Question about the personality test? Id like insight please

afaceinthecrowd

Gold Meritorious Patron
According to Julia Lewis Salmon herself, the OCA was also “majorly drawn from” The Minnesota Multiphasic Personality Inventory which was developed and released several years before the Taylor-Johnson. Julia was a Clinical Psychologist before Scn.

I don’t know if the SO or Scn still uses the same IQ, Aptitude and Leadership Tests that they did back in the ‘70’s.

I've had 3 professioanly administered IQ Test pre-Scn and 4 post-Scn. The results of all 7 were 20 to 25 points lower than my highest Scn IQ test score.

The IQ test was not comprehensive and full faceted and the fact that the same test was given over and over again ensured that the person’s IQ went up over time.

Same with the Aptitude Test and the Leadership Test. Interestingly, a high score on the Leadership Test pretty much meant that the person would follow Policy, Orders and “Command Intention" no matter what they were. Again, over time one was able to figure out the “correct” answers for these tests, as well.

Face :)
 
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Isene

Patron with Honors
According to Julia Lewis Salmon herself, the OCA was also “majorly drawn from” The Minnesota Multiphasic Personality Inventory which was developed and released several years before the Taylor-Johnson. Julia was a Clinical Psychologist before Scn.

The JTA came out in 1941. JTA graphs appears along with other test results in the pre-chapters of the early SoS releases.

If you compare the JTA with the APA/OCA, you will find that the questions are virtually the same, with one trait and thus 20 questions added to the JTA's 180 to get the 200 questions of the OCA. As I said, it is a complete rip-off (not that I would care - being a copyright abolitionist and all). I am pretty sure Julia would "embellish" the APA to give it more credit via the MMPI as it used to be the King of the Mountain among psychometric tests.
 

afaceinthecrowd

Gold Meritorious Patron
The JTA came out in 1941. JTA graphs appears along with other test results in the pre-chapters of the early SoS releases.

If you compare the JTA with the APA/OCA, you will find that the questions are virtually the same, with one trait and thus 20 questions added to the JTA's 180 to get the 200 questions of the OCA. As I said, it is a complete rip-off (not that I would care - being a copyright abolitionist and all). I am pretty sure Julia would "embellish" the APA to give it more credit via the MMPI as it used to be the King of the Mountain among psychometric tests.

Thanks, Isene. :yes:

The MMPI came out a few years before the JTA. I am not an expert and I appreciate all the time you've put in develop your expertise. I think you are most likely correct re: "pretty sure Julia would "embellish" the APA to give it more credit via the MMPI as it used to be the King of the Mountain among psychometric tests." :thumbsup:

That's not to fault Julia, IMO. Julia was very devoted to Scn and El Ron and was one of the CL VIII's from the Apollo that was there in '68 when the Hisself gave the original lectures. She always "flowed power" to Hisself in everything she did or said. This was even after she had been "overboarded" with El Ron watching the "show" from the Prom Deck. :angry:

Julia was one of the horses that El Ron rode in on. For that, she got a shiv in the back. I've heard El Ron savage Julia in the most disgusting and vial way. Having known her, how much she adored El Ron and just some of how much she had given to Scn in the "Early Days", I was shocked to the core hearing not only Hisself's choice of words but, the utter contempt in Hisself's voice. That moment was one of the early "WTF's" that, years later, lead to my walking away. :coolwink:

Face :)
 
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Isene

Patron with Honors
This fits well with the story I heard about LRH/CoS ditching the Salmens when I believe Ken was paying for cancer treatment for Julia in 1978/79. The Salmens asked for their copyright payment as earlier agreed upon by the church and the church effectively stole it. How on earth they could claim copyright on the test in the first place is beyond me.
 

afaceinthecrowd

Gold Meritorious Patron
This fits well with the story I heard about LRH/CoS ditching the Salmens when I believe Ken was paying for cancer treatment for Julia in 1978/79. The Salmens asked for their copyright payment as earlier agreed upon by the church and the church effectively stole it. How on earth they could claim copyright on the test in the first place is beyond me.

Maybe so...but, that's not the point...all they were asking for was that El Ron do what he had agreed to do, promised to do and had reneged on doing for nearly 2 decades. At that time, El Ron was sitting on millions upon millions of $ in Hisself's personal accounts and 10's of millions upon 10's of millions of $ in Sea Org Reserves.

Face :)
 
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Auditor's Toad

Clear as Mud
This fits well with the story I heard about LRH/CoS ditching the Salmens when I believe Ken was paying for payment cancer treatment for Julia in 1978/79. The Salmens asked for their copyright payment cancer treatment for Julia as earlier agreed upon by the church and the church effectively stole it. How on earth they could claim copyright on the test in the first place is beyond me.

It was only slightly earlier than that when I met her. As I've posted elsewhere, she was just a crushed person. I knew about her being the creator of the APA but this is the first I've heard that she was Class VIII.. or the cancer.

I liked her a whole lot. She was a very nice person to know.
 
