Question on Natural Clear

phenomanon

Canyon
Hi, yea I had an exact similar experience. I am not an ex auditor but for sure a fellow natural clear. Yea they sent me to do the CCRD as well after the bulletin came out and I attested as well. I had the exact same feeling as you at the time. If natural clears are so few, then how come there are so many attests in this short period of time? Then of course the term kind of disappeared almost as fast as it appeared.

I rarely bother any more researching Scientology to try and find where I went wrong but I will say that today I did find something, kind of a lot actually (compared to just one sentence previously) surrounding the tech Ron released about the state of Natural Clear.

Evidently there were not as many as you and I seem to recall. The internet data I found said that 7 beings attested to Natural clear in June and July of 1979.And it said see: periodical 'Source 21, June July Flag completions. And another 12 Natural Clears attested in in Aug 1979 (see periodical 'Ability 329, Aug 79 "graduates and releases"

Well I tried researching these on the web ya know, just to see if my name was there but could not find these two references. I am 62 and terrible with computers and web searching. Maybe your better at it at than me and can find at least your name listed there if not mine as well.

Doesn't it all seem so mystical?? It does to me. Especially now that I may have stumbled across data that suggests there were only 19 beings who attested to this state of natural clear and none after that. Perhaps their names are listed under completions in these two periodicals. If so I think it would be a good idea if those 19 beings got into communication with one another even if my name is not on the list. I can't do much more research anytime soon as I am pretty burnt out. Then some how your post popped up so I was compelled to respond to it!! :)


Joy, when I was delivering Clear Rundowns in the PAC area, I personally sent a few HUNDRED "natural clears" to attest.
I don't know what you read, but whatever it was, it was inaccurate ( actually, outright lies).
 

Some Random Guy

Patron with Honors
I attested to last life clear in 1992.

Big whoopie :headspin:

But the best session I ever had was reading Jon Atak's book, A Piece of Blue Sky. I realised that my feelings towards Hubbard were well founded, realised that the person I recalled was the Hubbard in Jons' book and not the church PR image of him.

Let us clears be honest with each other. Did any of you ever measure up to the definition of Clear, as it is written in the book?

Hmmmmmm?

Thought so.
 

Gizmo

Rabble Rouser
I didn't read the whole thread. I could almost write a book on how dear old Doctor Hubbard missed the boat, but, I leave it as this :
Dear old Doctor Hubbard ran down the dock and jumped for knowledge of the mind about the time that boat docked in Hong Kong.

In absolutely nothing to do with Doctor Hubbard or any of his discoveries or any of what he stole from others there is one thing most people can achieve in life & that is clarity about his that or the other - not everything.

This clarity some people achieve and pretty much keep and for others it seems to come and go.

IMHO clarity doesn't particularly come from a guru but comes from finding ones true self and I highly suspect that is most often a different path for each of us.

One path that has proven not to work is scientology in any way shape or form. I seen many many very good auditors go all the way to OT 8 - and they are just people like the rest of us in that they are imperfect yet have good moments and some success in life - or not.

The dear wonderful people who were really bright & only ever held the cans to OT 8 ? Same story, some still had wonderful personalities but were still prone to be imperfect.

This is no scientology clear only clarity available here and there in life.

But the rubble , ruin & outright destruction scientology has left in it's wake of so many over such a long period of time makes dabbling in it such a bad risk for anyone.

PS : Not to be catty but the few people I knew who attested to " Natural Clear " were pretty much what I'd call " No Case Gain " PC's that never had much TA action no matter what they were audited on.
 

DeeAnna

Patron Meritorious
What I'm finding to be quite amazing is that if only 19 people were ever declared to be "natural clears" that three of them would be on this board! :eyeroll::eyeroll::eyeroll::eyeroll:
 

AnonyMary

Formerly Fooled - Finally Free
Hey all ex Auditors, I was on staff at SF mission back in 1978. Been out some 29 plus years. I was getting auditing and working my way up to Clear, then a bulletin came out about "Natural Clear". They sent me up to there Portland mission and did a Certainty Rundown on me, and I attested to Clear. What kind of deal was this? If you noticed, after this Natural Clear notice came out, around 1978, 1979-The most Clears ever in COS history were being reported to advance magazine. What was the Deal folks? Let me know? Thanks, Mark

First of all, welcome!

# of Clears stopping being published many years ago for different reasons, mainly because people stopped moving up the bridge.

