Kooks, at least
they were all given a fair, running start.
And note: My feelings about children is the same whether they are "in" C of $
or out "using the tech". LET THEM GROW UP ***NORMALLY*** please. I know that may not be popular,
but it IS how I feel. It IS my opinion, and I'm quite sure MANY of the children who were "raised in Scientology"
will agree with me on this.

I hope that clarifies the difference I was speaking about.

My best,

Tory/Magoo

Well, this is exactly what I'm talking about too!

That's why I think all auditors must, in a moral sense, state emphatically what Hubbard practices they have abandoned and what practices they still subscribe to - e.g. do they discuss medicine use with their clients without the consultation of the prescribing medical profedsional - a common Hubbard/COS practice and if carried on in the field is equally dangerous.

What is a field auditors policy regarding a client bringing up suicidal thoughts in a session?

What is the confidentiality policy?

How to they handle dependence issues with clients? The COS has never met a customer that wanted too much auditing!

It should all be in writing - distributed and understood in advance!

MDs HAVE to do it.

All psychs have to do it.

Mainline churches have these codes and follow them. My Protestant denomination goes to great length to ensure rules of the ministers are followed by them - even going so far as to set a limit of 5 meetings/consultations/sessions that can occur before a mental health professional referral MUST be made.

Auditors MUST regulate themselves AWAY from dangerous and evil practices and state so publicly. Anything less will and should make exes, indies and the general public concerned.

 

[Anonycat]

Well, this is exactly what I'm talking about too!

That's why I think all auditors must, in a moral sense, state emphatically what Hubbard practices they have abandoned and what practices they still subscribe to - e.g. do they discuss medicine use with their clients without the consultation of the prescribing medical profedsional - a common Hubbard/COS practice and if carried on in the field is equally dangerous.

What is a field auditors policy regarding a client bringing up suicidal thoughts in a session?

What is the confidentiality policy?

How to they handle dependence issues with clients? The COS has never met a customer that wanted too much auditing!

It should all be in writing - distributed and understood in advance!

MDs HAVE to do it.

All psychs have to do it.

Mainline churches have these codes and follow them. My Protestant denomination goes to great length to ensure rules of the ministers are followed by them - even going so far as to set a limit of 5 meetings/consultations/sessions that can occur before a mental health professional referral MUST be made.

Auditors MUST regulate themselves AWAY from dangerous and evil practices and state so publicly. Anything less will and should make exes, indies and the general public concerned.

I understand your point. But, freezone is not made of practitioners who are educated by any conventional educational system, and more, are not unified in thought or practice. Also, seeing freezoners change (like Marty seems to be) means that it might be hard for them to stick to a method for the duration of their lives. I'd say, if someone was interested, they should talk to the freezoner directly, and have them answer questions via an e-mail agreement, or something.

Your idea has merit, but I cannot imagine a day with a single, united, body of freezonies, in 100% agreement.

 

[Lulu Belle]

Well, this is exactly what I'm talking about too!

That's why I think all auditors must, in a moral sense, state emphatically what Hubbard practices they have abandoned and what practices they still subscribe to - e.g. do they discuss medicine use with their clients without the consultation of the prescribing medical profedsional - a common Hubbard/COS practice and if carried on in the field is equally dangerous.

What is a field auditors policy regarding a client bringing up suicidal thoughts in a session?

What is the confidentiality policy?

How to they handle dependence issues with clients? The COS has never met a customer that wanted too much auditing!

It should all be in writing - distributed and understood in advance!

MDs HAVE to do it.

All psychs have to do it.

Mainline churches have these codes and follow them. My Protestant denomination goes to great length to ensure rules of the ministers are followed by them - even going so far as to set a limit of 5 meetings/consultations/sessions that can occur before a mental health professional referral MUST be made.

Auditors MUST regulate themselves AWAY from dangerous and evil practices and state so publicly. Anything less will and should make exes, indies and the general public concerned.

Actually, I agree with this.

And if the Indie/FZ field actually expects to organize and grow they better figure it out.

My husband ("Wogman" ) has a stupid-but-true saying (which I think he made up):

"Everything is OK until it's not."

What happens when a person who is being audited in the FZ goes Type III? Or commits suicide? Or goes to the press and says they've been ripped off by a charlatan? Or any of the various other things people in all aspects of the mental health profession wind up having to deal with sooner or later?

Whatever Caroline's motives were for her criticisms of Karen, she has a point. If someone is on a website saying they belong to an organization, and the organization says they have certain rules and operate a certain way, and the person in question really doesn't follow those rules, what do you think will happen if and when a case involving this goes to court?