Maybe so...but, that's not the point...all they were asking for was that El Ron to do what he had agreed to do, promised to do and had reneged on doing for nearly 2 decades. At that time, El Ron was sitting on millions upon millions of $ in Hisself's personal accounts and 10's of millions upon 10's of millions of $ in Sea Org Reserves.

Face :)

Yes, Face, but that money was being held in trust for the Good of Mankind. :angel:


Mark A. Baker :coolwink:
 

Auditor's Toad

Clear as Mud
Thanks, Isene. :yes:

The MMPI came out a few years before the JTA. I am not an expert and I appreciate all the time you've put in develop your expertise. I think you are most likely correct re: "pretty sure Julia would "embellish" the APA to give it more credit via the MMPI as it used to be the King of the Mountain among psychometric tests." :thumbsup:

That's not to fault Julia, IMO. Julia was very devoted to Scn and El Ron and was one of the CL VIII's from the Apollo that was there in '68 when the Hisself gave the original lectures. She always "flowed power" to Hisself in everything she did or said. This was even after she had been "overboarded" with El Ron watching the "show" from the Prom Deck. :angry:

Julia was one of the horses that El Ron rode in on. For that, she got a shiv in the back. I've heard El Ron savage Julia in the most disgusting and vial way. Having known her, how much she adored El Ron and had just some of how much she had given to Scn in the "Early Days", I was shocked to the core hearing not only Hisself's choice of words but, the utter contempt in Hisself's voice. That moment was one of the early "WTF's" that, years later, lead to my walking away. :coolwink:

Face :)

Would it not be fair to say that everyone who stood out in scn in most any way that hisself sooner or later turned on them with a vengence ?
 

Lulu Belle

Moonbat
Julia was one of the horses that El Ron rode in on. For that, she got a shiv in the back. I've heard El Ron savage Julia in the most disgusting and vial way. Having known her, how much she adored El Ron and had just some of how much she had given to Scn in the "Early Days", I was shocked to the core hearing not only Hisself's choice of words but, the utter contempt in Hisself's voice. That moment was one of the early "WTF's" that, years later, lead to my walking away. :coolwink:

Face :)


I had similar reactions reading some LRH advices from the 70s. In them he shredded several long time devoted staff like Mary and David Ziff. Mary was devoted to LRH; as a matter of fact, it was her who gave me the advice pack to read where he said some nasty stuff about her.

Talk about "cognitive dissonance"....
 

Isene

Patron with Honors
Maybe so...but, that's not the point...all they were asking for was that El Ron to do what he had agreed to do, promised to do and had reneged on doing for nearly 2 decades. At that time, El Ron was sitting on millions upon millions of $ in Hisself's personal accounts and 10's of millions upon 10's of millions of $ in Sea Org Reserves.

That was indeed my main point. The lack of compassion.
 

Mystic

Crusader
And regardless of that test being valid or invalid, Scientology would use it in their standard tricky-dicky twisty twist-twist fashion.
 

Veda

Sponsor
Re-post of comments by Alan Walter regarding Julia

That was indeed my main point. The lack of compassion.

In a post on ESMB, Alan Walter, Mission holder and student on the original Class VIII course, remembered an incident on the ship involving Julia Salmon. It's at the bottom.

John McMaster, from a 1985 interview:

"He [Hubbard] got the technology to the point where he had a sort of assembly line as he called it. And he told me how he was putting all these 'square ball bearings' on the beginning of the assembly line, and then turning them into 'round ball bearings' at the other end. That was his idea of 'standard tech'."

The following is provided for any lurkers, who might be wondering where the cruelty in Scientology originated:

First, an excerpt from Russell Miller's interview of David Mayo, Class XII, from August 1986.

This excerpt concerns events from the late 1960s:

"He [Hubbard] could be capable of incredible cruelty. On the ship there was an old man on the Royal Scotman who he made push a peanut round the decks with his nose. He had to get down on his hands and knees, he had to go round the deck, quite a long distance in a race with one or two others also in trouble. The first one back got let off and the last one got a double penalty.

"It was really tough on this old guy, Charlie Reisdorf. The surface of the deck was very rough wood, prone to splinter, so after pushing peanuts with their noses, they all had raw, bleeding noses, leaving a trail of blood behind them. I not only saw it but the entire crew of the ship was mustered - a mandatory attendance - we were required to watch this punishment, to make an example of it for the rest of us. Reisdorf was in his late 50s probably. His two daughters were messengers, they were 11 or 12 at time and his wife was there also.

"It was hard to say which was worse to watch: this old guy with a bleeding nose or his wife and kids sobbing and crying at being forced to watch this. Hubbard was standing there calling the shots, yelling, 'Faster, Faster!'. It was indignity, degradation and breaking a person's will, and making people watch. It was disgusting...

"They used to have people locked in the chain locker, including small children. It was very dangerous because if the anchor started to slip and started running out, it would probably turn a body into a pulp in no time at all...

"He [LRH] had a birthday party on March 13, 1968; there was a woman who he ordered locked in the chain locker. During the party he had brought her out. She was filthy, covered with dirt and rust, and had not been allowed to wash or change clothes - she had been in there for a week... he brought her out to the party. He said he was giving her a reprieve and permitting her to come to the party, as if that was a nice gesture. She wasn't allowed to change. She was brought to the party and had to stay, and later was returned [to the chain locker]... it was flaunting her degradation...

