Purpose of This Discussion Board ESMB

alex

Gold Meritorious Patron
Power of suggestion.

Before one of the times I awoke this morning (Monday) it was right after having a dream of walking into the org in that scenario, with out the Hco bring order bit.

At one point the ED, Val, came right up face to face, had a little freak for a second but then it just felt like a nice flow as if nothing had happened in my relationship with the org.

Still social veneer in a dream, Doc??

I think Val knows there is a lot of bullshit coming down from above and its not right, but like a lot of us still scientologists, doesnt really know what to do.

I think at some point, a bunch of known people should walk into thier old orgs and just let the staff say what ever they want, and listen to them, let them be right no matter what they say. Let them......have some....outlet, some terminal that is different. Let them accuse if they need, or try to handle or whatever....No antagonism, no explanation, just listen, and smile and ack, and then leave quietly. No need to say anything really, they know. They just need a little momentary safespace to start changing.

The "side" that can make the safe space....wins.
 

Bee Sting

Patron with Honors
Emma The Enlighted One!

I couldn't let this thread go without making some comments - so here goes. I'm not going to spend a lot of time composing this post and so if it's a little non sequitur please forgive me.

ESMB changes every day. Sometimes it's a great place to hang out, sometimes not. Sometimes it seems to be FZ friendly sometimes FZ unfriendly. Sometimes it gets dominated by certain posters who set a "tone" and make others feel that "the board" is taking on a new flavour, but in fact it is just one or two who happen to write well and often.

ESMB has grown out of all proportion to my original goal. As it grows it gets harder and harder to "control". Not that I want to control what people talk about - I don't, but as the board "swings" one way or another it does so under it's own steam without any input from myself or moderators. It's all governed by that day's threads and the posters that reply.

In the early days I had much more time and could get to know everyone personally and it was a more intimate group. Now I look at the posts of the day and realise I hardly know anybody. Of course the core group are still around (mostly) and it's wonderful to see new people getting out and joining up. ESMB is like a party that grew from an intimate dinner party for 12 to a massive BBQ with thousands milling around, talking in groups, some vegetarians, some meat lovers, some beer drinkers, some wine drinkers, some playing cricket, some wrestling in the corner and others passed out on the sidewalk from too much rum :) When you go to a party like that it's hard to get to know everyone and most likely you don't even want to get to know everybody.

Over the years people have complained that ESMB doesn't fit their ideal board. Some feel it's too FZ friendly, others feel it's not welcoming enough for those who still want to practice Scn. Others feel it's not proactive enough in "destroying Scn" and others feel that it's too critical of Scn and Hubbard.

The thing about that is that ESMB was supposed to be agendaless. I didn't set out with an agenda to "do" anything other than provide a safe place for people to talk about their experiences in Scn, make new friends and reconnect with others. I realise this doesn't suit everyone but I'm not apologising for this.

I see ESMB as a revolving door. People come in, get what they need, say their piece, recover a bit of themselves and then leave again (or not). Some folks make a lot of new friends in the process and hang around for the company and camaraderie. Others become permanent fixtures that you can rely on for good advice and a welcoming handshake. Others tire of the conversation and company and forget that the door is still revolving and that you can leave if you are tired of it. Others leave when they are ready and you never hear from them again. Others never actually say anything but get what they need from just listening to the group and then quietly wonder off to continue their lives.

To survive on ESMB you have to have tolerance. This is probably the biggest thing that running this board has taught me. I had very little tolerance when I got out of Scn. I wasn't willing to accept others viewpoints as valid if they were opposed to mine (because I'm RIGHT god dammit!). I believe Scn closes your mind. In fact being open minded is a big crime in the church. I'd taken that on board and was living it. I've now found that I can admire and respect a person who thinks very differently to me because it's not the ideas of a person that I respect, it's about character and integrity.

Regarding trolls: One mans troll is another mans prophet. I wish I could share with you all the various complaints I get about "Poster A" or "Poster B" only to find that these same posters have really helped out other members with their insights and viewpoints. It's virtually impossible to monitor trolling to everyone's satisfaction. Use the ignore button to your advantage.

Overall I think we have a great group here. I'm proud of this board and the assistance it's given so many people. I know it's not perfect - I'm not perfect and neither is any one else but I think if we keep in mind the basic purpose of the board which is fundamentally just a vehicle for communication between exes and interested parties, I think we will be ok.

Cheers!

Emma,

I am offically crowning you as the Wise and Enlightened One!

