Question on Natural Clear

Gib

Crusader
When I studied the super-lit bulletin, it took me a long time to get it. What is this thing called conceptual thinking?

Then I understood. It was simply the way I thought all the time. I only erred in trying to conceive of it as "something else".

I wanted to attest to Natural Super-Lit but they wouldn't let me.

Helena

well, I'll give you an example.

When one says the word Rhethoric, what is the conceptual thinking?

Here's my conceptual thinking, it's a whole package of thoughts, many thoughts.

If one says the word Rhetoric, one has to immediately think with the 3 means of persuasion, namely ethos, pathos and logos. And the 5 canons, and the logical fallacies.

It's quite a package of thoughts to think with.

How come Hubbard didn't teach us this in his so called Academy, as in Div 4 of every Class 4/5 org on the planet, or even St Hill? When yet Hubbard learned Rhetoric thru his Dean Wilbur and said hisself he would use it in a the future?

http://www.artofmanliness.com/2010/11/14/classical-rhetoric-101-an-introduction/

Hey, mankinds greatest friend is Mr Rhetoric (Ron) hisself, so is scientology and dianetics. :roflmao::roflmao::roflmao:

No clears, no OT's. Just Rhethoric and the whole package of so called conceptual understanding. LOL
 
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OutToe83

Patron with Honors
Scientology "Gains" did not happen in a neutral environment either. Everything was oriented towards validating gains from the Scientology experience and stigmatizing no gains or anything not attributable to Scientology. It was very politicized and marketing based. All the cheering over completions, fancy certs, clear bracelets, bridge levels, ego inflating reg cycles, etc. were inherently status oriented and competitive and in any competitive environment there are winners and losers so if you didn't get the gain then simply by inference you were a loser. If you question gains after the fact then you mentally must give up everything else invested in those gains including loyalties, convictions, emotions. There was also a very real and serious consequence to not having gains. It could result in time consuming, expensive and disruptive corrective actions and the system was designed to deflect responsibility for no gains away from the organization, LRH and the tech and onto someone or something else. The natural response is to not be that someone or something else and to dismiss personal reservations about gains.

And what about the net net gain? If you have a gain in Scientology at the greater expense of family relationships, friendships, financial stability, health, happiness - was it really a "gain" or a mitigated loss?

This thought in bold above ^^ brought up for me a question I first originated when I was quite young. My mother happened to be a Jehovah's Witless (no, that's not a typo), but the question applies to a much larger community: Not only all Christendom or all Abrahamic offshoots, but basically all religions that believe there is eternal paradise at the end of their life's struggle, and that everybody else who doesn't follow The One True Path to Heaven is doomed to eternal damnation in one form or another--in the case of the Witless, I believe it's eternal burning in Hell.

So my question was, "How can my mom (or anybody with a good heart) possibly be happy every day of eternity, knowing on each day that so many of her loved ones (in my mom's case, I and several other siblings, along with dad and almost every other member of our family) are suffering horribly in the flaming pits of Hell, every single instant of every day, through all of eternity...? And some of her relatives committed only the sin of choosing the wrong church. (That's right, only the JW's will get in, and not even all of those.)

So she will have no aches or pains of old age, no hunger, no discomfort, will want for nothing...but she'll know what's happening to all of us. How, I asked myself, could she possibly be happy in those circumstances? Especially given that only loving and compassionate people will be selected for Heaven!

I could think of only one explanation: I renamed her church (and any church with similar beliefs), "The Church of the Devine Lobotomy."

Now this next is OT (Off-Topic, not OatTee), but this seems to be the time to mention it. I know a lot of us have friends who wonder how we could ever have fallen for the insane beliefs of the Cof$---yet, populations everywhere hold huge percentages of people who believe stuff as crazy as the Devine Lobotomy Syndrome: The belief that the most loving, caring, compassionate members of the human species can be perfectly happy throughout every moment of eternity, knowing that most of their most cherished family, friends, neighbors, countrymen and species are suffering the worst torture imaginable through every moment of eternity.

