Question on Natural Clear

Gib

Crusader

Thanks for the link. :thumbsup:

Interesting in that Nibs says don't do the OT levels,

One thing missing from Nibs write-up is some missing information. Hey, hubbard said the the hardest outpoint to spot is the missing. Nibs did not know of hubbards knowledge of rhetoric from his dean wilbur. LOL

and Nibs said his auditors didn't know of his study of Magick. LOL Witholds as Nibs says, the missing data, LOL
 

Hatshepsut

Crusader
Thanks for the link. :thumbsup:

Interesting in that Nibs says don't do the OT levels,

One thing missing from Nibs write-up is some missing information. Hey, hubbard said the the hardest outpoint to spot is the missing. Nibs did not know of hubbards knowledge of rhetoric from his dean wilbur. LOL

and Nibs said his auditors didn't know of his study of Magick. LOL Witholds as Nibs says, the missing data, LOL

Maybe I agree with Nibs. The original idea was to mess with any such spiritual mechanics while distinctly separate from the body. Some other practices like those of Egypt and Tibet expected you to have actually died before applying the lessons given in your primer. (confidential materials)
 
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Panda Termint

Cabal Of One
Thank you FBM. :thumbsup:

Don't worry about Panda and me, others, it's all good. ..

I'm happy to read that, mate. I think you know that I like you very much. :)

Critics disagree with each other sometimes, it's no big deal unless someone makes it into a big deal.

I've disagreed with almost everyone here on ESMB at one time or another so you're not Robinson Crusoe.

The irony of someone criticising a fellow critic here on ESMB for the crime of (allegedly) "criticising critics" gets lost in the mix sometimes.

If you knew how much several of my closest Ex friends and I disagree with each other sometimes, you'd undoubtedly be very surprised to know how easily we all manage to somehow rise above it and support each other whenever push comes to shove. We're not robotically following some Party Line, we have individual opinions.

If FBM had simply clicked "Disagree" instead of launching into a personal attack, there'd only be 2 posts about it on this thread, ITYIWT's and mine. Move over Ms Streisand. :)
 

TheOriginalBigBlue

Gold Meritorious Patron
I'm happy to read that, mate. I think you know that I like you very much. :)

Critics disagree with each other sometimes, it's no big deal unless someone makes it into a big deal.

I've disagreed with almost everyone here on ESMB at one time or another so you're not Robinson Crusoe.

The irony of someone criticising a fellow critic here on ESMB for the crime of (allegedly) "criticising critics" gets lost in the mix sometimes.

If you knew how much several of my closest Ex friends and I disagree with each other sometimes, you'd undoubtedly be very surprised to know how easily we all manage to somehow rise above it and support each other whenever push comes to shove. We're not robotically following some Party Line, we have individual opinions.

If FBM had simply clicked "Disagree" instead of launching into a personal attack, there'd only be 2 posts about it on this thread, ITYIWT's and mine. Move over Ms Streisand. :)

Lest we forget, this is a prison planet and the intergalactic middle class conservatives rounded up all the non-conformists and overly creative people and all the criminals and dumped them here on the forgotten rim of the Milky Way. Then, LRH gathered up the most non-conforming and overly creative and most difficult of those, and then the most non-conforming and difficult to control of those became ESMB.

So basically - we're all just a bunch of real pissants.
 

I told you I was trouble

Suspended animation
Thank you FBM. :thumbsup:

Don't worry about Panda and me, others, it's all good. Although you are right in that I felt stifled, and truely wanted to blow. I am just trying to communicate my discoveries about the source and explain it.

Isn't it annoying, that the COS keeps repeating their message of how the COS is expanding in the media, make it stop, I say to myself, as I keep getting mail from the COS since I'm underground.

Thank YOU BIG BLUE, I wish I could write like you.

A rhetoric emotional appeal for a good cause as opposed to hubbards emotional appeal of tone 4 and being a scientologist, the two are worlds apart:

And here is an analysis of the commercial. The next logical rhetorical question should be, although the commercial excites emotions, should be, is this organization on the up and up, that reguires due diligence to see and examine how the money donated is used. As opposed to our COS, those monies donated to IAS, Naconon, etc. How are they used?

