Question about sec checks at Flag

pandora

Patron
Hey there - I'm in need of advice about something that's going on...
The back story: so my parents are (since last week) at Flag; my mom is routing back on to OT5, my dad back onto OT 7 after a long break. A week before they left she and I had lunch. She's the only one in my family that I'm semi-out to as an ex-scientologist. I'm usually careful what I say around my family but lately it has been getting harder to keep my real feelings in.

Anyway, we ended up having a conversation (our second or third) about - very vaguely - my "disagreements" with the church. I usually try to stick to concrete examples, because she's still one of those "I know the tech works I've seen it and experienced it" types so I want to stay in shallow water. However, she did express her disgust at the way some ex-sea org relatives of ours were offloaded and said that she'd gone up-lines about it when it happened (here I should mention that my parents are both 40 year-plus scientologists, in good standing, pillars of the community, la da da). We both agreed how fucked it is that whenever someone we know goes into the sea org we basically never see them again. I mentioned that I've been reading books from reputable writers who are critical of scientology, namely Lawrence Wright, and that the fact checking in that book is beyond reproach so I have no reason to disbelieve it. I specifically mentioned the fact that the outpoints in the sea org don't happen in a vacuum and lead me to believe that the upper management is doing a horrible job. We ended on good terms though not, of course, seeing eye to eye.

Okay to the point: yesterday I got a phone call from her at Flag in which, apropos of nothing, she mentioned how much she "enjoyed" our conversation. I said I thought it was super awkward but that I was glad that I could be honest with her. Then she oh-so casually asked the names of the books I've been reading. Hackles went up on my end. I said, "Did someone there ask you to ask me that? Because that's really weird," and she said "No! I'm asking because I'd like to read them." Er. WTF. I had no idea what to do so I just gave her Urban's, Wright's and Jenna Miscavige's titles and she rang off. But COME ON. I mean, there's no way that she's at Flag and just happens to feel like picking up a little light anti-scientology reading, right? After we hung up I realized, duh, there's probably a sec check before routing back on to an OT level and it came up there.

So my question is... what the hell happens now? I'm correct that's she was lying when she said no one there asked her the names of the books, right? And if so, what can I expect the outcome of this to be? Will it just be fair roads fair weather from my parents from now on (which I really loathe)? Has anyone been in a similar situation as this? I should say also I almost welcome the shit hitting the fan at this point because I'm so sick of the lies and denial. And I'm not scared of disconnection either because my parents are REALLY family-oriented, and, well, I have something the church can't give them - I'm having their first grandkid in a month (is it so fucked that I think this way?)

Argh. Anyway. Sorry for the super-long post...I feel like this is the only place I can express my real feelings. Thanks for reading and for any advice you can offer.
 

Enthetan

Master of Disaster
You realize that OSA monitors this site, and you have given all the info they need to figure out your identity?
 

Enthetan

Master of Disaster
So my question is... what the hell happens now? I'm correct that's she was lying when she said no one there asked her the names of the books, right? And if so, what can I expect the outcome of this to be?

Well, anyway, you are correct in your suspicions. Almost certainly, there was an MAA or OSA person on the line listening to the conversation and scribbling notes to your mom on what to say.

Neither parent will be allowed to go on any OT level while they are connected to you. I would be surprised if either of them did anything other than using up every dollar on account on sec checks this trip.

On the plus side, it might be the last straw for them and they might finally say "screw this shit".
 

Gib

Crusader

pandora

Patron
Well, anyway, you are correct in your suspicions. Almost certainly, there was an MAA or OSA person on the line listening to the conversation and scribbling notes to your mom on what to say.

You know, although I've read the threads on this board and the horror stories, I actually find this response to be kind of paranoid. My mom was on her cell phone and she is in no way slick enough to hide the fact if someone else was listening in. Telling me that I should expect the worst isn't really the advice I was hoping for.