I plan to say more about this in a separate thread, but we Exes didn't swallow any bigger or more blatant BS than many communities that outnumbered the Co$ in its heyday. And the Still-ins aren't any more entrenched than those communities. It's just that those belief systems have been around for long enough that people are used to them and don't really question them much.

Sorry for the OT ramble. Done for now.
 

Panda Termint

Cabal Of One


If I see the word "rhetoric" one more time I'm going throw myself off the closest cliff.

I am.

I really, really am.

:biggrin:
In my observation, ex-scientologists may become just as prone to that "one-size-fits-all" mindset as any scientologist ever was. So many Exes seem to have adopted a favorite solution to the problem of "How to rationalise Hubbard/scientology".

"It's all hypnotism, it's all rhetoric, it's all brainwashing, it's all... whatever."

It's kinda cute in a somewhat annoying way! :)
 

pineapple

Silver Meritorious Patron
This thought in bold above ^^ brought up for me a question I first originated when I was quite young. My mother happened to be a Jehovah's Witless (no, that's not a typo), but the question applies to a much larger community: Not only all Christendom or all Abrahamic offshoots, but basically all religions that believe there is eternal paradise at the end of their life's struggle, and that everybody else who doesn't follow The One True Path to Heaven is doomed to eternal damnation in one form or another--in the case of the Witless, I believe it's eternal burning in Hell.

So my question was, "How can my mom (or anybody with a good heart) possibly be happy every day of eternity, knowing on each day that so many of her loved ones (in my mom's case, I and several other siblings, along with dad and almost every other member of our family) are suffering horribly in the flaming pits of Hell, every single instant of every day, through all of eternity...? And some of her relatives committed only the sin of choosing the wrong church. (That's right, only the JW's will get in, and not even all of those.)

This is off-topic: I don't know much about the Witnesses, but as I understand it, they don't believe in hell as a place of eternal burning and suffering as most other Christians do. They believe that when you're dead, you're asleep. Eventually the righteous will survive but the souls of evildoers will simply be destroyed, will cease to exist. No eternal suffering.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jehovah's_Witnesses_beliefs

I remembered this because it impressed me as the only good thing in their beliefs. I'm not very knowledgeable about the JW's, so if someone else knows better, please correct me.
 

The_Fixer

Class Clown
This is off-topic: I don't know much about the Witnesses, but as I understand it, they don't believe in hell as a place of eternal burning and suffering as most other Christians do. They believe that when you're dead, you're asleep. Eventually the righteous will survive but the souls of evildoers will simply be destroyed, will cease to exist. No eternal suffering.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jehovah's_Witnesses_beliefs

I remembered this because it impressed me as the only good thing in their beliefs. I'm not very knowledgeable about the JW's, so if someone else knows better, please correct me.

Not too sure about the "Witlesses", but in the case of the Seventh Day Adventist beliefs, (my mum and grandad were in it) you lay asleep in your grave until the Second Coming of Christ.

Didn't the Witnesses claim:

Only 144000 will ever enter the kingdom of heaven? Must be some competition within that church, hey?
You won't be one of that number if you don't witness a "conversion" to your faith?

Only real fact I can think of as true, is you're a dick if you join them.
 

JustSheila

Crusader

I was C/Sed to start New OT 6, but I thought if I finished New OT 5 and was such a mess, I had no business going on to my next level. (They probably thought I'd be gushing over the opportunity to go on to, like wow, New OT 6, but I was underwhelmed.) I insisted on getting some sort of cleanup instead. (They gave me FPRD, which I don't consider to be auditing. This was a major part of my decision to walk out forever.)

I'm confused. Didn't you post earlier that you didn't do your OT levels at Flag? Weren't these actions done in the FZ at Ron's org with Captain Bill's uber high ultra OT levels?
 

Gib

Crusader


If I see the word "rhetoric" one more time I'm going throw myself off the closest cliff.