Re the bolded line above ... are you serious?

One of us may be on the wrong board ... and maybe I'll just have to accept that it's me.

Please feel free to mention rhetoric every single time you post and I'll try and behave myself in future.


:melodramatic:

Have fun.


 

Hatshepsut

Crusader
Lest we forget, this is a prison planet and the intergalactic middle class conservatives rounded up all the non-conformists and overly creative people and all the criminals and dumped them here on the forgotten rim of the Milky Way. Then, LRH gathered up the most non-conforming and overly creative and most difficult of those, and then the most non-conforming and difficult to control of those became ESMB.

So basically - we're all just a bunch of real pissants.

http://www.theoccidentalobserver.net/2012/05/the-southern-point-rhetorically-speaking-part-2/

:biggrin:

The rhetorician who practices "amplification" is not thereby misleading his audience, because we are all men of limited capacity and sensitivity and imagination. We all need to have things pointed out to us, things stressed in our interest. The very task of the rhetorician is to determine what feature of a question is most exigent and to use the power of language to make it appear so.

–Richard Weaver, Language is Sermonic, pp. 219–220
 

JustSheila

Crusader
Thank you FBM. :thumbsup:

I am just trying to communicate my discoveries about the source and explain it.

Here's a suggestion, Gib.

Firstly, rhetoric is far too broad of a term. There are so many different fascinating avenues to explore within it, though, that would be interesting to many here, that why turn people off to the subject by overuse of that one term?

For example, Mockingbird found an area within rhetoric that I found fascinating - the Echo Chamber.

http://www.forum.exscn.net/showthread.php?40501-Exiting-the-Echo-Chamber

I like a lot of Mockinbird's ideas. He often brings new concepts to the board and it's to his disadvantage that his writing isn't tighter, because the subjects themselves are very good.

I'd personally be very interested in some concise, tight writing about different, specific areas of brainwashing/rhetoric, especially new things I never knew before. The Echo Chamber was a new concept to me.

Just a suggestion.
 

Gib

Crusader
Here's a suggestion, Gib.

Firstly, rhetoric is far too broad of a term. There are so many different fascinating avenues to explore within it, though, that would be interesting to many here, that why turn people off to the subject by overuse of that one term?

For example, Mockingbird found an area within rhetoric that I found fascinating - the Echo Chamber.

http://www.forum.exscn.net/showthread.php?40501-Exiting-the-Echo-Chamber

I like a lot of Mockinbird's ideas. He often brings new concepts to the board and it's to his disadvantage that his writing isn't tighter, because the subjects themselves are very good.

I'd personally be very interested in some concise, tight writing about different, specific areas of brainwashing/rhetoric, especially new things I never knew before. The Echo Chamber was a new concept to me.

Just a suggestion.

cool, thanks Sheila. But truth is I need to [STRIKE]blow[/STRIKE] take a break from posting. Not because of ITYIWT or anybody else, I'm just plumb puckered out and need a vacation. I hope that doesn't come across the wrong way. Anyways, onward and upward.
 

JustSheila

Crusader
cool, thanks Sheila. But truth is I need to [STRIKE]blow[/STRIKE] take a break from posting. Not because of ITYIWT or anybody else, I'm just plumb puckered out and need a vacation. I hope that doesn't come across the wrong way. Anyways, onward and upward.

There is definitely life beyond the Internet and forums. :coolwink: Your life comes first. Always.

Enjoy yourself, Gib. Hope to see you back soon. :bighug:
 

Panda Termint

Cabal Of One
cool, thanks Sheila. But truth is I need to [STRIKE]blow[/STRIKE] take a break from posting. Not because of ITYIWT or anybody else, I'm just plumb puckered out and need a vacation. I hope that doesn't come across the wrong way. Anyways, onward and upward.
Now, on that count, you definitely ain't Robinson Crusoe! :)
 

Gib

Crusader
Here's a suggestion, Gib.

Firstly, rhetoric is far too broad of a term. There are so many different fascinating avenues to explore within it, though, that would be interesting to many here, that why turn people off to the subject by overuse of that one term?