# Natural Clears stopped even earlier due to the fact that people talking about attesting to Natural Clear and it being announced or as such, was causing a surge in people attesting to that particular 'state'. One of the reasons for the CCRD was the influx of Natural Clear attestations that later were determined to not be valid,

Another reason why the counting of Natural Clears stopped, IIRC, was something along the lines that "A Clear is a Clear" so certs showing Natural Clear began to be written only as Clear.


Hi, yea I had an exact similar experience. I am not an ex auditor but for sure a fellow natural clear. Yea they sent me to do the CCRD as well after the bulletin came out and I attested as well. I had the exact same feeling as you at the time. If natural clears are so few, then how come there are so many attests in this short period of time? Then of course the term kind of disappeared almost as fast as it appeared.

I rarely bother any more researching Scientology to try and find where I went wrong but I will say that today I did find something, kind of a lot actually (compared to just one sentence previously) surrounding the tech Ron released about the state of Natural Clear.

Evidently there were not as many as you and I seem to recall. The internet data I found said that 7 beings attested to Natural clear in June and July of 1979.And it said see: periodical 'Source 21, June July Flag completions. And another 12 Natural Clears attested in in Aug 1979 (see periodical 'Ability 329, Aug 79 "graduates and releases"

Well I tried researching these on the web ya know, just to see if my name was there but could not find these two references. I am 62 and terrible with computers and web searching. Maybe your better at it at than me and can find at least your name listed there if not mine as well.

Doesn't it all seem so mystical?? It does to me. Especially now that I may have stumbled across data that suggests there were only 19 beings who attested to this state of natural clear and none after that. Perhaps their names are listed under completions in these two periodicals. If so I think it would be a good idea if those 19 beings got into communication with one another even if my name is not on the list. I can't do much more research anytime soon as I am pretty burnt out. Then some how your post popped up so I was compelled to respond to it!! :)

Welcome, Joy :) The information found online is obtained from people donating copies of mags to the site owner, who then has them types in with the help of others. Not all mags are there. Only those obtained by the site for listing. So that is probably why you didn't see your name.

Scientology Clears - Scientology's Stats Are Down
Clear Lists
Kristi writes:
The primary sources for these statistics are Scientology's Auditor magazine.

I have a complete run of Auditor magazines from 1977, 1978, and 1979. This was the most productive period for Clear attests in Scientology history: recent Auditors contain the claim that "There are now more than 50,000 Clears!" Nearly 20,000 Clear attests were announced between issue 131 - January 1977, which claimed 5812 Clears - and issue 166 - November 1979, which claimed over 26,000 Clears.

Note that the magazine stopped listing Clear Numbers in 1986 and stopped printing even an approximated total number of clears ("nearly 50,000" or "over 50,000") in 1999.

The following lists of Clear attests were taken from Auditor magazines. More will be added as I get them.
Read on for more information and listing of numbers noted in which Ability Mag
http://www.truthaboutscientology.com/stats/clears/

See the list by number.. you can then see why yours is not included. For example, Auditor 165 range of # Clear numbers given isn't available, which explained to me why my Clear attest was not on the site

Ms phenomanon probably didn't know how this works...
 

Gizmo

Rabble Rouser
Joy, when I was delivering Clear Rundowns in the PAC area, I personally sent a few HUNDRED "natural clears" to attest.
I don't know what you read, but whatever it was, it was inaccurate ( actually, outright lies).

That matches my experience.

Then there was the less exotic last lifetime clear.

There are so many variations of the non existence 'state' that Doctor Hubbard called 'clear'.

Can I attest to being The Easter Bunny ?
 

Some Random Guy

Patron with Honors
That matches my experience.

Then there was the less exotic last lifetime clear.

There are so many variations of the non existence 'state' that Doctor Hubbard called 'clear'.

Can I attest to being The Easter Bunny ?


You may recall that other state of Clear as described in New Slant on Life, The One Shot Clear. It had a very simple command: "Be 3 three feet back of

your head" and half the population could achieve this.

So it now appears that Clear had many other definitions.Then Hubbard introduced Theta Clear and he was clearer than a Clear. But the ultimate state

was........ wait for it...........Cleared Theta Clear! Now this guy was awesome, he could tear up phonebook, just by looking at them!