I haven't posted much on this board because I never have felt like my story was dramatic or important in the way that other stories were. But beyond that I feel like there is a middle ground for some of us that isn't taken seriously by others here. My disagreements with the church are real - I think it's a bullshit destructive ponzi scheme but I also think that not EVERYONE is forced to disconnect or undergoes fair game actions etc. Some of us exes who are public are just trying to figure out how to interact with our relatives. Time will tell though. I'll report back about what their next actions are and if they're allowed to "progress."
 

Gib

Crusader
Well, anyway, you are correct in your suspicions. Almost certainly, there was an MAA or OSA person on the line listening to the conversation and scribbling notes to your mom on what to say.

You know, although I've read the threads on this board and the horror stories, I actually find this response to be kind of paranoid. My mom was on her cell phone and she is in no way slick enough to hide the fact if someone else was listening in. Telling me that I should expect the worst isn't really the advice I was hoping for.

I haven't posted much on this board because I never have felt like my story was dramatic or important in the way that other stories were. But beyond that I feel like there is a middle ground for some of us that isn't taken seriously by others here.
My disagreements with the church are real - I think it's a bullshit destructive ponzi scheme but I also think that not EVERYONE is forced to disconnect or undergoes fair game actions etc. Some of us exes who are public are just trying to figure out how to interact with our relatives. Time will tell though. I'll report back about what their next actions are and if they're allowed to "progress."

First sentence - all stories are dramatic, we was in a god damn cult advocating freedom but hindered it.
Second sentence - true.

Feel free to communicate. :sing:
 

Boojuum

Silver Meritorious Patron
OSA or an MAA may not have been listening in to the phone conversation, but it's doubtful that anyone at Flag recommended she read the books. More likely, your relationship and reading list came up in a major way and she was directed to isolate exactly the fullness of your anti-ness. Perhaps the Flag C/S has come up with some type of rundown or program that addresses someone like your parents who are close to someone who has read anti-Scientologist literature.

I love your comment that you're sick of the lies/deceit. GOOD!!!

I like your attitude about this. You don't have to be weird because your parents are connected to a weird organization. M
 

Gib

Crusader
OSA or an MAA may not have been listening in to the phone conversation, but it's doubtful that anyone at Flag recommended she read the books. More likely, your relationship and reading list came up in a major way and she was directed to isolate exactly the fullness of your anti-ness. Perhaps the Flag C/S has come up with some type of rundown or program that addresses someone like your parents who are close to someone who has read anti-Scientologist literature.

I love your comment that you're sick of the lies/deceit. GOOD!!!

I like your attitude about this. You don't have to be weird because your parents are connected to a weird organization. M

I'm sure Flag has DA packs on the books, so the parent forget what books were mentioned (so much for having perfect recall as a "clear" and above - :laugh:) and had to call to ask.

Of course DA packs are designed to discredit the source, the critic.
 

pandora

Patron
Boojuum and Gib~
Thanks so much for your replies. It feels really good just to have someone, like, HEAR what I'm saying and know where I'm coming from. Great info as well - I know that my mom's talking about me and these issues but I have faith that our relationship can only get more honest from this point. Maybe not better - but more honest. And at this point I'll take that.
 

Gib

Crusader
yesterday I got a phone call from her at Flag in which, apropos of nothing, she mentioned how much she "enjoyed" our conversation. I said I thought it was super awkward but that I was glad that I could be honest with her. Then she oh-so casually asked the names of the books I've been reading.

So my question is... what the hell happens now?
Thanks for reading and for any advice you can offer.

In review, I'll take a stab at this.

So Flag MAA or during sec checks it comes up that daughter mentions these books that are critical of scientology. Mom sent to ethics to sort-out. Ethics handling is 1st don't create antoginism, and find the source of the entheta, the books. Mom finds out, then DA packs are shown to Mom, all good and she continues.

When mom gets home, she will have to DA the books the daughter, Pandora, mentioned.