For example, Mockingbird found an area within rhetoric that I found fascinating - the Echo Chamber.

http://www.forum.exscn.net/showthread.php?40501-Exiting-the-Echo-Chamber

I like a lot of Mockinbird's ideas. He often brings new concepts to the board and it's to his disadvantage that his writing isn't tighter, because the subjects themselves are very good.

I'd personally be very interested in some concise, tight writing about different, specific areas of brainwashing/rhetoric, especially new things I never knew before. The Echo Chamber was a new concept to me.

Just a suggestion.

My break is over with.

I am not here posting to appease or entertain you nor Trouble. I am here to expose what Hubbard learned and what influenced us to join his cult or culture and provide proof of such.

If you or Trouble find it boring or repetitive or too in depth, then too bad. God invented Netflix if you wish to be entertained.
 

Gizmo

Rabble Rouser
Chuck has a tendency to minimize and mock any possible positive outcomes of Dianetics or Scientology processes. I can understand this, but I think it doesn't really help, because it doesn't embrace the fact that many of us experienced very positive changes in our perception, awareness, understanding, behavior and affect as a result of having done some (but not all) processes in the Church's arsenal. Thus, it can come across as bigoted, or stupid, since it addresses only lowest-common-denominators of critics of the Church, without understanding why people stayed and pursued the things that were positive. No doubt there were suckers in the Church, but I wasn't, nor were many of the people I knew. We were ignorant, perhaps, of the origins of the subject, and only later, much to our chagrin, did we find out we didn't have to tolerate abuse in the service of our quest for enlightenment. Suckers implies that there was nothing there to be had, though, and this is both untrue, and a disservice to those who know better.

My own take on the Natural Clear issues is that it is TRUE that some people never were anything other than serene and competent and sailed through their lives without "held-down sevens". It is ALSO true that Hubbard only recognized this because he saw it as a way to get these people to pay a lot of money fast for the OT Levels. Much like many other phases of Scientology's progression, they sold out the possibility of future gain for the reality of present financial gain or social control. Short-term thinking, coupled with paranoid delusion and narcissism are rarely healthy.

For David Mayo's thoughts on the matter, read his Clear

If scn is so damn good then :

1) How come it doesn't work ?
2) Why do so many people flee from it ?
3) Where is a clear. Show me ONE per the lrh definition.
4) OT ? SHow me just one ?

it is one thing to buy the bullshit for oneself & quite another shameful thing to try to sell it to others !
 

Hypatia

Pagan
If scn is so damn good then :

1) How come it doesn't work ?
2) Why do so many people flee from it ?
3) Where is a clear. Show me ONE per the lrh definition.
4) OT ? SHow me just one ?

it is one thing to buy the bullshit for oneself & quite another shameful thing to try to sell it to others !

A lot of groups have some hoped-for state they are aiming for; enlightenment, etc. The honest ones say it's something to try to attain, not "ok, you will have this someday". And the honest ones don't soak you for all your life savings.

Having a spiritual goal isn't a bad thing. Lying and weaseling about it is.
 

DagwoodGum

Squirreling Dervish
Some Scientologists have to work at being suckers, while others are natural born suckers, if you bring your credit card to your nearest Org, depending on your line of credit and available funds, they will be happy to tell you which one you are.

Exactly.
In my case I think I only FN'd on that item off a what, green form?
I don't remember so I can't be all that clear but I will say that I never read "Dianetics, The..." till I was forced to on my training package, preferring the freedom to... over the freedom from... side of Scientology.
Not having read it till I mostly skimmed through it reluctantly towards the end of my time there spared me the phenomenon associated with getting tricked into mocking it up as one can when one is demo'ing something out in one's mind.
I never mocked it up but still I think it's hilarious and farcical that merely FN'ing on an item off a list is any proof of anything other than my mind might have wandered out of excruciating boredom.
Excruciating boredom was why I lost interest in putting myself at effect from any Elronamatron course supervisor ever again... so I dropped off lines.
I don't know if I was ever officially expelled or not, past a certain point I simply didn't care.:thumbsup:
 

Leon-2

Patron Meritorious
Ant person who thinks he can just pay over some money and get in return a Cadillac-ride to spiritual enlightenment is a sucker for every conman in the street.

There's one born every minute - did anyone ever tell you that?
 

