PTS and SP, as concepts

Claire Swazey

Spokeshole, fence sitter
One of the many good features of this board and of the ex and critical scene in general is the kicking around and evaluation of Scn concepts. I always find that to be a lot of fun. Reminds me of late nights where people have wine or coffee and are enthusiastically debating this or that in a friendly mentally stimulating kind of way.

I was thinking of the PTS/SP thing, particularly PTSness. I think there's merit to some of it, that Hubbard based some of it on plain old observation. Of course, he also included his own anger at enemies (many of whom were either imaginary or were people he provoked in the first place) and some other things that were opinions and imagination. And, as we know, the PTS/SP "tech" have been used to oppress and keep CofS members in line the whole time. And this is why people are so very critical of those theories. Their implementation has caused a lot of heartbreak and fragmentations of families and there are innate problems and untruths in the concepts themselves.

While I don't think that every situation that causes someone to "go effect " or experience the kind of stress that makes them liable to get in accidents or become ill or terrified or anything like that is the result of a sociopath lurking in the woodpile or someone whose actions remind the person of such, I do think that some of the phenomena and symptoms described are often true.

But then again, how can I call it PTSness when the acronym means "Potential Trouble Source". Meaning, the sufferer, the person who's under that stress, is a potential or actual problem to others. Of course someone who's terrified or stressed to the max can make bad decisions that harm others, but people who aren't experiencing that can also make bad decisions from lack of information, irrational thoughts, illogic, etc. But the very phrase and acronym are classic Hubbardite blaming the victim. How could anyone look to them for help with something when, right out of the gate, the person needing help and succor is considered to be wrong and a problem?

Hubbard had a worldview of sociopaths who were out to get others and who were relatively numerous (2.5% of the population which would be millions of people, worldwide) and that those connected to them would then cause problems. (The 20% who were "PTS"). Evidently, an "SP"'s reach is considered to be roughly a fifth of the population around him.

For one thing, I don't think that there are that many sociopaths or SPs or whatever one wants to call them. Of course I think that people can affect others. But people can put a lot of pressure on others and be hard on them without being an out and out antisocial personality. And there are people and goals that should be suppressed by others because they are destructive. DM comes to mind. Dictators, etc.

As I once mentioned, my husband used to work in a maximum security federal prison. When we were in CofS, and were first married, I said to him "I bet you met a lot of SPs, huh?" and he said that he thought that most of them were "just PTS" and that he didn't consider the majority to be suppressive. I thought that was interesting and that was the beginning of my changing my thinking away from seeing SPs as the hidden answer to every problem.

I do think that if someone is, for any reason, in a bad and ongoing situation, that they will not have the best reasoning. I always thought it was a lot like being in a deep well that's too slippery to climb out of by yourself, but if someone lowered down a good sturdy rope ladder, then escape becomes doable. And maybe someone lowers a ladder but it's so dark that you can't see it. Talking to people who are in bad situations like that where you suggest possible solutions to them can be challenging. The solutions don't always resonate with them even if you manage to make a pretty good sensible suggestion.

So although I think some of the phenomena and mechanisms of PTSness described by Hubbard are probably correct, still, this is a concept that is riddled with half truths and misconceptions.

I'll just end this with one really great example of what would be a "PTS sit". Being staff at CofS and experiencing the constant hassling every day. Staffers are suppressed constantly, every day as long as they are there. The organization is extremely "suppressive". Even those who really try to do everything they are told to do 100% of the time never have it work out for them.
 

La La Lou Lou

Crusader
Judging scn by it's own standards, the only time I have been subjected to continuous invalidation and evaluation was as staff, especially in the SO. I do know some dodgy people who suck the energy from me if I spend too long in their company, and one such person I haven't seen for a long time, and I am happy with that, even there I would say that these people are not psychopaths as much as broken people who need more care than I have the power to give. There are really nasty people in this world, they are very few but even fewer have goldenrod declares.
 

Gib

Crusader
ah shit, it's bullshit.

just by the fact of somebody doing any grade level and getting such supposed EP,

how on earth can anybody go PTS? And I'm not even talking about an OT who is supposed cause over life - how can the person go PTS.

Potential Trouble Source means only one thing, a person who starts using critical thinking to examine scientology and then determines it's hyped up BS, why that person is now a Potential Trouble to Keeping Scientology Working, to keeping the scam going. The PTS person is a source of trouble to the [STRIKE]organization[/STRIKE] scam.

