Question on Natural Clear

Gib

Crusader
Yes, I audited at least 6 sessions a day, every day, except when I was at Flag or on a persistent FN that wouldn't quit.

I didn't say a Conditions trip lasted 3 months I said "waste 12 weeks (or more) a year". That was in reference to the 6 month checks ie 2 a year at around 6 weeks a pop.

Flag routinely promised that you'd be in and out in 2 weeks on 6MC but that was never the case for anyone I knew.

They often assigned Treason (betrayal after trust) for this sort of stuff. How hard is it to just do the Conditions? It's a helluvalot less arduous than paying the freight on Flag's "license to survive".

I'll just insert this video here on the 6 months check thing:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3C5j63DsmnQ
 

Gib

Crusader
^^^ Yup! ^^^

me ot 8 friend just watched the video last night, LOL (old news is new news for some)

me, lol, as I says to meself "flunk for comm lag", of course I didn't say that to me friend, slow and steady, let the chips fall where they fall, and we discuss freely now. :yes:
 

DeeAnna

Patron Meritorious
I think it is a given that LRH was always financially motivated if that is what you mean. Maybe he was devious enough to dangle this out there knowing people would use it to skip straight to OT and then he could tangle them all up in expensive corrective actions after the fact.

I was trying to make a point that for the person attesting to Natural Clear at the time the cost saving aspect could be very inviting. Maybe knowing you were going to save a couple grand in 1978 (adjusted for inflation) dollars in itself was enough to FN on the attest.

But he also went on that price increasing binge and a property buying spree and ratcheted up the Birthday Game stat push about the same time - while the staff were on rice and beans.

My personal theory is that he was already having undetected micro strokes and was in the early stages of dementia. It would explain a lot about DM also. If I had to work closely with a senile LRH from the age of 16 I probably would have danced on his grave and claimed the throne as well deserved payback. Then I would start to clean up all the insanity like stop promoting the Clear Completions stat - only by then, my mind would probably be pretty much gone also.


Yes, BigBlue, I agree with this. Just to look at his girth, it would appear he didn't maintain a healthy diet - so I figure lots of arteries clogging to cause vascular dementia - the type where the brain is not getting enough oxygen and it begins to deteriorate. And at his age he was a candidate for both Alzheimer's dementia and Lewy Body Dementia. Plus I believe he had undiagnosed mental illness throughout his life.

People can have any or all of the various types of dementia. One of the saddest things I've encountered lately was to read Robin Williams' autopsy report. (The poor man. RIP) Yes, it is online.

I can attest from personal experience within my own family that dealing with a self-centered "strongly opinionated" person who descends into dementia is no picnic for those around them. They can become quite abusive to everyone around them.

I sure wish Pat Broeker (sp?) would write a book.
 

Hatshepsut

Crusader
The cost-saving aspect may have been an early motivation, but shortly after past-life clear and natural clear were announced, there was also the announcement that clears would be doing grades.

So clears didn't end up missing much of the bridge at all, no matter how they attested. Just a bit of Dianetics is all, and then there was NOTS, which was supposedly at first for clears who could not / did not run Dianetics, so at the end of the day, since NOTS was so much more expensive, the past life and natural clear attests ended up paying more anyway.

When I got out to ASHO in March of 1982 the Clear Certainty Rundown was almost 4 intensives for some. They were filling in flows, doing objectives and HRDs and everything. These were requisites/ like OT preps in order to satisfy the the C/Ses at AOLA. Just because some folks thought Ron had audited them to Clear in 1947 ....they did not get to pass automatically to the OT I. My ex husband was one of these characters. He ran out of funds after a couple weeks on the CCRD out there. The folder error summaries were extensive as certain key cognitions were being searched for. My friend, Kathy Cormier Frank was a CCRD auditor, a Class VI from Miami working at ASHO... and I stayed in her home. She filled me in on what she was handling daily.

IMHO the reactive mind is a sort of "flypaper" that engrams stick to. A clear CAN have engrams, but they're not so "sticky" any more, and can be removed by inspection.