My motto has always been "Be Patient and Tolerant of Others."
I really appreciate your insight. No one is perfect and if we were it wouldn't leave any challenge left to explore or adventures to endure, would it?

I think this Board is very helpful, for me at least. It's an opportunity to grow and learn from our differences and the things we have in common. I try to to embrace those differences not fear them. I see this Board as opportunities I otherwise would never had the chance to encounter. I try to understand them and learn from them because that is what makes me grow.

I have always had a zest for life, a curiosity to learn, explore and to know more but sometimes that is hard without having a common thread to build that learning from. But, in this case the common denominator is the experience I have had as a Scientologist and as an Ex-Sea Org member.

That is what keeps me here and makes me come back for more. It gives me purpose. Although I may not have found the voice I am looking for but this Board gives me hope. Hope that I can find peace and forgiveness through patience and tolerance and in return if I can open my heart to someone whom may need me to guide them to that same place of healing.

I think this is a good place to start. Thanks, Emma!


Honey Love,

Bee Sting
 

Doom

Lurking.
Hold it, you're a Midwesterner?

And you posted your Goldenrod?

You get 50% off for being a Midwesterner, and another 50% off for posting your goldenrod as your avatar.

Therefore, this particular psychoanalization is
FreeSign.gif
for you!!!

**********************************************************

For everyone else, I'm running a Summer Special!!!


From now until Labor Day, Dr Alanzo's Psychanalization Services are FREE!!! to anyone who posts their genuine, stamped goldenrod from the Church of Scientology as their Personal Avatar on ESMB!!!!


Anything you need, from Introductory Dream Interpretation to Sexual Hangup Analysis is
FreeSign.gif


If this is not the purpose of ESMB, I don't know what is!!!!!​

Oh dear God help us! Alanzo is starting his own con :lol:
 
Hold it, you're a Midwesterner?

And you posted your Goldenrod?

You get 50% off for being a Midwesterner, and another 50% off for posting your goldenrod as your avatar.

Therefore, this particular psychoanalization is
FreeSign.gif
for you!!!

**********************************************************

For everyone else, I'm running a Summer Special!!!


From now until Labor Day, Dr Alanzo's Psychanalization Services are FREE!!! to anyone who posts their genuine, stamped goldenrod from the Church of Scientology as their Personal Avatar on ESMB!!!!


Anything you need, from Introductory Dream Interpretation to Sexual Hangup Analysis is
FreeSign.gif


If this is not the purpose of ESMB, I don't know what is!!!!!​



Come into my couselling room.......(smacks lips).......
What's yer proble.....Oh!!! seeexuuual peeerveeersion....(tries not to let widenening eyes and dilating pupils be too obvious)......Oh and you were thrown out of a religion for all sorts of "dirty" things.......(drools saliva onto the moth eaten carpet).......oh and you were what? "goldenrodded" yeeeeees that souns veeeery iiinteresting. Now then let's get started, oh, no, don't worry about payment, no lets just start right now,
I want to hear eeeeeverything.
 

lionheart

Gold Meritorious Patron
I hope you don't mind that I rearranged your post:

. The Xenu/BT secret story provides the motivation for scientology's crimes.

. These crimes are committed on the belief that they are for the greatest good.

. scientology justifies and excuses these crimes, using the Xenu/BT (Body Thetan) alien story from 75 million years ago.

. It is not a crime that the this story is kept secret, but the teachings themselves create the crimes, and their secrecy helps to perpetuate the crimes.

. In handling criminal scientology, target the crimes, certainly -- but if the Xenu/BT cause of them is also targeted, (revealed at OT3 thru OT7), then the generator of the crimes is undercut and rendered impotent.

What's needed is a twin-pronged PR campaign against scientology:
1) targeting their crimes.
2) exposing the Xenu/BT secrets that motivate and justify committing them.

Thanks, you have the job of simplifying and summarising my sometimes rambling posts! :thumbsup: :)

I disagree. OT III could disappear and the crimes would still continue. The crimes exist because of these stable data in LRH policies:

1) Scientology is the ONLY way out of the "trap" (ref: KSW)
2) Scientology is fighting a battle against time and evil SPs to "save the universe" for all time (ref: KSW)
3) The PTS/SP "data"
4) Scientology view that anyone against them is stopping the ultimate goal of freeing all thetans and enabling "total freedom"
5) LRH data on "never discuss, only attack"
6) LRH data on using lawsuits to overwhelm "enemies"
7) LRH data on noisy investigations
8) OSA drills and policies on lying, steering conversations, and manipulating the media
9) PR Series - getting people to agree with what the Church wants - truth matters not at all
10) SPs and critics are viewed as REAL ENEMIES to be stopped at any cost (Fair Game, no rights as normal people, able to be deprived of property, etc)

The above are each part of the Scientology indoctrination process. True Believers are created WELL before any OT III is contacted.