The only being ever to have attained this state is Chuck Norris.
 

uncover

Gold Meritorious Patron
Personally, methinks that El Ron came up with "Natural Clear" to hedge Hisself's bet re: why Hisself "was able to rise above the 'Bank'". :coolwink::whistling::eyeroll:
No, no, no..... The explanation for this mystery has been uncovered more than 15 years before on Aug 8, 1961 in Saint Hill:

El Con Hubbard said:
.....
Native state: the potentiality of knowing everything.
.....
The proof that El Con was a "native state" is the Knowingness of the Xenu story..... cherubs, flashes, bangs.....:coolwink:

The only thing El Con did NOT know is if and when he will be allowed to leave the purgatory and return to this planet to paint it red as a political leader....:omg:
 

Boojuum

Silver Meritorious Patron
My recollection is that in '78 and '79 the prices for auditing were skyrocketing. PC's getting blocks and blocks of intensives were rare. People were attesting to all sorts of states and getting certs for these weird states. It seemed that anyone stuck as a pc for any reason adopted the notion that they were of course clear...FN VGI's. C/S's seemed to be asking "bypassed states?" or "bypassed the state of clear?" in D of P interviews. One couldn't help but notice the legion of folks attesting to "Natural Clear" which gave those of us who didn't attest the sense that we could very well be "clear" since these dopes who were attesting certainly didn't seem any less aberrated than the rest of us. I think some of these "natural clears" didn't run Dianetic MIP's as described in DMSMH and therefore thought they had to be clear already.

Whatever. It was a crazy time. Defining the clear state was tough if you looked at the DMSMH definition and later progressions. Then the SRD came out. NOT's came out. Then the purif came out. The TR's got revamped. Then the HRD came out.

Attestations are part of the ego boosting that makes Scientology "work".

I witnessed folks who could have been institutional cases declaring themselves to be "clear". One guy told me he was at the examiner telling her he thought he must be clear and she told him his needle was floating. That was all the proof this dude needed.

Hubs created absolute states such as "Clear" or Grade 0 that no one seemed to be able to confirm the existance of. However, being clear is a great idea. Maybe someday I'll get there.
 

TheOriginalBigBlue

Gold Meritorious Patron
# of Clears stopping being published many years ago for different reasons, mainly because people stopped moving up the bridge.

# Natural Clears stopped even earlier due to the fact that people talking about attesting to Natural Clear and it being announced or as such, was causing a surge in people attesting to that particular 'state'. One of the reasons for the CCRD was the influx of Natural Clear attestations that later were determined to not be valid,

Another reason why the counting of Natural Clears stopped, IIRC, was something along the lines that "A Clear is a Clear" so certs showing Natural Clear began to be written only as Clear.

Doesn't it only really make sense to keep and announce a running Clear count if it is an absolute state? Otherwise, to be honest, they would also have to factor in the retractions and the figure would fluctuate up and down. It would only be natural to assume that if the state of Clear was inconsistent then so might the states of OT, etc., or there was a lot of sloppy tech delivery. Eventually the number of CCRD completions stat would collide with the total number of Clear stat to anyone who was paying attention.

Behind the scenes this Natural Clear thing must have been a complete debacle. LRH fed a very low threshold definition to a group of people who were already in a "competitive/status" driven mindset thinking that they could also skip a whole lot of expensive auditing only to later be routed onto very expensive corrective auditing that they wouldn't have needed if the state wasn't created out of whole cloth to begin with.

The financial motivation behind attesting to Natural Clear during this time must have been a significant factor.

This was during the recovery period following the 73-75 recession and people were still hurting financially and mortgage interest rates could be 12-17%. see chart: http://www.mortgage-x.com/general/indexes/prime.asp.
_____
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1973–75_recession

In the United States, the economic recovery from the 1973 to 1975 recession had many of the characteristics of a typical U-type recovery. GNP (the measure at the time) reached and exceeded its pre-recession level by first quarter 1976. Industrial production had recovered to its pre-recession levels by the end of 1976.[SUP][13][/SUP] The major influence of the experience of the 1974 recession came in the form of the concept of stagflation, that is, inflation during a period of recession. The Federal Reserve, as a result, adjusted its mandate in believing that the inflation-unemployment tradeoff was much higher than previously thought, established a six percent target as full employment. Thus, unemployment, which had reached a peak of 9% in May 1975 did not dip below 6% until June 1978. As a matter of fact, the pre-1974 recession level of 4.6 percent unemployment was not reached again until November 1997, when the Federal Reserve deviated from its prior policy
 

Gib

Crusader
Doesn't it only really make sense to keep and announce a running Clear count if it is an absolute state? Otherwise, to be honest, they would also have to factor in the retractions and the figure would fluctuate up and down. It would only be natural to assume that if the state of Clear was inconsistent then so might the states of OT, etc., or there was a lot of sloppy tech delivery. Eventually the number of CCRD completions stat would collide with the total number of Clear stat to anyone who was paying attention.