Perhaps most of the engrams a clear has after going clear is simply those that were out of restimulation, not available to be picked up, and generally no trouble at all for the person. When one does pop up, it can be removed easily, without a formal session. New engramic experiences would be a little more difficult, but without a full "bank" to help hold it in place, it's still rather easy.

And if a clear is clear, what does ze need the OT levels for? The quick answer is that even a clear is still at the effect of the reactive minds of OTHERS.

Just my 5.6 Hungarian Forint.

Helena

I have been reading a book I got from a link on this MB. It is called The Golden Flower. There is a lot of Chinese alchemy and kabbala, Golden Dawn and Elixir of Life stuff subtly put in it. It was published in 1932. I can see where Ron got his creation story..the Factors, and his adeptus minor grade.

My neighbor just got back from doing Avatar Professional Course.. It states conciousness is created. We source it. It's an outflow. We issue it (yang) impressing upon this receptive Yin consciousness. Its a sort of soft theta that 'holds' or molds to the considerations issued forth. Creativity like in the crown at Kether. It is the area leading down to phenomenon which responds to sourced prime ideas. These can be anything. The raw material accepts identity.

I think a person with more GO and less frustrated goals has greater hoesepower to navigate between his caches of recorded counter efforts too. If he is winning he's not using them as an excuse for his failures. He has space between his own viewpoint and any identities in his closet. It's all relative to how well off he's doing.....how clear he is. At a complete stop he's become solid. I am of the opinion that there is a memory of some war between the universes in any psyche. The implant GPMs are probably old tricks we used to reduce a free, flowing and creative life form, into a solid or a completely dead life unit... Conquest of personal universes for more playing field. Kinda what we see right now playing out with the Sustainable Development- homogenization to level the playing field. The lie is that it's to raise up those still struggling at an aboriginal level. The purpose is really opposite of that I fear.

David_Mayo.jpg


Excerpts from a 1989 article by David Mayo on Clear:

( Complete article - http://www.ivymag.org/iv-01-02.html )

_________________________________________
START QUOTE


Clear

By David Mayo, USA.

In late 1978, the state of "dianetic clear" was announced. Within a few months two other "states of clear" were introduced: the state of "natural clear" and the state of "past life clear".
.

I read or listened to something David said about cases recently. He said they cannot be handled as if they are the same or like all regimes of processes have to be run exactly the same for each person.

When I was at the AAC in Santa Barbara I wanted to do CC platens. I saw another girl was on it. He said no, she was different. There were several people there in 1983 who claimed past involvement with Zen or Buddhism. One was Steve Arras. One was me. One was Kathleen Martin. And two of their staff, Donna and Harvey Haber went to Nepal. How people were C/S ed for was different. Not everyone labors under the same human misconceptions. Not everybody has a ser fac they are using. '. Not everyone is stuck in Dianetic type O/Ws. Not everyone has had a lot of lifetimes here. Not everyone has had a lot of trauma on their track. One person seemed to go from Clear attest to NOTS as if OT III was not his case charge. One person who got out his credit card for the Ls was told he did not need them.

David Mayo seemed perfectly willing to let a person HAVE what could most do them good according to 'where' the person seemed to be. After all, when is water really pure, when it's only 1% rat poop? Sumthin like that. No absolutes. And some people because of circumstances bave gotten to ride through (this life at least) mostly keyed-out.
 
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TheOriginalBigBlue

Gold Meritorious Patron
Yes, BigBlue, I agree with this. Just to look at his girth, it would appear he didn't maintain a healthy diet - so I figure lots of arteries clogging to cause vascular dementia - the type where the brain is not getting enough oxygen and it begins to deteriorate. And at his age he was a candidate for both Alzheimer's dementia and Lewy Body Dementia. Plus I believe he had undiagnosed mental illness throughout his life.

People can have any or all of the various types of dementia. One of the saddest things I've encountered lately was to read Robin Williams' autopsy report. (The poor man. RIP) Yes, it is online.

I can attest from personal experience within my own family that dealing with a self-centered "strongly opinionated" person who descends into dementia is no picnic for those around them. They can become quite abusive to everyone around them.

I sure wish Pat Broeker (sp?) would write a book.

