Question on Natural Clear

TheOriginalBigBlue

Gold Meritorious Patron
I felt that I had some benefit during my time in Scientology. But it needs to be pointed out that believing one had "gains" while in Scientology does not mean that the "gains" were because of Scientology. There is no evidence or proof.

While some Scientologists believe they "got gains" it is significant to note that, often, their specific "gains" are not the same, one person to the next, nor are they able to be attributed to the same process(es). That is, there is no specific "gain" attributed to a specific process. Scientifically, this is important.

It is a well known phenomena that if a person expects to "get gains" from something, it is likely they will - but you will see this exact thing happen: No one person's "gains" will necessarily match with another's and cannot be traced to a specific process, action, technique. It is belief.

I have long believed that there is nothing wrong with the placebo effect. Improvement is improvement, no matter how it comes about. But I don't think people should be promoting "Scientology Works!" without actual, scientific evidence that precludes any placebo effect.

Scientology "Gains" did not happen in a neutral environment either. Everything was oriented towards validating gains from the Scientology experience and stigmatizing no gains or anything not attributable to Scientology. It was very politicized and marketing based. All the cheering over completions, fancy certs, clear bracelets, bridge levels, ego inflating reg cycles, etc. were inherently status oriented and competitive and in any competitive environment there are winners and losers so if you didn't get the gain then simply by inference you were a loser. If you question gains after the fact then you mentally must give up everything else invested in those gains including loyalties, convictions, emotions. There was also a very real and serious consequence to not having gains. It could result in time consuming, expensive and disruptive corrective actions and the system was designed to deflect responsibility for no gains away from the organization, LRH and the tech and onto someone or something else. The natural response is to not be that someone or something else and to dismiss personal reservations about gains.

And what about the net net gain? If you have a gain in Scientology at the greater expense of family relationships, friendships, financial stability, health, happiness - was it really a "gain" or a mitigated loss?
 

Terril park

Sponsor
Scientology "Gains" did not happen in a neutral environment either. Everything was oriented towards validating gains from the Scientology experience and stigmatizing no gains or anything not attributable to Scientology. It was very politicized and marketing based. All the cheering over completions, fancy certs, clear bracelets, bridge levels, ego inflating reg cycles, etc. were inherently status oriented and competitive and in any competitive environment there are winners and losers so if you didn't get the gain then simply by inference you were a loser. ....

You may well have much truth in the above.

It is not the whole truth.

When I did my FPRD I wasn't inclined to write success stories.
I was though missing maybe 25-30% of sessions because of
persistent F/N or going ext. The auditor, the org C/S, asked if
I was suppressing successes or wins. I said probably. I then wrote a success story or win before all sessions and could then get into
session.

Totally unconnected with status, marketing or any politics.

Just what I needed to do to get in session.

YMMV.
 

I told you I was trouble

Suspended animation
There was something wrong with the situation and thats
why I left. I foresaw that I'd in future be given wrong items,
wrong actions, unwanted sec checks etc. This has been the
general pattern as reported by those who left. For example
2 OT 5s I know have been undeclared clear 5 times. Didn't
make them happy campers.


I know you left (and became a member of the freezone) ... I just don't understand why you bothered. You are apparently doing what you like anyway ("case" wise) whether in the cofs or the freezone, so what is it really all about?

It doesn't sound as if anyone ever knew what they were doing (though they may have thought they did at the time) so why not just accept that and move on? Why continue to try and add credibility to a chaotic, personality based "technology" by continuing to talk it up?

Perhaps you are one of the worlds cheerful souls with the ability to bounce back and smile widely despite being treated badly? I have similar traits myself (I'm not knocking it, lol) but it has nothing to do with any tek. Knowing you are manipulating the tek you choose to use must surely tell you something about it's true value (or lack of)?

In the cofs people who "bounce back" fast are "uptone" and "produce results" are considered "OT" ... they make things go right (Lol) but so do people in the real world.

Personality is what makes an oatee in scientology, it has nothing at all to do with the tek and I suppose that's why hubbard made it clear that he expects all staff to be oatee (from the day they join staff) ... regardless of whether they have ever even held the soup cans.

It's all just meaningless nonsense isn't it?


:)


 

Hypatia

Pagan

I know you left (and became a member of the freezone) ... I just don't understand why you bothered. You are apparently doing what you like anyway ("case" wise) whether in the cofs or the freezone, so what is it really all about?



Why would someone leave da cherch. Let me think. Thinking...thinking...

by golly, I'm stumped.
 

Jump

Operating teatime
Why would someone leave da cherch. Let me think. Thinking...thinking...

by golly, I'm stumped.

I think the question was rather - why after leaving the Co$ bother joining the equally deluded even though arguably less abusive freezone.
 

Helena Handbasket

Gold Meritorious Patron
When I studied the super-lit bulletin, it took me a long time to get it. What is this thing called conceptual thinking?

Then I understood. It was simply the way I thought all the time. I only erred in trying to conceive of it as "something else".