Oh yes, there are gradients called PTS type 1, A, b, etc.

Just think about it, if you have an "open mind", that actually means you are using critical thinking, but Hubbard redefined it as "somebody who can't decide". :hysterical:

The whole concept of PTS/SP is hubbards brainwashing to get followers. :roflmao::roflmao::roflmao::roflmao::roflmao:

edit: and an SP is just somebody who decides to tell others it's a scam.
 
I just think it's stress that makes one "PTS" As to SP's why not call them sociopaths? Or narcissistic sociopaths? Hubbard was always (from my readings of Bare Faced Messiah and Madman or Messiah) making others the why, real or imagined, they were enemies, commies, ex-wives, evil doers, enraged creditors, psycs, SMERSH, etc. - all of which sprung from his paranoid mind and were out to get him personally. In reading those books, it was a constant pattern in his life, others making his life hell, and him flying off the handle or running for the hills. I mean, really, what sort of other tech would you expect from a paranoid, scitzo, out exchange, sociopath?

What is weird, is the whole SP / PTS meme that if you are connected to an SP, you'll roller coaster and loose your gains, is how it totally invalidates the goal of making the able more able, making OT's, making one cause over life etc. Why not call it Victimology? That's what it is.

A word of advice from one who did this - the Flag HGC does not like cognitions that you aren't PTS after all, whether they F/N at the examiner or not. You are not allowed your own reality on this point ->"all illness and accidents stem solely from suppression...bla bla"

It is no end of wonder how they justify that this gross eval /inval does not violate the auditors code. I swear, the further up the bridge you get, the frailer you are in their eyes. God forbid you should stub your toe or crash your car shortly before your 6 months check - you get all manner of useless PTS handling. And for what? It's auditing for form, not the PS / Pre OT's benefit. Or, shudder, a stat push.

Mimsey
 

Gib

Crusader
I just think it's stress that makes one "PTS" As to SP's why not call them sociopaths? Or narcissistic sociopaths? Hubbard was always (from my readings of Bare Faced Messiah and Madman or Messiah) making others the why, real or imagined, they were enemies, commies, ex-wives, evil doers, enraged creditors, psycs, SMERSH, etc. - all of which sprung from his paranoid mind and were out to get him personally. In reading those books, it was a constant pattern in his life, others making his life hell, and him flying off the handle or running for the hills. I mean, really, what sort of other tech would you expect from a paranoid, scitzo, out exchange, sociopath?

What is weird, is the whole SP / PTS meme that if you are connected to an SP, you'll roller coaster and loose your gains, is how it totally invalidates the goal of making the able more able, making OT's, making one cause over life etc. Why not call it Victimology? That's what it is.

A word of advice from one who did this - the Flag HGC does not like cognitions that you aren't PTS after all, whether they F/N at the examiner or not. You are not allowed your own reality on this point ->"all illness and accidents stem solely from suppression...bla bla"

It is no end of wonder how they justify that this gross eval /inval does not violate the auditors code. I swear, the further up the bridge you get, the frailer you are in their eyes. God forbid you should stub your toe or crash your car shortly before your 6 months check - you get all manner of useless PTS handling. And for what? It's auditing for form, not the PS / Pre OT's benefit. Or, shudder, a stat push.

Mimsey

The scientology has no other technology to compare to,
so of course the one they are applying is the one.

One can't have an open mind or mix practices.

duh....................

it's called Keeping Scientology WORKING.

Hubbard even said scientology only works if you apply scientology. But what does that really mean?

It means scientology only works if one believes it works. And if you believe with certainty that you believe it works.

Hubbard got us to believe, with certainty that it worked.

The perfect person to forward scientology, and keep it working.

Just like what he said in the Phoenix lectures, which was "what you consider, you consider", so he got us to consider scientology worked.

regardless if it is true or not. LOL
 

Anonycat

Crusader
ah shit, it's bullshit.

just by the fact of somebody doing any grade level and getting such supposed EP,

how on earth can anybody go PTS? And I'm not even talking about an OT who is supposed cause over life - how can the person go PTS.

Potential Trouble Source means only one thing, a person who starts using critical thinking to examine scientology and then determines it's hyped up BS, why that person is now a Potential Trouble to Keeping Scientology Working, to keeping the scam going. The PTS person is a source of trouble to the [STRIKE]organization[/STRIKE] scam.

Oh yes, there are gradients called PTS type 1, A, b, etc.

