PROOF: Miscavige knew about the beatings of others

[Mark A. Baker]

Perhaps I'm wrong here (no expert on how the Board works) but: can he still edit a post, if you've quoted him?

What, did that change too?


Mark A. Baker

 

[Ogsonofgroo]

What, did that change too?


Mark A. Baker

FWIW editing one's post does not change the parts that are quoted by others.

As for Terril's post, hm, nothing amiss that I can see, that is I don't see him outing any anonymous poster in the post from which you quoted, gave a first name ~meh~, far as I can see nobody would give a hoot, ergo, relax man. As a koolaides drinker Terril does have some anoying quarks and makes mistakes, but then many do, including me.


Cheers!

 

[elwood]

Maybe I was not very clear about my intention. I know that Marty and Mike admitted already what they have done. I know why they have done it. I don't want to blame them for anything. It was not my point.

What I wanted to show are the following things:
- The Church of Scientology admitted that there were physical and mental abuses for many many years.
- The Church of Scientology admitted, that even the executive second in command committed horrible things for years.
- The Church of Scientology admitted that David Miscavige personally knew about them.
- The Church of Scientology claims, that those executives were removed from position, but they weren't.

I disagree. What you actually did was compile a boatload of black propaganda from Scilon hate sites and try to pass it off as being helpful. You are either dumb or stupid.

 

[TG1]

I completely agree with Gottabrain and Elwood.

Citing "evidence" from Co$ hate sites is disingenuous at best and you-know-what at worst.

Actually, to make the general point about Miscavige (that he knew the Church was rife with violence) I would understand and accept someone who offered a few links as examples. But to load up an OP with 50 (!) links to OSA sites like those the OP cites IMHO describes a hinky fascination (pride?) for OSA's work product.

TG1

 

[Panda Termint]

I completely agree with Gottabrain and Elwood.

Citing "evidence" from Co$ hate sites is disingenuous at best and you-know-what at worst.

Actually, to make the general point about Miscavige (that he knew the Church was rife with violence) I would understand and accept someone who offered a few links as examples. But to load up an OP with 50 (!) links to OSA sites like those the OP cites IMHO describes a hinky fascination (pride?) for OSA's work product.

TG1

Lol, it was OK in my opinion, just don't click the links if you don't want your IP address tagged. I read it from the perspective of documentimg the inconsistencies in scientology's own reporting. Lying liars who lie.

Yes, I know it's kinda lame-brained and hinky but what about scientology isn't?

 

[Mark A. Baker]

... As for Terril's post, hm, nothing amiss that I can see, that is I don't see him outing any anonymous poster in the post from which you quoted, gave a first name ~meh~, far as I can see nobody would give a hoot, ergo, relax man. ...

That's the sticky bit, it CAN matter.

There was a serious problem created on BB's own board several years ago as a result of one poster referring to another anonymous poster whom he knew by that person's first name alone. Worse has happened since. There are certainly worse examples of conduct, but it is something which warrants being wary.

A person who is posting on a board anonymously should have that anonymity respected, even when they are known to some other members. It's their choice afterall.


Mark A. Baker

 

[Panda Termint]

I agree, Mark, it is a silly thing to do. I didn't know who Scn.Hun was until I read Terril's post. It's not Rocket Surgery.

The good news is; it looks like The Mod Squad have now removed the name.

 

[Terril park]

I agree, Mark, it is a silly thing to do. I didn't know who Scn.Hun was until I read Terril's post. It's not Rocket Surgery.

The good news is; it looks like The Mod Squad have now removed the name.

I can't out the guy as I don't know him.

I used the name XXXX (name redacted by Mod) as I belive he used that in his post, it seems deleted now.<snip by Mod>

The same? Dunno.

Or perhaps I dreamed a XXXX (name redacted by Mod) was one of my BTs. I'd go for the hungarian one.

Anyway it may give some make work for OSA to trace all those in Hungary with the biblical name XXXX (name redacted by Mod).

Perhaps the mods can illuminate why my post had a name censored.
Cos I sure don't know why, and didn't edit it.

 

[Infinite]

I can't out the guy as I don't know him . . . <snip derp> . . . Perhaps the mods can illuminate why my post had a name censored. Cos I sure don't know why, and didn't edit it.