I wanted to attest to Natural Super-Lit but they wouldn't let me.

Helena
 

Panda Termint

Cabal Of One
or a little pointing in the direction of those who spoken out. But, that's a bit of a barrier since those who spoken out are squirrels SP's, or critics.
I don't think time or re-education are the only factors, of course.

Sometimes people tend to continue to believe in things they've seen or experienced for themselves. There's really no point in attempting to "make nothing of", argue about or shake these things, IMO.

Belief is a very powerful thing and
"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,
Than are dreamt of in your philosophy".


Just as an aside, have you ever known someone who believed that they'd seen a UFO? I have.

That's the sort of Unshakable Belief I'm talking about. :)
 

Gizmo

Rabble Rouser
I remember the "I Want to Go Clear Club." I didn't until you mentioned it. It turned out to be more of a Mickey Mouse Club than we knew at the time, didn't it?

After "Dianetic Clear" there wasn't much point to it. Almost anybody could walk in the door and say they were clear. It was more of an "I Already Went Clear" club.

Not only was it all a farce, those of us delivering that so called CCRD which was the fastest changing RD in history - it went from a sort of half assed formal inquiry to a very laid back wait for the PC to originate - and every where in between !

Got to where an auditor was risking ALL of his /her certs doing one of the damn things !

Odd part, for a really good auditor who knew what was needed all that would have been necessary was a CS, loosely worded to 2WC ( something of interest ) to ep.

Let the auditor talk to the PC & guided 'em to what is wanted to discuss & let 'em discuss it !- isn't what any good therapist does ?
 

Gizmo

Rabble Rouser
You may well have much truth in the above.

It is not the whole truth.

When I did my FPRD I wasn't inclined to write success stories.
I was though missing maybe 25-30% of sessions because of
persistent F/N or going ext. The auditor, the org C/S, asked if
I was suppressing successes or wins. I said probably. I then wrote a success story or win before all sessions and could then get into
session.

Totally unconnected with status, marketing or any politics.

Just what I needed to do to get in session.

YMMV.

Ah, wins, gains & BIG blow outs with dial wide FNs that go into floating TA ?

I just had one of those Saturday night/ I was sucking on my yellow pot laced sucker & BAM ! Kaleidoscope of psychedelic colors ! Didn't even know what planet I was on ( or if there was a planet to be on ! )

Cost me about 5 bucks, Terril, how much did your FPRD to get you there cost ?
 

Gizmo

Rabble Rouser
Ah. the " I Want To Go Clear " club.

Here is all I remember about it : When CC was on La Brea ( in LA ) there was a hooker that worked that corner & wore one of those T shirts.

I head her offered 26 bucks for it & she turned it down, She wouldn't leave it was 'her' corner. I think her pimp showed up & raided hell with the hecklers.

It was a hoot. No idea how it ended but I saw her out there - mid day - over a dozen times.

There was humor even back then.
 

George Layton

Silver Meritorious Patron
I don't think time or re-education are the only factors, of course.

Sometimes people tend to continue to believe in things they've seen or experienced for themselves. There's really no point in attempting to "make nothing of", argue about or shake these things, IMO.

Belief is a very powerful thing and
"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,
Than are dreamt of in your philosophy".


Just as an aside, have you ever known someone who believed that they'd seen a UFO? I have.

That's the sort of Unshakable Belief I'm talking about. :)

People continue to believe in things they've seen or experienced for themselves, but do they realize that those experiences from heaven or from earth aren't always valid in both heaven and earth?
 

Gib

Crusader
I don't think time or re-education are the only factors, of course.

Sometimes people tend to continue to believe in things they've seen or experienced for themselves. There's really no point in attempting to "make nothing of", argue about or shake these things, IMO.

Belief is a very powerful thing and
"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,
Than are dreamt of in your philosophy".


Just as an aside, have you ever known someone who believed that they'd seen a UFO? I have.

That's the sort of Unshakable Belief I'm talking about. :)

yes, I know that, it's tricky, one on one it's hard. While I have shown Hubbard used Rhetoric to persuade, I have never done that one on one, that is use rhetoric one on one to persuade since I have no status. I guess I'm saying something like "hey, look at this, and what do you think?" And then I don't try to persuade but let the person look it over, let it stew.

Since I am not OT 1-8 level person, no scientologist of that level is going to listen to me a non-clear, I have no status (Ethos) in their minds. But I can point to those who have had status (Ethos) of their level w/i scientology and now are speaking out, thats using Ethos. Since you did the whole bridge and now are out, your once status (Ethos) in scientology gives folks questions in their minds, you know like why is he speaking out when he did it all, and they are willing to listen to you since you once had status (Ethos).

This is exactly why the Debbie Cook email had such a great effect, she had status , she had Ethos. And Hubbard knew this, if people spoke out, and his solution is Character Assassination or Fair Game. Make those whistle blowers into the evil SP's/PTS's to keep the "the crowd" as a crowd.
 
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