Yes, the crimes ARE committed due to a belief in the concept of the greatest good for the greatest number of dynamics (where SCN as the 3rd dynamic takes TOP precedence), BUT OT III data has nothing to do with it.

The secrecy of the OT materials is entirely different than the secrecy of Church operations, and the secrecy of OSA shenanigans (which are also hidden from staff and public).

The "secrecy" of the OT levels is not unlike other secret societies where "upper level initiations" are kept secret and given out ONLY when the neophyte or student passes certain preperatory levels (Rosicrucians, Masons, Golden Dawn, Crowley's magick group OTO, etc). Part of it may be to create a "mystery sandwich", but also generally the members of these groups BELIEVE that the levels must be approached and passed in a correct order. This may or may not be true about Scientology.

I get what you are saying and certainly many of these policies existed before the public emergence of OTIII (although we don't know how much of this galactic conspiracy existed in Ron's mind when he wrote KSW, etc. Although we know from his Targs tape from '52 that his attention was on this sort of stuff back then).

However the neophyte is introduced to these "only hope" and "enemies" concepts very early in their exposure to scn. He either accepts them to some degree and continues up the "Bridge" or he doesn't accept them and leaves scn.

Those that accept Hubbard's enemy and deadly serious theories progress onto the confidential levels where they are primed to accept the implantology of the subject.

Then they do the super deadly OTIII where the secrets that are behind the psyche enemies and why this is our only hope, etc are revealed. They accept this because they have already accepted that the enemies and only hope already exist before they see the explanation for them.

Thus OTIII now re-enforces and explains the Hubbard concepts that they had already accepted. This is when they really become dedicated (birth of the SO and GO) to committing the crimes that Pand talks about.

So yes, without OTIII the impetus to comit crimes would exist to some extent. But it is OTIII that really justifies and solidifies them and re-defines the emphasis of dynamics.

So as in all things, I suppose the truth lies in the middle ground between your point od view and mine! :)

I liked what you said about the justifications of CofS.
However, I disagree that it's "Xenu and BTs" that provide that justification. Many of the crimes are committed solely on the basis of "the greatest good... etc" by people who have no knowledge of the confidential data, just their own ideas stemming from allusions to it.

To take up your invitation; if you think I'm saying the crimes I listed are the ONLY correct target then, yes, you've misunderstood me.

I'm pointing out that if one truly believes the CofS to be an evil, totalitarian cult and wishes to convince others of this view then it's probably more effective to shine the light on the things the CofS doesn't want exposed.

Whilst most would think this would be Xenu and BTs and Space Opera, that cat is already well and truly out of the bag and ranging far and wide across the internet. The cats the SO/OSA/CofS are desperately trying to keep bagged are the ones that would change public perception of scientolgy from ridicule of a "slightly whacky but well intentioned religion" to outrage about a totalitarian cult which destroys lives.

To be clear about this:
Xenu/BTs = public ridicule,
Human trafficking, slavery, enforced abortions, perverting the course of justice, protecting paedophiles and wife-beaters, extortion, blackmail, coercion, fraud, fair-game, enforced disconnection, denial of human rights, etc = public outrage.

Which one do you think is going to create the most change in public perception?

I think public ridicule and public outrage are probably equal in their effect on public perception.

We disagree about which target is the most effective target, but that is ok.

I suppose I think that as OTIII is the carrier wave that amplifies and justifies the crimes, so too exposing OTIII to critical scrutiny and even ridicule is the carrier wave that encourages the protests against the crimes.

Old Ronnie created the seeds of scn's growth and simultaneously created the seeds of its demise with his OTIII dogma.
 
Great idea!

-snip-
I think at some point, a bunch of known people should walk into thier old orgs and just let the staff say what ever they want, and listen to them, let them be right no matter what they say. Let them......have some....outlet, some terminal that is different. Let them accuse if they need, or try to handle or whatever....No antagonism, no explanation, just listen, and smile and ack, and then leave quietly. No need to say anything really, they know. They just need a little momentary safespace to start changing.

The "side" that can make the safe space....wins.