I am.

I really, really am.

:biggrin:

Sorry Trouble, it's my new religion, I'm trying, I really am. Ahhh, but good news, I think I have a new mantra, it's a reverse psychology thingie, thanks to todays comment by Espiando over at the Mike Rinder blog

http://www.mikerindersblog.org/valley-otc-minutes-3/

"They need to pass the hat to meet meeting expenses and pay for their webserver? Why don’t they just stand at an exit of the 405 with a sign saying “Body Thetans to eliminate! Ron bless you!”? Actually, I’d do that just for the lulz"

I'm going to get a big sign made that says:
Body Thetans to Eliminate!
Ron Bless you!

and then stand in front of the Valley Org. Well, it's off to the copy and hat store. I want to start this Thursday, I'll report back next Thursday at 2pm with my stats. I bet I'll make higher GI than the org.
 

Gizmo

Rabble Rouser
In my observation, ex-scientologists may become just as prone to that "one-size-fits-all" mindset as any scientologist ever was. So many Exes seem to have adopted a favorite solution to the problem of "How to rationalise Hubbard/scientology".

"It's all hypnotism, it's all rhetoric, it's all brainwashing, it's all... whatever."

It's kinda cute in a somewhat annoying way! :)

Yes, in the same way as some X's who proudly run around waving some tlittle dip shit piece of Doctor Hubbards tech as " workable ".

Talk about an annoying way ! Whew !
 

TheOriginalBigBlue

Gold Meritorious Patron
This thought in bold above ^^ brought up for me a question I first originated when I was quite young. My mother happened to be a Jehovah's Witless (no, that's not a typo), but the question applies to a much larger community: Not only all Christendom or all Abrahamic offshoots, but basically all religions that believe there is eternal paradise at the end of their life's struggle, and that everybody else who doesn't follow The One True Path to Heaven is doomed to eternal damnation in one form or another--in the case of the Witless, I believe it's eternal burning in Hell.

So my question was, "How can my mom (or anybody with a good heart) possibly be happy every day of eternity, knowing on each day that so many of her loved ones (in my mom's case, I and several other siblings, along with dad and almost every other member of our family) are suffering horribly in the flaming pits of Hell, every single instant of every day, through all of eternity...? And some of her relatives committed only the sin of choosing the wrong church. (That's right, only the JW's will get in, and not even all of those.)

So she will have no aches or pains of old age, no hunger, no discomfort, will want for nothing...but she'll know what's happening to all of us. How, I asked myself, could she possibly be happy in those circumstances? Especially given that only loving and compassionate people will be selected for Heaven!

I could think of only one explanation: I renamed her church (and any church with similar beliefs), "The Church of the Devine Lobotomy."

Now this next is OT (Off-Topic, not OatTee), but this seems to be the time to mention it. I know a lot of us have friends who wonder how we could ever have fallen for the insane beliefs of the Cof$---yet, populations everywhere hold huge percentages of people who believe stuff as crazy as the Devine Lobotomy Syndrome: The belief that the most loving, caring, compassionate members of the human species can be perfectly happy throughout every moment of eternity, knowing that most of their most cherished family, friends, neighbors, countrymen and species are suffering the worst torture imaginable through every moment of eternity.

I plan to say more about this in a separate thread, but we Exes didn't swallow any bigger or more blatant BS than many communities that outnumbered the Co$ in its heyday. And the Still-ins aren't any more entrenched than those communities. It's just that those belief systems have been around for long enough that people are used to them and don't really question them much.

Sorry for the OT ramble. Done for now.

Don't forget the political motivation. If a church gets a person to think this way then they are highly motivated to save all those other people by getting them to convert.

The Mormon's addressed this problem by permitting you to baptize your deceased ancestors by proxy.
 