 

[Panda Termint]

<snip idiocy>
Perhaps the mods can illuminate why my post had a name censored.
Cos I sure don't know why, and didn't edit it.

I doubt it.

 

[Gottabrain]

The important thing is whether the remarks themselves are true. If ancillary data is missing or deliberately not revealed that should be pointed out and if possible provided.

Absolutely! I don't personally like Mark (Marty) Rathbun, never did (I knew him when he first joined the SO in the GO), but his personality has never been the way it is presented by COS and 50 quotes from OSA sites containing no evidence but brutally libeling the man was just over the top. But I would like to know exactly what Marty's involvement was with the IRS deal, as one site claims he had very little involvement but that is not what Marty said but he's never given us any details (yes, right, it will be in his book...uh huh..). I am personally concerned about his involvement with the legal aspects of Debbie's case, as Marty has no real-life education in law and the two recent legal matters he was involved in for ex's did not go well at all (Jason's & the Calif lawsuit). Scientology training in legal has little to nothing to do with what is right, ethical or even legally acceptable.

Ultimately all the truth about l.ron hubbard and his church is needed to come out, not just that which is thought to put Miscavige in a bad light. The whole basis of the debacle which has become the Church of Scientology has been the organizational preference for a selective telling of the truth since its inception by l.ron hubbard.

That is something which many ex-scientologists, both independents and critics, have themselves yet to overcome.

Yes. But we're so accustomed to hearing lies from COS, that it is difficult to find the slivers of truth here and there where they exist.

 

[Scn.Hun]

I completely agree with Gottabrain and Elwood.

Citing "evidence" from Co$ hate sites is disingenuous at best and you-know-what at worst.

Actually, to make the general point about Miscavige (that he knew the Church was rife with violence) I would understand and accept someone who offered a few links as examples. But to load up an OP with 50 (!) links to OSA sites like those the OP cites IMHO describes a hinky fascination (pride?) for OSA's work product.

TG1

I didn't say evidence.

proof: American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language:

2. a. The validation of a proposition by application of specified rules, as of induction or deduction, to assumptions, axioms, and sequentially derived conclusions.

Miscavige tries to show himself as the "Dear Leader", who is always there and he is the cause of every good things and others play always almost no role in them. But he is never there and he know nothing about it, when something bad happens and nobody tells him about it.

What those sites really show is, that the COB tries to blame everything on M&M. Of course they did very bad things, too, and that is also very important. But now I just concentrated on Miscavige. I tried to find the tiny small mistakes they didn't notice and the truth in the big blackpropaganda bullshit. I am also not happy that I had to read them, but I did. I put a link for every quote in my post because I saw that every time somebody copies something here without a link, they get just: Dox or GTFO. I even wrote that they are COS links so, beware.

Miscavige is a psychopath who abuses people around him mentally and physically in every possible way. He destroys families, lies, beat people, steals money etc. He attacks and (tries to) destroy(s) everyone who cares and wants to help his victims or expose him. Doesn't matter to him of that somebody is inside or outside of the church, inside or outside of scientology, he just destroys those people. I know as a fact that it is so, but that it is not on the sites of the Church of Scientology.

Some weeks ago I read it somewhere (no more links), that Miscavige claimed that he didn't beat anybody and that when he had learnt about the beatings of others he immediately and personally demoted those responsible. I knew it was bullshit, mostly he did the beatings, but that part I cannot prove. But I posted a video some years ago of COS, where they claim that Rinder is an assistant, but later they call him executive several times. I knew that Rathbun was on the site of RTC several years after the beatings. These were inconsistencies, but not enough, so I thought, maybe the COS made more mistakes on the OSA sites. I was searching for facts, which were already known and the OSA sites confirmed them, like "There were beatings for years and lot of people knew about it". I thought I just include all of the links I found about the beatings.

You are right, one link would have been enough to prove that part, but I thought, it is better to put all of them in one place, just to have it in case of the OSA removes or rewrites those parts. Then if we know the exact link we can look those things up in google cache or on the waybackmachine after they change their site.