Just think about it, if you have an "open mind", that actually means you are using critical thinking, but Hubbard redefined it as "somebody who can't decide". :hysterical:

The whole concept of PTS/SP is hubbards brainwashing to get followers. :roflmao::roflmao::roflmao::roflmao::roflmao:

edit: and an SP is just somebody who decides to tell others it's a scam.

That one REALLY cracked me up! Open minded - what was that, PTS type 5 or something?

The whole thing is such BS and all about control. So, as I posted, I did my ~2 week class. Not only did they drop a crazy bomb, they also - of course - asked me to pre-pay for the next classes. It was $1,200 as I recall. I said, I'm a kid. I am in school and don't have that kind of money. The guy pressured me. "Can you borrow it from your parents? Grandparents? I said no, I am a kid, and I'm not about to ask my family for that kind of money. He instantly asked if any of my family was antagonistic toward scientology. I knew where that was going. Either get the money, or disconnect.

Fuck you, scientology!
 

Claire Swazey

Spokeshole, fence sitter
I can think of a time when I had many of the hallmarks (according to Hubbard's concepts) of PTSness.

When I was staff at CofS.
 

Cat's Squirrel

Gold Meritorious Patron
In what follows I am going to be using Scn technical concepts, though I'm trying to keep them to a minimum. I know some people here don't like them and I'm sorry but offhand I don't know how else to say what I want to on this topic.

I think there is an element of truth in the idea of PTSness, even though it is grossly abused by the CofS. It's a state of having other people's psychic creations stuck in your psychic space and being unable to remove them (or being unaware of their existence, or perhaps even misowning them and claiming them as your own).

SPs? They could correspond to what M. Scott Peck called "people of the lie".

http://www.amazon.com/People-Lie-Hope-Healing-Human/dp/0684848597

but I think their prevalence in the population at large is rarer than Scientology claims, maybe 2-3%.

Just anticipating a comment here; "it's not really the other person's creations you're experiencing, you're mocking it all up yourself." Maybe that's true, but it doesn't look that way to the person who's stuck with this condition or they wouldn't be stuck with it (and I'm speaking from experience here as I've had to handle this myself when I first did a course at Plymouth Org).
 
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Helena Handbasket

Gold Meritorious Patron
they also - of course - asked me to pre-pay for the next classes. It was $1,200 as I recall. I said, I'm a kid. I am in school and don't have that kind of money. The guy pressured me. "Can you borrow it from your parents?
"Dad, can I have $1,200?"

"What did you do, break something?" :biggrin:

Helena
 

Reasonable

Silver Meritorious Patron
I like Hubbard’s concept of a Potential Trouble Source. Someone who possibly may cause you trouble. OK no argument from me.

Then the 12 characteristics etc. I agree that if a person really truly has these characteristics and he is in your life, your business, or your marriage then yes he can cause you trouble.

The idea that 2% are psychopaths and 20% are PTS sounds like a made up figure that he pulled out of his ass.

The idea that each and every time you have any misfortune or sickness you must be connected to a PTS or SP is ridiculous. But the idea that to some degree if you have PTS or SP types around you could have trouble. Seems reasonable... It seems like it might be something to consider.

Then Hubbard really goes off the rails completely when he starts to use the transitive property.

PTS and SP people want people to fail, and Scientologists want people to do well, therefore a person who is anti- scientology does not want anyone to do well ever in any situation.

That is where it gets crazy to me. I like a lot of the concepts but Hubbard and Miscavge mixes and matches all of his concepts together.

Usually the problem is that when they apply Scientology the stable datum is that the highest ranking scientologist is correct and then you can use the “tech” to determine why is he is right.
 

MrNobody

Who needs merits?
I think as soon as one loses his/her initial Wackeldackel status, which obviously takes some people a LOT of time, they'll find out that they've never been anywhere near any path/road/whatever to any freedom, but on the highway to PTS instead.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OXQFJkS9h7c

Well, that what it looks like to me, from the outside looking in.
 
In what follows I am going to be using Scn technical concepts, though I'm trying to keep them to a minimum. I know some people here don't like them and I'm sorry but offhand I don't know how else to say what I want to on this topic.

I think there is an element of truth in the idea of PTSness, even though it is grossly abused by the CofS. It's a state of having other people's psychic creations stuck in your psychic space and being unable to remove them (or being unaware of their existence, or perhaps even misowning them and claiming them as your own).