"Why did people stand by?...

"From time to time, Hubbard would cancel such activities like the chain locker, and blame it on someone else... He would start such pronouncements with, 'It has just come to my attention...'

"The length of time for children would vary, but no one was less than a day...

"Reisdorf [peanut pushing] affair - if someone tried to do something, it would have made it worse. Hubbard said that maritime law prevailed... He said that under maritime law, he had total power over everyone on the vessel..."


And one brief excerpt concerning events from the late 1970s:

"He told me he was obsessed with an insatiable lust for power and money. He said it very emphatically. He thought it wasn't possible to get enough. He didn't say it as if it was a fault, just his frustration that he couldn't get enough."

And this from Alan Walter, from a 2007 post:

"...there was one stuck picture that would not go away. Behind it was at that time an unthinkable thought.

"Ron had Julia Salmon thrown overboard... Julia was... terribly overweight, and could not swim.

"The people who threw her overboard struggled to get her over the side; she was terrified; she kept crying out "I cannot swim!" On her way down she hit the side of the ship - I could hear her screams - it was obvious she was injured and drowning.

"The people on the deck all stood around too afraid to do anything. Fearing to originate any action less the become the target of LRHs displeasure.

"I ran and jumped over the side and rescued her. I then pulled her over to the ladder that led up to the ground level of the dock........it was about 20 feet straight up. She could not climb the steps. I had my shoulders under her butt pushing her up..... no one still had come to help.......but at the top of that ladder stood LRH filming us.....such evil.......


"Anyway after an immense struggle with Julia's help I was able to push her up to the top of the ladder....finally some help arrived.

"Over the years the unthinkable thought pushed forward more and more....it was 'that I observe that LRH was demonic at that time'. I did not want to know that, did not want to believe that.......that was too incredible to be believed - even for me - I did the usual make nothing of myself....'you're seeing things' 'what do you know' 'you've got overts' - much easier to blame self than confront what is..."
 

afaceinthecrowd

Gold Meritorious Patron
I had similar reactions reading some LRH advices from the 70s. In them he shredded several long time devoted staff like Mary and David Ziff. Mary was devoted to LRH; as a matter of fact, it was her who gave me the advice pack to read where he said some nasty stuff about her.

Talk about "cognitive dissonance"....

I knew David and Mary and I held their infant child in my arms.

David was Ivy League Educated, very smart, an accomplished athlete and a most proper gentleman. Mary was a lovely devoted wife, mother and Scn. I hope they are doing well wherever they are today.

During the “List 1 RS’er" insanity at the FLB in the mid-70’s, David--who had nearly single handedly--made Advance Mag what it was, was literally overnight sent to the RPF. Like to broke my heart to see him there and look in Mary’s eyes the next day. David and Mary had an infant in the FLB Nursery at that time. I will never forget the dignity, the grace and steadfastness that they showed during what must have been such dark, dark days for them. A month or so later, El Ron came out with Hisself’s “RS’es mean something different on a 'Clear' and 'OT'” Bulletin and David was immediately out of the RPF.

What I saw happen to folks like David and Mary and their sweet child are why I am here and my mouth is finally open. It didn’t have to be this way. It just didn’t have to be this way. :angry:

Face :)
 
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Lulu Belle

Moonbat
David was Ivy League Educated, very smart, an accomplished athlete and a most proper gentleman. Mary was a lovely devoted wife, mother and Scn. I hope they are doing well wherever they are today.

Mary died a few years ago. Don't know the details. David appears to be well and remarried; he's on Facebook. Their son Cameron was a professional tennis player last I knew. I always got the impression he wanted nothing to do with Scn.
 

afaceinthecrowd

Gold Meritorious Patron
Mary died a few years ago. Don't know the details. David appears to be well and remarried; he's on Facebook. Their son Cameron was a professional tennis player last I knew. I always got the impression he wanted nothing to do with Scn.

Thank you so much, Lulu Belle. :yes: I'm not on Facebook.


Mary...:bigcry::bigcry::bigcry:...May The Circle Be Unbroken.

Face :rose:
 

HelluvaHoax!

Platinum Meritorious Sponsor with bells on
I'm not on Facebook.

If you ever come to your senses, recant, rehab & rejoin Scientology, we have our own theta version of Facebook you should join.

SpaceCaseBook​

Everyone on SpaceCaseBook is winning just the way we used to win when Ron was on the lines.

We had computers, you know back in the Galactic Confederation, that were so much better than the wog computers on this planet. Back when we were in space and OT, Ron said we could mock up computers and other things without needing low toned MEST meat body companies like Apple that don't know any of Ron's tech on chain locker, overboards and head-on-a-pike. They are doomed to fail, you can count on that!

I really have no idea of what you people are nattering about on this thread because Ron had policies to ensure everyone was winning. If the people (Salmon, Ziff, et al...) were not having wins, they obviously were not following Ron's policies.

Can we knock off the natter already and get back to winning?
 
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