If Pandora buys it, the explanation all good.

If Pandora no buy it, not good.

The ball will be in your court Pandora when your folks get home. Here the fun would begin. If you could somehow mention to the folks look, hubbard says a datum is good if compared to another, so read the books and compare.

I dunno, :confused2:
 
In review, I'll take a stab at this.

So Flag MAA or during sec checks it comes up that daughter mentions these books that are critical of scientology. Mom sent to ethics to sort-out. Ethics handling is 1st don't create antoginism, and find the source of the entheta, the books. Mom finds out, then DA packs are shown to Mom, all good and she continues.

When mom gets home, she will have to DA the books the daughter, Pandora, mentioned.

If Pandora buys it, the explanation all good.

If Pandora no buy it, not good.

The ball will be in your court Pandora when your folks get home. Here the fun would begin. If you could somehow mention to the folks look, hubbard says a datum is good if compared to another, so read the books and compare.

I dunno, :confused2:

My guess it will be just as Gib says. Your mother was probably not too "enturbulated" because you were careful not to stir her up. So as long as she plays nice and follows the steps and assures them it is all no big deal then everyone will be happy. I'm speculating that their situation must be quite a usual thing, with friends and families reading "entheta" these days. I'm speculating there must be a lot of tension about Pre OTs arriving from the very enturbulated wog world these days, so......the nice soothing sounds about it being nothing but a little bit of stuff in a book and all "terminals" breathe a sigh of relief to see they are not going to lose [STRIKE]their cash cows[/STRIKE] [STRIKE]and stat makers[/STRIKE] your parents. I like your attitude too. Mom might be expecting you will play along and keep her happy and untroubled. It would be interesting to tell her when she gets back how much you appreciated her calling you about that conversation and how you appreciate being able to be honest with her. Then see what she thinks about the next installment of your honesty. I guess I am third partying here. :biggrin: You may be getting the same right now, and if not you, then Lawrence Wright and other authors. Good Luck.
 

uncover

Gold Meritorious Patron
Maybe the personal impression (including regging and endless sec cecks) at Flag opened her eyes and she simply wants to compare her own observations of outpoints with that what others write (while on the waiting-list for the next sec check) ?
 

Enthetan

Master of Disaster
You know, although I've read the threads on this board and the horror stories, I actually find this response to be kind of paranoid. My mom was on her cell phone and she is in no way slick enough to hide the fact if someone else was listening in. Telling me that I should expect the worst isn't really the advice I was hoping for.

Sorry if what I said was not what you were hoping to hear. I responded based upon my own personal experiences of what Sea Org people are capable of, both using my experience as a public, and as a SO member (including a stint as an MAA, and another stint as an org Ethics Officer).

My philosophy is to hope for the best, but have a plan for the worst.
 

Helena Handbasket

Gold Meritorious Patron
Well, I think that's perfectly horrid. What business is it of theirs anyway? I think they should just accept whatever people tell them and leave it at that.

And just how do they implement such a thing? Do they make people disrobe and line up for inspection? Do they use flashlights? What if someone presents an ambiguous appearance?

And what if ... . Wait a minute, did you say sec checks? I thought you said sex checks.

Sorry. :biggrin:

Helena
 

phenomanon

Canyon
Boojuum and Gib~
Thanks so much for your replies. It feels really good just to have someone, like, HEAR what I'm saying and know where I'm coming from. Great info as well - I know that my mom's talking about me and these issues but I have faith that our relationship can only get more honest from this point. Maybe not better - but more honest. And at this point I'll take that.


There's always the possibility that your Mom ran into something at Flag that she "disagreed" with. In which case, she mighyt have wished to read what you had been reading.
Not too likely, but possible.
Give her the benefit of the doubt, and stay strong.

phenomanon
 

Adam7986

Declared SP
So my question is... what the hell happens now?