OutToe83

Patron with Honors
Sorry Trouble, it's my new religion, I'm trying, I really am. Ahhh, but good news, I think I have a new mantra, it's a reverse psychology thingie, thanks to todays comment by Espiando over at the Mike Rinder blog

http://www.mikerindersblog.org/valley-otc-minutes-3/

"They need to pass the hat to meet meeting expenses and pay for their webserver? Why don’t they just stand at an exit of the 405 with a sign saying “Body Thetans to eliminate! Ron bless you!”? Actually, I’d do that just for the lulz"

I'm going to get a big sign made that says:
Body Thetans to Eliminate!
Ron Bless you!



and then stand in front of the Valley Org. Well, it's off to the copy and hat store. I want to start this Thursday, I'll report back next Thursday at 2pm with my stats. I bet I'll make higher GI than the org.


Am I the only one concerned with Body Thetans being made homeless?
Even though they've been super-implanted, through no fault of their own, they're still people and are entitled to dignity and respect. IMHO, they should be treated with the same compassion we afford other refugees.

Maybe I'll make my own sign to carry in front of FCDC next time we have a demonstration.

Body Thetans Have Rights Too!
No Evictions Without Due Legal Process!
 

OutToe83

Patron with Honors
This is off-topic: I don't know much about the Witnesses, but as I understand it, they don't believe in hell as a place of eternal burning and suffering as most other Christians do. They believe that when you're dead, you're asleep. Eventually the righteous will survive but the souls of evildoers will simply be destroyed, will cease to exist. No eternal suffering.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jehovah's_Witnesses_beliefs

I remembered this because it impressed me as the only good thing in their beliefs. I'm not very knowledgeable about the JW's, so if someone else knows better, please correct me.

My bad, it was late and I didn't bother researching this before posting. Full disclosure, my mom converted from the One True Faith (Church of God, one of the "Southern Holiness" denominations; aka "Holy Rollers") to the other One True Faith (JWs) after I left home. So I didn't get exposed (forced) to JW teachings in my upbringing.

Sorry for the OT (Off Topic)--It started as a tie-in to BB's reference to seeking happiness/gains at the expense of losing family and friends. Kind of a similar conflict there, but I didn't tie it very well. But you're right, it is way OT from questions on Natural Clear. My apologies.
 

Free Being Me

Crusader
In my observation, ex-scientologists may become just as prone to that "one-size-fits-all" mindset as any scientologist ever was. So many Exes seem to have adopted a favorite solution to the problem of "How to rationalise Hubbard/scientology".

"It's all hypnotism, it's all rhetoric, it's all brainwashing, it's all... whatever."

It's kinda cute in a somewhat annoying way! :)
“Whenever you are about to find fault with someone, ask yourself the following question: What fault of mine most nearly resembles the one I am about to criticize?”
- Marcus Aurelius, Meditations

Ex's do the best they can dealing with the aftermath of having been in a cult and do marvelously exposing $cientology for what it is, a criminal mafia organization hiding behind religious cloaking.
 

Lone Star

Crusader
Am I the only one concerned with Body Thetans being made homeless?
Even though they've been super-implanted, through no fault of their own, they're still people and are entitled to dignity and respect. IMHO, they should be treated with the same compassion we afford other refugees.

Maybe I'll make my own sign to carry in front of FCDC next time we have a demonstration.

Body Thetans Have Rights Too!
No Evictions Without Due Legal Process!

A Body Thetan refugee crisis of historical proportion perhaps? :unsure:

Hopefully Angela Merkel and Germany will take them in.
 

pineapple

Silver Meritorious Patron
Not too sure about the "Witlesses", but in the case of the Seventh Day Adventist beliefs, (my mum and grandad were in it) you lay asleep in your grave until the Second Coming of Christ.

Didn't the Witnesses claim:

Only 144000 will ever enter the kingdom of heaven? Must be some competition within that church, hey?
You won't be one of that number if you don't witness a "conversion" to your faith?

Only real fact I can think of as true, is you're a dick if you join them.