SPs? They could correspond to what M. Scott Peck called "people of the lie".

http://www.amazon.com/People-Lie-Hope-Healing-Human/dp/0684848597

but I think their prevalence in the population at large is rarer than Scientology claims, maybe 2-3%.

Just anticipating a comment here; "it's not really the other person's creations you're experiencing, you're mocking it all up yourself." Maybe that's true, but it doesn't look that way to the person who's stuck with this condition or they wouldn't be stuck with it (and I'm speaking from experience here as I've had to handle this myself when I first did a course at Plymouth Org).
There is something to be said for positive people attracting other positive people and conversely negative people attracting other negative people, but to blame every incident, coincidence, and random act, on an association with negative people is not just a gross abuse, it's flat out batshit crazy.
 

Cat's Squirrel

Gold Meritorious Patron
There is something to be said for positive people attracting other positive people and conversely negative people attracting other negative people, but to blame every incident, coincidence, and random act, on an association with negative people is not just a gross abuse, it's flat out batshit crazy.

Agreed.
 

Knows

Gold Meritorious Patron
The PTS/SP tech was designed to make Scientology ALWAYS right! The barometer is Scientology - anyone who is critical or has a disagreement with Scientology, L Ron Hubbard or Captain Miscavige is hiding crimes? Funny - it is the exact opposite! Scientology is hiding huge crimes and doesn't want the members to know - so Hubbard came up with this clever mechanism to control the members!!

Ironic how when Captain Miscavige makes mistakes - he blames the SP's - they keep corrupting the tech....:whistling:The SP's (he never names them) did it in 1991, 1996, 2007 and 2013-2014. No cramming or punishment for dear leader...but if any staff, SO or public are PTS - look out!! It is going to cost them $$$$~

Does Captain Miscavige donate any money to his cult? I bet he doesn't!!:yes: Did he do conditions when the SP's got in there again after promising 100% standard tech in the 90's? I bet not!!
 

Enthetan

Master of Disaster
I just think it's stress that makes one "PTS" As to SP's why not call them sociopaths? Or narcissistic sociopaths? Hubbard was always (from my readings of Bare Faced Messiah and Madman or Messiah) making others the why, real or imagined, they were enemies, commies, ex-wives, evil doers, enraged creditors, psycs, SMERSH, etc. - all of which sprung from his paranoid mind and were out to get him personally. In reading those books, it was a constant pattern in his life, others making his life hell, and him flying off the handle or running for the hills. I mean, really, what sort of other tech would you expect from a paranoid, scitzo, out exchange, sociopath?

The reason for the term "SP" rather than "sociopath" was to enable the linking of "anti-scientology=sociopath" in the definition of SP.

So a reg who commits criminal acts and ruins peoples finances, but in doing so gets org stats up CANNOT be labeled an SP.

Meanwhile, somebody who publicizes Scn crimes and lies IS an SP, even if they are otherwise the most benevolent person in the world.

He who controls the definitions, controls the conversation.
 

Infinite

Troublesome Internet Fringe Dweller
..

[video=youtube_share;9RPPjOSFKok]http://youtu.be/9RPPjOSFKok[/video]​

. . . a discussion on the Scientology SP/PTS Doctrine from someone who knows all about it.
 

La La Lou Lou

Crusader
I think we need a lot more psychopaths to help fight global warming, get out of your cars and use a bike. It's good for the environment.

Seriously though folks psychopaths can be useful, in times of dire action needed the cold steel of a real SPs brain can come in handy when the murderous pirates are climbing aboard with knives between their teeth you don't need a team of fluffy empaths you need an angry Mongo. A lack of empathy is not always a bad thing, just most of the time. It takes all sorts to make a world. Hubbard wanted SO members that were cold and unreasonable at the same time he wanted to rid the world of suppressive persons, hows that for confusion. In times of peace nasty people are destructive, but when it's time to roll up sleeves they come into their own. Scn thinks it's at war, so they love the minimongo.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KUsGDVOCLVQ
 

cdub

New Member
I worked with hundreds of ex-felons for five years in a "get back to work program" and can attest that 99% of them are regular guys and ladies just like you and me who got off in the wrong direction at some point. They were not, each one, individually, suppressive people according to the definitions.
 

La La Lou Lou

Crusader
I worked with hundreds of ex-felons for five years in a "get back to work program" and can attest that 99% of them are regular guys and ladies just like you and me who got off in the wrong direction at some point. They were not, each one, individually, suppressive people according to the definitions.

cdub. interesting observation, thanks for that, and welcome!:yes:
 
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