Because, just as the sun rises in the east and sets in the west, sooner or later, it will.

 

[Magoo]

Well, this is exactly what I'm talking about too!

That's why I think all auditors must, in a moral sense, state emphatically what Hubbard practices they have abandoned and what practices they still subscribe to - e.g. do they discuss medicine use with their clients without the consultation of the prescribing medical profedsional - a common Hubbard/COS practice and if carried on in the field is equally dangerous.

What is a field auditors policy regarding a client bringing up suicidal thoughts in a session?

What is the confidentiality policy?

How to they handle dependence issues with clients? The COS has never met a customer that wanted too much auditing!

It should all be in writing - distributed and understood in advance!

MDs HAVE to do it.

All psychs have to do it.

Mainline churches have these codes and follow them. My Protestant denomination goes to great length to ensure rules of the ministers are followed by them - even going so far as to set a limit of 5 meetings/consultations/sessions that can occur before a mental health professional referral MUST be made.

Auditors MUST regulate themselves AWAY from dangerous and evil practices and state so publicly. Anything less will and should make exes, indies and the general public concerned.

You're singing to the choir on this one, "This is NOT OK"
*I* am the person who suffers DAILY due to $cientology's medical abuse.
As of yesterday, I personally knew of 7 Young Scientologists who have taken their own lives
and are D E A D now, thanks to $cientology's Medical Abuse---be it what they did, or did NOT do to help.
As of today, I now know 8. : ( No---didn't happen last night, I just read about it on the Net and it's one
more family I knew closely. ARGH! And these are just the suicides. The Deaths are now more than I can count that I knew.

So I agree with you, and Cat, too: It's highly doubtful it will get regulated.
Certainly as long as Scientology is called a "religion"...people can do what they want.
Does that cover the FZ or Indies SAYING they are Scientologists? That's a good point to think about.
I doubt they're covered.

And we move on...............

Tory/Magoo

 

[This is NOT OK !!!!]

I understand your point. But, freezone is not made of practitioners who are educated by any conventional educational system, and more, are not unified in thought or practice. Also, seeing freezoners change (like Marty seems to be) means that it might be hard for them to stick to a method for the duration of their lives. I'd say, if someone was interested, they should talk to the freezoner directly, and have them answer questions via an e-mail agreement, or something.

Your idea has merit, but I cannot imagine a day with a single, united, body of freezonies, in 100% agreement.

If the Auditors unite as a group and publish their standards and practices that will be a good start and the public will be able to comment on them.

IN THE MEANTIME, I believe each auditor INDIVIDUALLY has this responsibility and I see nothing wrong with my bringing it up here.

The fact that these auditors probably don't have formal mental health training only MAGNIFIES the out point.

 

[TG1]

Yeah, TINO.

But what's the real deal here?

You've brought this up about 12 times.

What's your beef?

TG1

 

[This is NOT OK !!!!]

Yeah, TINO.

But what's the real deal here?

You've brought this up about 12 times.

What's your beef?

TG1

Think about it for a few minutes.

When someone goes into wog counseling, they're shown what they're getting into - the policies, practices, standards of the practitioner, etc.

Go to an auditor and what do they get?

Well, I can dub-in potentially what they get, here's just a few off the top of my head:

1. Introspection Rundown.

2. Wacky and dangerous vitamin therapy aka Purif.

3. Being told that is is just their case and that what turns it on will turn it off, when the person expresses suicidal thoughts.

4. Dependence on the auditor. This is a Big Deal in the psych field and anyone reading this that doesn't know what it's about should google the word. This has GREAT applicability to Scientology practices inside or outside COS.

5. Taking people off of drugs.

I don't mind taking up the gadfly position on this and cannot understand why every person who calls themselves an auditor should not be "called-out" on this.

It makes no difference to me whether the auditors identify themselves as counselors, therapists, auditors, ministers or spiritualists, Hubbardites, Martyites or whatever.

I know how dangerous hubbard practices can be.

You know how dangerous Hubbard practices can be too.

If you know any of these "practitioners", I would appreciate you letting them know about this and perhaps it will get them thinking.

I have empathy for what some of these people are doing - offering a loving hand to people recently out. But if they're going to do this with an e-meter, or charge for these services - well now they have a responsibility, in fact on all four flows.

 

[TG1]

Thanks, TINO.

We agree on every point you made.

Thanks for making your concerns so explicit.

TG1