I found also statemens about that "Miscavige personally knew about the beatings", but then "Miscavige immediately demote those people responsible". They write this on several pages, and the first part is always consistent. Miscavige knew about it.
The second part is not consistent, because they say, that it happened in 2002, on other site it was 2003, yet an other site it was in 2004. So at least two, or all three of those statements are lie. Miscavige knew about it but he didn't remove them immediately from the executive position. Accordingly, he approves the beatings. After that COS claims that there were 3 years of investigation about the wrongdoings of M&M in 2002-2004 and M&M were really really demoted in 2004 and David Miscavige knew that time already everything about it. In 2004 on the 20th IAS Event he personally introduces the next speaker as "Mr. Mike Rinder". Miscavige knows that (according to the statements of COS) he is one of the worst person on earth, but still he can give a speech to thousands of scientologists. Rinder was speaking about evil SP's and psych's. He announced the soon to be opened "Museum of Psych Horrors" (no links, look it up). Miscavige let Mike speak about Tom Cruise. How is it possible?
In 2007 Mike Rinder was refered to as spokesperson of COS sometimes as assistant to Tommy Davis, but every time he was on a COS video where he cannot be recognised easily, the COS called him "church executive". Like when John Sweeney from BBC made and interview with Mike Rinder, they just say, that John Sweeney made that interview with a church executive, who was not so easily recognised. They made a mistake to put several statements on their OSA sites claiming that exactly that time Mike Rinder went to London for that very interview with the BBC.
Marty Rathbun was still on the RTC site years after that Miscavige, according to the COS, knew about how very very bad guy Marty was. According to COS Rathbun almost killed Rinder. I don't know if that true, but COS claims Miscavige new it and even after a full overhaul of the RTC site in 2004, Marty (Mark) Rathbun remained on the site as the second in command. His page was renamed, so that time they could have just easily removed that page about him if they wanted, but they didn't, only more than a year later.

Most of the quotes on the OSA site were also sent to BBC, CNN and S.P. Times. This is what they claim on their websites, and this is also what CNN, BBC and S.P. Times claim. The info on the site cannot be used as evidence, I am sure. but maybe the submitted documents can be used, or the court can requests the original KR, O/W or Confession documents which are quoted on the OSA sites.

It is not evidence but I think it is proof.

 

[Scn.Hun]

...
But I would like to know exactly what Marty's involvement was with the IRS deal, as one site claims he had very little involvement but that is not what Marty said but he's never given us any details (yes, right, it will be in his book...uh huh..).
...

I think Miscavige's speech on the 1993 IAS video says quite a lot about it. (I don't really dare to link anything here, but I just do. )

David Miscavige about the war between the IRS and COS on the 8th of October, 1993:

I made some important part bold.

...
In October of 1991, while this war was raging at its apex, Marty Rathbun and I were in Washington DC. to attend one of these court hearings I mentioned. It was to be the next day. We had just finished a lunch meeting and our next appointment wasn't for a couple of hours. In other words - we had some spare time on our hands. That's not something we're accustomed to, so - we thought at last we could create a bit of mischief. We told the lawyers we'd see them in an hour or so and that we would be down at the IRS building. Of course they had a good chuckle as we left the room. Off we proceeded to 1111 Constitution Avenue - which if you didn't know is the address of the national headquarters of the IRS. We presented ourselves to security at the front door, signed the visitors log and informed them we were there to see Fred. They asked - Fred who? We answered, Fred Goldberg of course, the Commissioner of the IRS. "Is he expecting you"" they asked. "No", was our response. "but if you phone him on the intercom and tell him we are from the Church of Scientology, I am sure he'd love to see us." Have you ever wondered whether we were really impinging, when we have spoken of the IRS at previous events? Well - if so - shame on you.

We did meet with the commissioner, and, as the saying goes - the rest is history.

There will be no billion dollar tax bill which we can't pay.

There will be no more discrimination.

There will be no more 2,500 cases against parishioners across the US.

The pipeline of IRS false reports won't keep flowing across the planet

There will be no more nothing - because:

On October first, 1993, at 8:37 p.m. Eastern Standard Time, the IRS issued letters recognizing Scientology and every one of its organizations as fully tax exempt!

The war is over!

...