Behind the scenes this Natural Clear thing must have been a complete debacle. LRH fed a very low threshold definition to a group of people who were already in a "competitive/status" driven mindset thinking that they could also skip a whole lot of expensive auditing only to later be routed onto very expensive corrective auditing that they wouldn't have needed if the state wasn't created out of whole cloth to begin with.

The financial motivation behind attesting to Natural Clear during this time must have been a significant factor.

This was during the recovery period following the 73-75 recession and people were still hurting financially and mortgage interest rates could be 12-17%. see chart: http://www.mortgage-x.com/general/indexes/prime.asp.
_____
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1973–75_recession

In the United States, the economic recovery from the 1973 to 1975 recession had many of the characteristics of a typical U-type recovery. GNP (the measure at the time) reached and exceeded its pre-recession level by first quarter 1976. Industrial production had recovered to its pre-recession levels by the end of 1976.[SUP][13][/SUP] The major influence of the experience of the 1974 recession came in the form of the concept of stagflation, that is, inflation during a period of recession. The Federal Reserve, as a result, adjusted its mandate in believing that the inflation-unemployment tradeoff was much higher than previously thought, established a six percent target as full employment. Thus, unemployment, which had reached a peak of 9% in May 1975 did not dip below 6% until June 1978. As a matter of fact, the pre-1974 recession level of 4.6 percent unemployment was not reached again until November 1997, when the Federal Reserve deviated from its prior policy

I'd have to check the time period, but maybe PTS to the middle class policy letter or tech came out about the same time period. :confused2:

to justify what you say for hubbard to make it true, to keep people in.
 

AnonyMary

Formerly Fooled - Finally Free
Doesn't it only really make sense to keep and announce a running Clear count if it is an absolute state? Otherwise, to be honest, they would also have to factor in the retractions and the figure would fluctuate up and down. It would only be natural to assume that if the state of Clear was inconsistent then so might the states of OT, etc., or there was a lot of sloppy tech delivery. Eventually the number of CCRD completions stat would collide with the total number of Clear stat to anyone who was paying attention.

Behind the scenes this Natural Clear thing must have been a complete debacle. LRH fed a very low threshold definition to a group of people who were already in a "competitive/status" driven mindset thinking that they could also skip a whole lot of expensive auditing only to later be routed onto very expensive corrective auditing that they wouldn't have needed if the state wasn't created out of whole cloth to begin with.

The financial motivation behind attesting to Natural Clear during this time must have been a significant factor.

This was during the recovery period following the 73-75 recession and people were still hurting financially and mortgage interest rates could be 12-17%. see chart: http://www.mortgage-x.com/general/indexes/prime.asp.
_____
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1973–75_recession

In the United States, the economic recovery from the 1973 to 1975 recession had many of the characteristics of a typical U-type recovery. GNP (the measure at the time) reached and exceeded its pre-recession level by first quarter 1976. Industrial production had recovered to its pre-recession levels by the end of 1976.[SUP][13][/SUP] The major influence of the experience of the 1974 recession came in the form of the concept of stagflation, that is, inflation during a period of recession. The Federal Reserve, as a result, adjusted its mandate in believing that the inflation-unemployment tradeoff was much higher than previously thought, established a six percent target as full employment. Thus, unemployment, which had reached a peak of 9% in May 1975 did not dip below 6% until June 1978. As a matter of fact, the pre-1974 recession level of 4.6 percent unemployment was not reached again until November 1997, when the Federal Reserve deviated from its prior policy


There are no absolutes :coolwink:

reference:
"LOGIC 6. ABSOLUTES ARE UNOBTAINABLE"
 

Hatshepsut

Crusader
I thought the Natural Clear thing per Cap'n Bill was all about HOW a person got linked to this timetrack and our local universe space. It's supposed to be about the initial agreements or the add-ons the being received as a prerequisite for playing in this current universe. :confused2: LRH said he just 'never agreed' that's all. I'm just remembering some of this now. :unsure:

From the viewpoint of the guys in the galactic patrol, the missionaires were the Naturals,. I guess these are conjectured to be the Johnny-come-latelies arriving on the playing field and they've 'missed' the Incident One. I think it's Tech Briefing 4 of Ron's Org.

I don't think it matters. Once you're here, like at the Hotel California, you're pretty much screwed.
 