Plus he smoked like a chimney most of his life. Cool Menthol, ugh, god-awful stuff. I never heard of him doing any physical activity when I was in. As far as I knew he stayed holed up and out of sight. The small vessels in the brain may only be the diameter of one red blood cell and if it gets constricted from sugar or other deposits to where it doesn't expand on the upbeat then that one cell can get lodged and cut off the blood supply to a small portion of the brain. That area atrophies and scarifies. These show up well with modern imaging technology as white splotches but even if LRH got imaged in the years leading up to his death I don't know if they could easily see micro strokes very well with conventional x-ray. This can change the way a person behaves many years before noticeable dementia sets in and a laddered decline is evident. As you mention, if someone already has a serious attitude problem or dysfunctionality it can be accentuated and there could have been many other causes or factors.

I suspect that the inner circle who were close to LRH knew he was slipping. They may not have known why or even been permitted to discuss it but if I could sense it down the line in the 70s in the results of his decisions then it must have been very obvious by the time he died. There may have even been a certain amount of sympathy and understanding for Miscavige amongst these people because of this. Word is DM would complain about how he had to do everything and from his perspective, having to hide LRH's decline while he tried to run things, this notion might have been very real. Personally I think LRH favored him exactly because they shared a similar narcissistic dysfunctionality and the trait came fully into its own after LRH was gone.

But again, this is just my own speculation. Maybe some day Pat or Shelly will clear it all up for us.
 

Some Random Guy

Patron with Honors
IMHO the reactive mind is a sort of "flypaper" that engrams stick to. A clear CAN have engrams, but they're not so "sticky" any more, and can be removed by inspection.

Perhaps most of the engrams a clear has after going clear is simply those that were out of restimulation, not available to be picked up, and generally no trouble at all for the person. When one does pop up, it can be removed easily, without a formal session. New engramic experiences would be a little more difficult, but without a full "bank" to help hold it in place, it's still rather easy.

And if a clear is clear, what does ze need the OT levels for? The quick answer is that even a clear is still at the effect of the reactive minds of OTHERS.

Just my 5.6 Hungarian Forint.

Helena


Yes, I can relate to the Clear being able to scan out his own recent engrams. I was involved in a massive accident which landed me in hospital for a week. I had lots of pain and was on heavy drugs to keep the pain at bay. At one point in my hospital stay, I was convinced that I was not going to survive the night and asked for a double dose of Pethanol to knock me unconscious, yet to my suprise, I awoke in the morning with the living.

This whole incident was never run out with dianetics or any other auditing. There appears to be a case for your statement that a clear can inspect his own engrams and thus reduce them.
 

ThetanExterior

Gold Meritorious Patron
It surprises me that there are people who still believe there is such a thing as "A Clear" even though they have left the CofS and are able to access all of the information about Hubbard and his so-called tech.

It seems to me that being told you are "Clear" is a status symbol to some people and they are unwilling to discard it even in the face of overwhelming evidence that there is no such thing.

I have seen one member of ESMB saying he/she was told twice by the CofS that they were a Natural Clear. In another post this person said they left the CofS when they were told they weren't Clear! To me, that sums it up.
 

I told you I was trouble

Suspended animation
It surprises me that there are people who still believe there is such a thing as "A Clear" even though they have left the CofS and are able to access all of the information about Hubbard and his so-called tech.

It seems to me that being told you are "Clear" is a status symbol to some people and they are unwilling to discard it even in the face of overwhelming evidence that there is no such thing.

I have seen one member of ESMB saying he/she was told twice by the CofS that they were a Natural Clear. In another post this person said they left the CofS when they were told they weren't Clear! To me, that sums it up.




I agree and I believe there are people everywhere (in and out of the cult) who can basically think straight, make decisions on the run, perceive codswallop when they see it, sort issues out easily and communicate clearly ... there are also those who complicate every little thing and tie themselves into mental knots while adding significance to every thought.

The second group never seem to change for the better (even after finally "going clear").

The first group tend to "go clear" ("natural clear" included) a lot quicker than the second group but they don't change much either, they don't need to to qualify as ... "clear".

Funny that.