You can see how happy Norman, Heber, Marty and myself are. But who is that giving the thumbs up on the left? That's right - the IRS. Let me be clear. These people - once our enemy - now see us as friends. And for my part, the feeling is mutual. So, don't you hang onto the charge. It is now time to move into the future. The end of this war should not be considered as an end of cycle so much as a beginning of cycle. It should mark the beginning of our greatest expansion ever. It should mark the beginning of our biggest shoulder-to-shoulder push ever to clear this planet. But before we move on, some thanks are in order and I would like to give mine. I would first like to thank all Scientologists and particularly members of the International Association of Scientologists for all of their support over the last 9 years that made this victory possible. I would like to thank the staffs over the world. They have lived through one crisis after another and not ever under the best of conditions, but they hung in there and work to keep the show on the road. They should be acknowledged for their dedication. I would like to thank all members of the sea organization who are upholding the ethics standard across the planet so that tech can go in and people can truly go free. I'd like to thank all of the staff of the Office of Special Affairs who have lived with more entheta over the years than anybody ever deserved. But they hang in there and helped bring forth this win. Sea Org members aren't given awards at IAS events. We reserve them for our own internal ceremonies. But I would like to thank 3 individuals who were there on the front lines helping to fight this battle.

They are Marty Rathbun, Norman Starkey and Heber Jentzsch. But it is appropriate this evening to present some awards. This is a huge victory.
...

And here is the link to the trasscript: http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/Cowen/essays/speech.html

The video was also available online, but I believe it is not any more.

I think if Rathbun didn't do most of job himself, Miscavige wouldn't use "We" every time.

 

[Demented LRH]

You may want to send this information to Mr. Jefferey, Debbie Cooks Lawyer. His contact information is on the Church seeking Summary Judgement thread By clicking on the VV link. You could just send him a link to this thread but might be better to send him the info you have compiled.

Good Job.

Not to discourage anyone from sending this data to Debbie's lawyer, but I think that he already got it from Marty.
If anyone has a first-hand data about physical and sexual abuse done by CoS members, I encourage them to contact Debbie's law team.

 

[SweetnessandLight]

I can't out the guy as I don't know him.

I used the name XXXX (name redacted by Mod) as I belive he used that in his post, it seems deleted now.<snip by Mod>

The same? Dunno.

Or perhaps I dreamed a XXXX (name redacted by Mod) was one of my BTs. I'd go for the hungarian one.

Anyway it may give some make work for OSA to trace all those in Hungary with the biblical name XXXX (name redacted by Mod).

Perhaps the mods can illuminate why my post had a name censored.
Cos I sure don't know why, and didn't edit it.

Hey Terril, and Mods,

I dunno, but maybe I can throw some light on this...I responded to John Anchovie's post and called him by name, John. Then went on to explain what I thought was the main idea of the OP. The Original Poster when went on to quote my post, where I used John's name. I think that's likely what you saw, and mistakenly thought that the Original Poster was using his name in a post, or possibly that I was calling OP by name (I wasn't).

I think it was just a mistake and no harm was meant by Terril, (or me for that matter). I think we all can agree that we want to protect members privacy here, when they are posting anonymously, even when we do know them.

I did not see the name before it was redacted to XXXX, but from the number of letters, and the reference to "a Biblical name", I am inferring that this is what happened...

I thank the Mods for their vigilance and responsiveness to a perceived problem, but if Terril was infracted or reprimanded in any way for seemingly outing anyone, when he was innocent of doing this, then I feel he is owed an apology by all involved.

I hope that this explains it.

Peace! Sweetness

 

[Veda]

Hey Terril, and Mods,

-snip-

I did not see the name before it was redacted to XXXX, but from the number of letters, and the reference to "a Biblical name", I am inferring that this is what happened...

I thank the Mods for their vigilance and responsiveness to a perceived problem, but if Terril was infracted or reprimanded in any way for seemingly outing anyone, when he was innocent of doing this, then I feel he is owed an apology by all involved.

I hope that this explains it.

Peace! Sweetness

I saw the name and it wasn't the Biblical name you think it was.

Is being goofy an infractable offense? To quote Terril: "Dunno."

 

[SweetnessandLight]

Oh, great, I'm wrong again! Oh, well...I try. :confused2: Thanks Veda!

So here is another interesting and relevant thread, on how DM was brutal early on in his SO career:

http://www.forum.exscn.net/showthre...Have-gone-on-for-decades-not-just-a-few-years