I'm gonna do this, with TR's in and great ARC! :)
 

Voltaire's Child

Fool on the Hill
The thing about the public ridicule of the OT levels is that they just don't get it. They don't realize that the OT levels like ALL Scn auditing ultimately pertains to postulates and considerations.
 

bluewiggirl

Patron Meritorious
I think at some point, a bunch of known people should walk into thier old orgs and just let the staff say what ever they want, and listen to them, let them be right no matter what they say. Let them......have some....outlet, some terminal that is different. Let them accuse if they need, or try to handle or whatever....No antagonism, no explanation, just listen, and smile and ack, and then leave quietly. No need to say anything really, they know. They just need a little momentary safespace to start changing.

The "side" that can make the safe space....wins.

Um, there's a problem with this. In Boston one of our anons was taken to court for 7 months for bullshit charges because some people in the group he was with (not him) walked into an org. I don't know how rabidly they want to attack different people on this board, but giving them even a chance to open up lolsuits against people isn't a great idea IMO.
 

_brian

WogRevert
I think Val knows there is a lot of bullshit coming down from above and its not right, but like a lot of us still scientologists, doesnt really know what to do.

I think at some point, a bunch of known people should walk into thier old orgs and just let the staff say what ever they want, and listen to them, let them be right no matter what they say. Let them......have some....outlet, some terminal that is different. Let them accuse if they need, or try to handle or whatever....No antagonism, no explanation, just listen, and smile and ack, and then leave quietly. No need to say anything really, they know. They just need a little momentary safespace to start changing.

The "side" that can make the safe space....wins.

I'm gonna do this, with TR's in and great ARC! :)

Oh, cool S&L. I take it you might be serious ?:) ?

It would be an interesting caper/process done honestly and tactfully. Though by time I would get back to the sac area (maybe next summer) hopefully people will have crawled out from underneath the rubble and fallout from DM's ejection.

Then it's just a matter of helping people deal with the aftermath.

Brian
 
For those still on lines...

Um, there's a problem with this. In Boston one of our anons was taken to court for 7 months for bullshit charges because some people in the group he was with (not him) walked into an org. I don't know how rabidly they want to attack different people on this board, but giving them even a chance to open up lolsuits against people isn't a great idea IMO.

Wiggy honey, I think Alex was meaning for Scientologists and Ex's who are known to them personally, not anons, to go and not be the enemy, give them acks, just listen, etc. Be there with kindness. Let them blow off charge and get some reality that Ex's are not degraded beings or crazy, but caring and upstat. Would work best in smaller orgs where staff is really pushed and stressed to the limit. A little comfort goes a long way when you're distressed. We know they are all distressed. Like Steve Hassan's buy them a cup of coffee and have a conversation approach.

This does not apply to rabble rousing, attract lots of attention, in your face protests, and data dissemination to the public, which has its place.

This is the Gandhi-esque, Ahimsa approach. :p
 

_brian

WogRevert
Um, there's a problem with this. In Boston one of our anons was taken to court for 7 months for bullshit charges because some people in the group he was with (not him) walked into an org. I don't know how rabidly they want to attack different people on this board, but giving them even a chance to open up lolsuits against people isn't a great idea IMO.

Hi bwg.

Yes, and respectfully to you, that may be the case with anons or other public, but with the drive to recover any and everybody SP's included to buy basic's or do their "a-e"'s, some exes may be able to go in and in a casual way get "in comm", do what ever give the organization a little hope "win" and then continue on, though we know the level of manipulation tactics to try to grind down ones resistance. :yes:

Idk?? :)

Brian

edit: I see s&l answered too.
 

bluewiggirl

Patron Meritorious
Wiggy honey, I think Alex was meaning for Scientologists and Ex's who are known to them personally, not anons, to go and not be the enemy, give them acks, just listen, etc. Be there with kindness. Let them blow off charge and get some reality that Ex's are not degraded beings or crazy, but caring and upstat. Would work best in smaller orgs where staff is really pushed and stressed to the limit. A little comfort goes a long way when you're distressed. We know they are all distressed. Like Steve Hassan's buy them a cup of coffee and have a conversation approach.

This does not apply to rabble rousing, attract lots of attention, in your face protests, and data dissemination to the public, which has its place.

This is the Gandhi-esque, Ahimsa approach. :p

I'm all for gandhi tech, but if there's anyone thinking about doing this that the church has a reason to hold a serious grudge against, it's probably a bad idea for the reason I gave.
 

alex

Gold Meritorious Patron
Um, there's a problem with this. In Boston one of our anons was taken to court for 7 months for bullshit charges because some people in the group he was with (not him) walked into an org. I don't know how rabidly they want to attack different people on this board, but giving them even a chance to open up lolsuits against people isn't a great idea IMO.