:biggrin:
 

prosecco

Patron Meritorious
It surprises me that there are people who still believe there is such a thing as "A Clear" even though they have left the CofS and are able to access all of the information about Hubbard and his so-called tech.

It seems to me that being told you are "Clear" is a status symbol to some people and they are unwilling to discard it even in the face of overwhelming evidence that there is no such thing.

I have seen one member of ESMB saying he/she was told twice by the CofS that they were a Natural Clear. In another post this person said they left the CofS when they were told they weren't Clear! To me, that sums it up.

I think you're right about the status thing. Not sure whether it's a scientology thing where status is so ingrained into the psyche or a human nature thing where one has to find out where another is on the food chain. I remember meeting another ex scientologist who asked me immediately where I was on the grade chart. Seemed irrelevant, and have to say I was embarrassed as to how brain washed I was....
 

I told you I was trouble

Suspended animation


What was very telling about scientology's grade chart system was the way someone with the ability to do so could virtually talk themselves through to attestation ... and that applied not just to "clear" and "natural clear" but also to the "OT" levels.

We now know it was all a hoax anyway, there are no clears or OT's so authenticity wasn't an issue, they just went through the pretence of authenticating the various levels.

In actuality four spoken words ("I'm mocking it up" or something very similar) and presumably the correct indicators and needle phenomena were enough to attest to "clear" and it wasn't hard to get through the OT levels either (up to OT3 anyway, I gave up after that).

I'm pretty sure the tek staff genuinely believed in what they were doing, but they were/are probably the most deluded people in scientology and certainly do the most damage.

I was stunned at how easily I was allowed to attest once I decided I was going to do so ... the relief was wonderful though because it meant I could walk out and never return and I did just that.



:yes:

 

Terril park

Sponsor
It surprises me that there are people who still believe there is such a thing as "A Clear" even though they have left the CofS and are able to access all of the information about Hubbard and his so-called tech.

It seems to me that being told you are "Clear" is a status symbol to some people and they are unwilling to discard it even in the face of overwhelming evidence that there is no such thing.

I have seen one member of ESMB saying he/she was told twice by the CofS that they were a Natural Clear. In another post this person said they left the CofS when they were told they weren't Clear! To me, that sums it up.

That was me I expect. They changed there mind and then agreed I was clear after all.
The reason I left was that it became clear to me that all I could look forward to
was a future of wrong actions. They had started giving me LX lists without telling
me what they were running and several days of me saying I wasn't interested
in what I was being run on. They couldn't very well sec check me as I'd just
come of a self assigned FPRD with massive wins which is probably the best action
I've ever done. During this period I was having to miss many sessions because of
persistent F/N or going ext. I went on to do very well on OT 2&3. I did it all my way,
not the CO$ way. :)
 

pineapple

Silver Meritorious Patron
It surprises me that there are people who still believe there is such a thing as "A Clear" even though they have left the CofS and are able to access all of the information about Hubbard and his so-called tech.

It seems to me that being told you are "Clear" is a status symbol to some people and they are unwilling to discard it even in the face of overwhelming evidence that there is no such thing.

I have seen one member of ESMB saying he/she was told twice by the CofS that they were a Natural Clear. In another post this person said they left the CofS when they were told they weren't Clear! To me, that sums it up.

I think we all know by now that clear wasn't what it was cracked up to be. On the other hand, I still think I did attain something at that time. I became significantly clear-er, if not clear as Hubbard defined it. I still think of it as "clear" because that's a convenient term for it.

I know a great deal of scn is bullshit. I wouldn't do it again, and I'd advise anyone interested to stay far away from CoS. On the other hand, what good would it do me to invalidate something positive that I think I got out of it?

If your take on it is different, that's fine. As pointed out earlier in this thread, everyone is not the same and different people experience the same thing differently. I don't want to fight about it. As Panda points out, it's been discussed at length before. Just wanted to put my two cents in.
 