Hatshepsut

Crusader
Ant person who thinks he can just pay over some money and get in return a Cadillac-ride to spiritual enlightenment is a sucker for every conman in the street.

There's one born every minute - did anyone ever tell you that?

People have been paying a high price to obtain release from karma.... forever. I saw this link yesterday. Look at some of the states they were trying to achieve in the mystery schools....from about 600 B.C. to 400 C.E.. Makes one wonder.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iamblichus

http://www.wisdomworld.org/setting/iamblichus.html

The soul, he says, is an immortal entity, unbegotten and imperishable, indivisible and incorporeal. Therefore it could not have come into existence at birth, nor will it perish at death. Furthermore, "being indivisible, being essentially incorporeal, and having nothing in common with the body, it can be affected by nothing, nor has it any concern with change or condition."

He then enters into a lengthy description of the soul, which he says is two-fold, the lower part being concerned with bodily existence, while the higher part is separable from everything corporeal. It is only as the higher part of the soul is awakened that man can bring about the union of the Self with the Universal Self. He describes the faculty in man which makes this union possible.

There is a faculty in man which is immeasurably superior to those which are grafted or engendered in us. By it we can attain to union with superior intelligences, finding ourselves raised above the scenes of this earthly life, and partaking of higher existence and superhuman powers of the inhabitants of the celestial spheres.
What is this faculty? In modern Theosophy it is called Intuition -- a faculty of the soul itself. Dormant in the majority of men, it can be awakened, and will grow in proportion to its use. The use of intuition arouses the spiritual senses. These can penetrate into the very core of matter and see any object as it really is, and not merely as a physical appearance.
Iamblichus describes this faculty in detail, claiming that it releases man from even the bonds of Karma.

By this faculty we find ourselves liberated from the dominion of destiny [Karma], and we become, as it were, the arbiters of our own fate. For when the most excellent parts of us find themselves filled with energy; when our soul is lifted up toward essences higher than science, it can separate itself from conditions which hold it in bondage of every-day life. It exchanges its ordinary existence for another one. It renounces the conventional habits which belong to the external order of things, to give itself up to and mix itself with another order of things which reign in that most elevated order of existence.
 

Miss Ellie

Miss Ellie
I just found this discussion... I too am a "natural clear"... from the way-back-machine.

I was visiting the brother and family in LA and somehow ended up attesting to clear. I could always make the needle float like a butterfly and did that day "fer sure". All the while I was thinking what bull shit... could they not tell I was yanking the chain?!?

Of course after I attested I was hit up to do "more". They were very surprised when I was happy being clear. No money for them, no training goals, no desire to go OT... nope just a happy little girl clear. I even got a clear bracelet I wore for a time.

So.... I guess it was a money making bust.... as far as I remember I did not pay to attest or anything... but it was a long time ago.

I had almost forgotten all about it.

:happydance: :happydance: :happydance:
 

Gib

Crusader
Ant person who thinks he can just pay over some money and get in return a Cadillac-ride to spiritual enlightenment is a sucker for every conman in the street.

There's one born every minute - did anyone ever tell you that?

I wish you would tell that to Bob Duggan, John Travolta, Tom Cruise, Kristi Alley, etc.

What do you think their responses would be?
 

DagwoodGum

Squirreling Dervish
I just found this discussion... I too am a "natural clear"... from the way-back-machine.

I was visiting the brother and family in LA and somehow ended up attesting to clear. I could always make the needle float like a butterfly and did that day "fer sure". All the while I was thinking what bull shit... could they not tell I was yanking the chain?!?

Of course after I attested I was hit up to do "more". They were very surprised when I was happy being clear. No money for them, no training goals, no desire to go OT... nope just a happy little girl clear. I even got a clear bracelet I wore for a time.

So.... I guess it was a money making bust.... as far as I remember I did not pay to attest or anything... but it was a long time ago.

I had almost forgotten all about it.

:happydance: :happydance: :happydance:

I learned the FN at will trick too, makes me wonder how I'd fare on lie detector.
Wasn't it Bent Corydon who wrote that you say "yes" while thinking no and you'll read as though you're telling the truth even if the true answer is "no" as it reads on your thought and not your word?
 
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