Yes, I heard about that...

Sorry.

I was meaning for ex scientologists to do the visiting.

But I have encouraged anons to do the same, with the proper "hatting" on what will and will not cause trouble.

And actually one anon of my acquaintence actually did do this after my suggesting. They knew he was anon, he had been protesting with mask and sometime without, and he was open about his intent. His intent was to see and talk to people in the org to get some idea of what was what. He spent a couple of hours in the org and was treated respectfully, although he was the kind of guy who is good at getting along and was genuinely curious. Of course the people he talked to were DSA and high ranking staff, but they had a productive exchange, both sides coming to a better understanding of what kind of people each other were. He wasnt converted, by the way. We're not THAT good. :coolwink:

But a bunch of chan /b/tards, intent on lulz would get the cops called.

I think even a group of loud young men, being flippant might get a quite "prepare for HCO BRING ORDER" being in place. That is not an uncommon occurance, some kids being brave and going in to ridicule a bit. We dont lock them in dungeons, just ask them to leave.

I think if a group of anon really wanted, and arranged in advance, and were at least a bit respectful they could also go into an org and meet with people, (people appropriately cleared for it.) Offer to bring a symbol of peace from your culture, cake or cookies...org staff usually like free food.

And of course if anon's wanted to go into the org.....just dont be anon, go in under your own name, go to sunday service or a free introductory lecture, or to do the OCA, ask for a tour or just talk about what the courses offered are or such. How would they even know you were an anon? Use a fake name or such...You wouldnt get your ID checked until you write a check!

New people come in all the time. And there is even a separate division in the orgs and missions to cater to the newbies....so you could easily do this. Just act genuinely curious (and maybe even be curious) and a bit reluctant and you will fit the profile. You would get a fairly intense and personal "hard sell" speil....but it would be a learning experience.

Just dont go in to disrupt and I have no problem with it. I did pretty much the same thing before I was a scientologist. I was antagonistic because of my family being "conned" into scientology, and I did some personal intel... And also some lulzy public baiting and harassing of scientolgists on the streets. (which I encourage less as it is counter productive to some extent.) I think you would be safe, just you may get on the mailing list and that is hard to get off of.
 
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alex

Gold Meritorious Patron
Communication is a process, as in the kind of process we talk about when we talk about auditing, or counseling outside of religion too.

When someone gets the opportunity to communicate, it lets them move off of stuck positions, mentally. It is beneficial to simply be there, available to listen, and let others talk. That is the essence of auditing, it is the essence of friendship.

It is what happens on this board.
 

Zinjifar

Silver Meritorious Sponsor
Communication is a process, as in the kind of process we talk about when we talk about auditing, or counseling outside of religion too.

When someone gets the opportunity to communicate, it lets them move off of stuck positions, mentally. It is beneficial to simply be there, available to listen, and let others talk. That is the essence of auditing, it is the essence of friendship.

It is what happens on this board.

But, not in Scientology, where the 'communication' is all 'one way'/top-down, at least until anyone wanting to 'communicate' is brought into 100% compliance with command intention; whether it be Ron's or Davey's.

Zinj
 

Gadfly

Crusader
But, not in Scientology, where the 'communication' is all 'one way'/top-down, at least until anyone wanting to 'communicate' is brought into 100% compliance with command intention; whether it be Ron's or Davey's.

Zinj

The only acceptable communication within the confines of the official Church of Scientology environment is the type that fully AGREES with extant INT and RTC viewpoints. If you don't AGREE, then you will NOT be understood, no matter WHAT you "communicate". To the degree that your communication doesn't agree with "command intention" is the degree to which you will rapidly slide into the domain of being viewed as "an SP".

Trickle down communication!:D
 

FinallyMe

Silver Meritorious Patron
"Perfidity"? Since when was that a word? You have got to be a clam! And if a clam then nobody can trust anything you say.

So you're not old enough to have known the song, "Perfidia" - accusing his lady love of perfidy? Being perfidious.

Hmmm, interesting in light of this thread - apparently since you don't know the word, it doesn't exist -- for you or for anyone?
 

Björkist

Silver Meritorious Patron
The thing about the public ridicule of the OT levels is that they just don't get it. They don't realize that the OT levels like ALL Scn auditing ultimately pertains to postulates and considerations.


bam.jpg
 
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