I told you I was trouble

Suspended animation
That was me I expect. They changed there mind and then agreed I was clear after all.
The reason I left was that it became clear to me that all I could look forward to
was a future of wrong actions. They had started giving me LX lists without telling
me what they were running and several days of me saying I wasn't interested
in what I was being run on. They couldn't very well sec check me as I'd just
come of a self assigned FPRD with massive wins which is probably the best action
I've ever done. During this period I was having to miss many sessions because of
persistent F/N or going ext. I went on to do very well on OT 2&3. I did it all my way,
not the CO$ way. :)


Re the bolded above ... didn't it bother you at all that you were calling the shots (doing it all your way) when it was supposed to require hubbards highly trained, standard tehk "terminals" using their amazing expertise and precision CSing to guide you safely through the wall of fire (gasp) and deposit you gently on the other side?

Didn't you feel that something was wrong with the situation if you could just do what you decided was the right action and ignore the "professionals"?

:confused2:


 

Lone Star

Crusader
Withdrawn.

(This is one of them serious threads where everyone's panties are in a wad).
 
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Terril park

Sponsor

Re the bolded above ... didn't it bother you at all that you were calling the shots (doing it all your way) when it was supposed to require hubbards highly trained, standard tehk "terminals" using their amazing expertise and precision CSing to guide you safely through the wall of fire (gasp) and deposit you gently on the other side?

Didn't you feel that something was wrong with the situation if you could just do what you decided was the right action and ignore the "professionals"?

:confused2:



There was something wrong with the situation and thats
why I left. I foresaw that I'd in future be given wrong items,
wrong actions, unwanted sec checks etc. This has been the
general pattern as reported by those who left. For example
2 OT 5s I know have been undeclared clear 5 times. Didn't
make them happy campers.
 

Bill

Gold Meritorious Patron
Chuck has a tendency to minimize and mock any possible positive outcomes of Dianetics or Scientology processes. I can understand this, but I think it doesn't really help, because it doesn't embrace the fact that many of us experienced very positive changes in our perception, awareness, understanding, behavior and affect as a result of having done some (but not all) processes in the Church's arsenal. Thus, it can come across as bigoted, or stupid, since it addresses only lowest-common-denominators of critics of the Church, without understanding why people stayed and pursued the things that were positive. No doubt there were suckers in the Church, but I wasn't, nor were many of the people I knew. We were ignorant, perhaps, of the origins of the subject, and only later, much to our chagrin, did we find out we didn't have to tolerate abuse in the service of our quest for enlightenment. Suckers implies that there was nothing there to be had, though, and this is both untrue, and a disservice to those who know better.
I felt that I had some benefit during my time in Scientology. But it needs to be pointed out that believing one had "gains" while in Scientology does not mean that the "gains" were because of Scientology. There is no evidence or proof.

While some Scientologists believe they "got gains" it is significant to note that, often, their specific "gains" are not the same, one person to the next, nor are they able to be attributed to the same process(es). That is, there is no specific "gain" attributed to a specific process. Scientifically, this is important.

It is a well known phenomena that if a person expects to "get gains" from something, it is likely they will - but you will see this exact thing happen: No one person's "gains" will necessarily match with another's and cannot be traced to a specific process, action, technique. It is belief.

I have long believed that there is nothing wrong with the placebo effect. Improvement is improvement, no matter how it comes about. But I don't think people should be promoting "Scientology Works!" without actual, scientific evidence that precludes any placebo effect.
 

Enthetan

Master of Disaster
Yes, I audited at least 6 sessions a day, every day, except when I was at Flag or on a persistent FN that wouldn't quit.

I didn't say a Conditions trip lasted 3 months I said "waste 12 weeks (or more) a year". That was in reference to the 6 month checks ie 2 a year at around 6 weeks a pop.

Flag routinely promised that you'd be in and out in 2 weeks on 6MC but that was never the case for anyone I knew.

They often assigned Treason (betrayal after trust) for this sort of stuff. How hard is it to just do the Conditions? It's a helluvalot less arduous than paying the freight on Flag's "license to survive".

I'm guessing they decided that you were somebody who was not willing to put up with bullshit, and that if they pushed, they might find you walking out entirely.

A lot of "Ethics" is conditional to how much they think you will grovel in response, versus the estimated probability that you'll just beat the crap out of the Ethics person and walk out.
 
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