Last edited:

Panda Termint

Cabal Of One
"Per Captain Bill... " :confused2:

Say no more! :hysterical:

FTR, there's actually a Hubbard lecture where he talks about how he "came to rise above the bank". Redcoats, musket balls and all that. He was bullshitting us, as usual. :)
 

TheOriginalBigBlue

Gold Meritorious Patron
There are no absolutes :coolwink:

reference:
"LOGIC 6. ABSOLUTES ARE UNOBTAINABLE"

I'm imagining some guy using that on LRH:

Sea Org Member, Bill: "Sir, according to Logic 6, there are no absolutes".

LRH: "Well Bill, here is a Flag Order that says any time you are assigned to the RPF you will absolutely work in the Engine Room. You can start right now."

But I digress.

LRH wanted to treat the Clear count like it was absolute.

When they announce the fatality list for the war in Afganistan, for example, there might be the possibility of a counting error but for the most part it is a reliable figure. There is no cancellation of the state of deceased and an ongoing adjustment of the figures up and down. There is no Death Certainty Rundown to verify or negate the state. This approximates absolute in a way that the church treated the Total Clear statistic.

The entire concept of a Clear list that only goes upwards was always illogical. Plus, if someone defects, becomes a critic, gets declared an SP - does the church doggedly insist that someone can retain the state of Clear and still be antithetical to Scientology and even the concept of Clear? So the whole idea of a running count was also politically impractical.

Its ironic that LRH instituted the heavy reliance upon statistics in part as a promotional vehicle for touting success but it has become a nightmare of their own making. When I shop a stock the first thing I like to do is view the chart as far back as it will go just to get an idea of its potential range for decline. What does the yearly Clear chart look like going back to 1953 adjusted for revoked Clears? If they stopped publicizing the stat, that is probably when it when flat.
 

Dulloldfart

Squirrel Extraordinaire
The entire concept of a Clear list that only goes upwards was always illogical.

Look at the history of this. There was a log book, big hard-cover thing, with numbers and names, kept in a Saint Hill Qual filing cabinet. It was the historical record, THE ledger. When someone got declared Clear his name got added as the next number. If someone died it made no difference as they were still the 147th person (say) to get their name in the book.

Along with this, the latest names got into the Auditor mag, with the tag line "Now there are ____ Clears!" That tag line was misleading: it didn't mean that the current number of members in the Clear club was ___ , it meant that ___ people had had their names hand-written on paper in this logbook. In a sense it wasn't even false if you believed that when people died they still retained their, er, Clearness.

Fast forward to 1980 or so, with the Clear fiasco, and it all fell apart. But the above is how it started off.

Paul
 
Last edited:

Dulloldfart

Squirrel Extraordinaire
The Clear Club! That's cool. Sort of reminds me of The Mickey Mouse Club!

Back in the 70s there was an "I Want to Go Clear Club" that was used as a come-on device by reges at Saint Hill. The "club" didn't exist beyond an idea and flyers that we sent out by the thousand to lower-level (non-Clear) peeps on the comm lines. The flyer had lines to fill in name, address, training and processing done, some biographical data, "date you intend to arrive to start services at Saint Hill" (I think), and (hopeful) here's my payment schedule. I was a Letter Reg for a few years and sent out these things for a while. Every now and then someone would fill one out and send it back. It got filed in the CF folder, all grist to the regging mill.

Note that in my post I used a lower-case "c" for club, not wishing to imply there was an actual Clear Club if anyone remembered the old IWTGCC. :)

Paul
 

pineapple

Silver Meritorious Patron
Back in the 70s there was an "I Want to Go Clear Club" that was used as a come-on device by reges at Saint Hill. The "club" didn't exist beyond an idea and flyers that we sent out by the thousand to lower-level (non-Clear) peeps on the comm lines. The flyer had lines to fill in name, address, training and processing done, some biographical data, "date you intend to arrive to start services at Saint Hill" (I think), and (hopeful) here's my payment schedule. I was a Letter Reg for a few years and sent out these things for a while. Every now and then someone would fill one out and send it back. It got filed in the CF folder, all grist to the regging mill.

Note that in my post I used a lower-case "c" for club, not wishing to imply there was an actual Clear Club if anyone remembered the old IWTGCC. :)

Paul

I remember the "I Want to Go Clear Club." I didn't until you mentioned it. It turned out to be more of a Mickey Mouse Club than we knew at the time, didn't it?

After "Dianetic Clear" there wasn't much point to it. Almost anybody could walk in the door and say they were clear. It was more of an "I Already Went Clear" club.
 
Top