Eastern Orthodox Christians also believe you sleep until the Second Coming and the General Judgement, unlike Roman Catholics who believe there's a "Particular Judgement" immediately after death. RC's once considered adopting the Orthodox theory (11th century or so?), but decided against it because they thought people wouldn't be motivated enough to follow church teachings if they thought they wouldn't be judged immediately.

In the JW scheme only 144,000 go to heaven, but other righteous will live in a paradise on earth; so it's still pretty good even if you're not one of the 144,000. See the wikipedia article if you're interested.

My bad, it was late and I didn't bother researching this before posting. Full disclosure, my mom converted from the One True Faith (Church of God, one of the "Southern Holiness" denominations; aka "Holy Rollers") to the other One True Faith (JWs) after I left home. So I didn't get exposed (forced) to JW teachings in my upbringing.

Sorry for the OT (Off Topic)--It started as a tie-in to BB's reference to seeking happiness/gains at the expense of losing family and friends. Kind of a similar conflict there, but I didn't tie it very well. But you're right, it is way OT from questions on Natural Clear. My apologies.

I wasn't accusing you of being off-topic; I meant that my post was off-topic. I don't think a little off-topic is so bad.
 

OutToe83

Patron with Honors
A Body Thetan refugee crisis of historical proportion perhaps? :unsure:

Hopefully Angela Merkel and Germany will take them in.

Not unless the OTs were actually blowing the BTs off at the rate they continually claim--which they AREN'T, or the Cherch would be doing great. From what I hear, Orgs in Germany are doing worse than the rest of the world, so prolly not as many BTs looking for refuge there.'

This raises a question: When an OT's cert(s) is/are cancelled, do the BTs get to stick back on? :omg:
 

Panda Termint

Cabal Of One
“Whenever you are about to find fault with someone, ask yourself the following question: What fault of mine most nearly resembles the one I am about to criticize?”
- Marcus Aurelius, Meditations

Ex's do the best they can dealing with the aftermath of having been in a cult and do marvelously exposing $cientology for what it is, a criminal mafia organization hiding behind religious cloaking.
Sure. No arguments here.

My comment was just in response to ITYIWT's little joke preceding it. It's not that serious. :)

But, just for the record, you didn't actually address the thing I said, you just used Rhetoric...

oops, there goes ITYIWT...

Sorry about that, Chief!
 
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Jump

Operating teatime
Sure. No arguments here.

My comment was just in response to ITYIWT's little joke preceding it. It's not that serious. :)

But, just for the record, you didn't actually address the thing I said, you just used Rhetoric...

oops, there goes ITYIWT...

Sorry about that, Chief!

Trouble is OK.

Yeah, missed it by THAT much!
 

Panda Termint

Cabal Of One
I'm confused. Didn't you post earlier that you didn't do your OT levels at Flag? Weren't these actions done in the FZ at Ron's org with Captain Bill's uber high ultra OT levels?

Seeing as how Helena hasn't addressed this, I'll tell you my understanding of it;

Helena did up to and including OT5 in the CofS, left the CofS and continued on the fabled Bridge in Ron's Org up to RO's "Excalibur" (or thereabouts). She'll probably correct this (if it's incorrect) and/or fill in the blanks sooner or later. :)
 

Free Being Me

Crusader
In my observation, ex-scientologists may become just as prone to that "one-size-fits-all" mindset as any scientologist ever was. So many Exes seem to have adopted a favorite solution to the problem of "How to rationalise Hubbard/scientology".

"It's all hypnotism, it's all rhetoric, it's all brainwashing, it's all... whatever."

It's kinda cute in a somewhat annoying way! :)

“Whenever you are about to find fault with someone, ask yourself the following question: What fault of mine most nearly resembles the one I am about to criticize?”
- Marcus Aurelius, Meditations

Ex's do the best they can dealing with the aftermath of having been in a cult and do marvelously exposing $cientology for what it is, a criminal mafia organization hiding behind religious cloaking.

Sure. No arguments here. >snip<

Naturally.
 
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