Had you not posted here, publicly, I would have said to you that you can expect some dead agent packs on those people and a long talk with your mom. In that case, I would have advised you to simply pretend like everything is okay and continue to front to your mother that you agree with what she is saying.

However you posting here has changed the situation dramatically. Simply posting here is enough to get you declared. At the very least you're going to get a non-enturbulation order, which means that you will have to come here and state that you are revoking anything you have said and then stop posting here all together.

You know, although I've read the threads on this board and the horror stories, I actually find this response to be kind of paranoid. My mom was on her cell phone and she is in no way slick enough to hide the fact if someone else was listening in. Telling me that I should expect the worst isn't really the advice I was hoping for.

He's not telling you the worst to expect, he's telling you exactly what to expect. Scientology is going to expect you to make amends and do a doubt condition for posting here, if they don't declare you right off the bat. That just depends on how much your parents fight to prevent a declare (mine did not).

You mom may not be "slick" but never underestimate the power of a group. Scientology controls people by using the mob mentality. Your mother is in the heart of the mob. Everyone there will be telling her to disconnect from you and not to feel bad about it. She believes her spiritual eternity is on the line.

You parents will willingly disconnect with you if they must to continue their services.

It was very brave of you to reveal your feelings to your mother. Very brave. Courage involves being willing to steel yourself against possible repercussions, the most likely one (since you have posted on this website) is that you are going to be declared.

The less likely possibility is that you are going to be asked to go in to the Church and go through an ethics cycle for what you have done. If you resist, you will be declared.

You are not dealing with logic or reason. There is no reasoning with Scientology or Scientologists. They are of a one-track mind. The only way for you to keep relations with your parents is if they renounce Scientology all together. Let's face it, 40 years of Scientology programming and indoctrination is not going to change over night.

Take it from me dude. I lost my parents. I was one of those people who talked to my parents and they voiced how horribly they felt I was treated by the Sea Org. In the end they chose Scientology over their own son. I am not the only one this has happened to. There are many of us.

You are brave and you have many friends here and many people who have been through what you are going through. If you can hold on to that courage you may be able to continue without being re-indoctrinated into Scientology because you are going to have to make that choice: Leave your parents or re-enter Scientology.

Just don't forget that they can make the same choice, and that sometimes children and parents' views differ so drastically that it can cause separation. Not just in religion but in other things as well.

So you have to decide if your psychological, physical, emotional and financial well being is worth sacrificing to be able to speak to your parents. I can tell you right now, it's not. But that is your choice, and it is a difficult one to make.
 

Enthetan

Master of Disaster
There's always the possibility that your Mom ran into something at Flag that she "disagreed" with. In which case, she mighyt have wished to read what you had been reading.
Not too likely, but possible.
Give her the benefit of the doubt, and stay strong.

phenomanon

One problem with that: any Flag OT 5 or 7 who, on their own initiative, decides to obtain and read even one openly-anti-Scn book, is not going to get any more OT-level material or auditing. From that point on, the only auditing they are likely to get is sec-checking. And this is made clear from the beginning to anybody going on the OT levels.. I speak as a Flag OT5 myself. Reading "suppressive" material will get you kicked off the OT-levels. Every OT is given that R-factor.

They will be sec-checked until all their money is gone, and they are in debt beyond any ability to extract themselves, or until they decide to leave.
 

Gadfly

Crusader
One problem with that: any Flag OT 5 or 7 who, on their own initiative, decides to obtain and read even one openly-anti-Scn book, is not going to get any more OT-level material or auditing. From that point on, the only auditing they are likely to get is sec-checking. And this is made clear from the beginning to anybody going on the OT levels.. I speak as a Flag OT5 myself. Reading "suppressive" material will get you kicked off the OT-levels. Every OT is given that R-factor.

They will be sec-checked until all their money is gone, and they are in debt beyond any ability to extract themselves, or until they decide to leave.

Cripes, talk about setting up a system of control so that nobody dares look outside of the tight little box!

:puke2:
 
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