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Questions, questions...

An excellent idea. Where I live, high school students can spend their senior year taking college courses in the local community college. The credits are accepted at most 4-year colleges. Also, some students do their first two years at a local community college, and then transfer to a 4-year for the last two years. With community college tuition generally being a fraction of regular college tuition, it's a big money-saver.

Many moons ago...I actually did both of these things, plus took advanced placement testing at College as a freshman which allowed me to "skip" some basic courses. Big time and cost saver...all those efforts combined. :)

*Sweetness thinks. :questions:

Maybe I was a Udarnik too! :biggrin:
 

Udarnik

Gold Meritorious Patron
Many moons ago...I actually did both of these things, plus took advanced placement testing at College as a freshman which allowed me to "skip" some basic courses. Big time and cost saver...all those efforts combined. :)

*Sweetness thinks. :questions:

Maybe I was a Udarnik too! :biggrin:

Yes, you were.

A note on the pronunciation of my nick and Russian transcription. If it were "YOU dar nik", it would be transcribed as "Yudarnik", so the pronunciation is actually "oo DAR nik", accent on the 2nd syllable. So its "an Udarnik", since the first sound is not the consonant Y, but the long "U" vowel sound. Didn't think about it enough to realize that many people would not know that when I did my intro to ESMB, sorry.
 

guanoloco

As-Wased
When the IRS capitulated and gave the Co$ tax exemption as a bona fide religion there was a huge event done. During this event Miscavige talked about the war that was waged and how the files would be purged of all the lies being circulated about Ron and Scientology. One of the circulated lies (whether the incidents were true or not Scientology called them lies) was that Ron mailed snakes to his enemies.

It could've been a mistake, though, and a mix up with this account on Synanon:

grotzley-morantz-synanon.jpg


The reason I say this is because during this event Miscavige made a big deal of how Scientology was accused of using LSD during sessions and having ties with Timothy Leary. That confusion has to do with the original Captain Trips, the Johnny Appleseed of LSD, Al Hubbard. Al Hubbard sounds really, really close to L. Hubbard and the rest is history.

Here's an awesome documentary named Hoffman's Potion that covers the history of Al Hubbard and LSD.

The history of Al and L. Hubbard definitely cross in one Aldous Huxley.

That rattlesnake image is from an Arnie Lerma post.
 

freethinker

Sponsor
That was the 1993 Ias event where Dm anounced the tax exemption. he drolled on for two hours by himself talking about how it was never talked about because there was nothing anyone could do and Blah blah... Then he went into how they, he and marty, just happened to be in the neighborhood of 1111 Pennsylvania Ave (The IRS) and decided to drop in and see Commissioner Goldberg unanounced. The rest is history that we are all too sickeningly familiar with. At the end, when he anounced the tax exemption, DM said the War Is Over and flashed all the tax exemption paperwork. It was over the top.

I don't recall the part about the snakes but it wouldn't surprise me.

Now THAT is how to derail a thread. WTF are you talking about? Please, please explain, I never heard this one...
 

freethinker

Sponsor

freethinker

Sponsor
Re: Threadjacking

If you are talking about my reference to Commander Birdsong on the Anonycat? thread about his TR3, I only used that term so he would understand it, I have no use for TR3 myself but I find it necessary to use Scio Tech terms to talk to Indies.
OK, so I just TOTALLY want to talk about BUNNIES!!!!:biggrin:

omg, I just couldn't resist.... all those unhandled evil perps?:coolwink:

Yeah, I feel the same way about derails, but there just has been some weird drama on this board about folks derailing threads... maybe some "dramatization of keeping in TR3 and TR4?" :roflmao:

Seriously, I've seen weird stuff that almost goes into blood battles on various forums, but I've never quite seen this one play out like it has on this board. Where the HELL is my "bitch please!" emoticon?
 
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I sometimes think Hubbard both believed and didn't believe a lot of his stuff, simultaneously. We are so used to thinking that believing and not believing are mutually exclusive, and that's how seems to be.....but I think hubbard could make shit up and not believe it somehow because it was just a social behaviour/manipulation etc, but also get caught up in it. If you are delusional, be careful of what you try to delude others with; I suppose that's how it goes.

I also think it is possible for all of us normal people :) to believe and not believe something simultaneously. AFAIN this is not talked about much, but it may be a bit like memory, where we used to have ideas about how memory worked that are now being shown to be not at all accurate.

I think that with hubbard's wild make-it-up-as-you-go-along style, he just threw in stuff that he was "working on"/chewing over, with stuff he actually believed, with add ons that he would have considered pure fiction, motivated by his need to be an entertainer/manipulator etc. He did not give a shit which box he pulled stuff out of or how he threw them together. That was the mad part....maybe not autistic, but possibly with some misunderstanding about why other people do NOT do that.

I have a friend offline who did a lot of this stuff when I first knew him.
He doesnt do it much at all now, at least, not with me. But he is a manipulator rather than an up front negotiator.
 

Moorwalker

New Member
I do think that Hubbard believed in the theta concept. I don't think he (originally, at least) believed the SF aspects -- the Xenu-volcano-Galactic Federation angle. He may have done so towards the end of his life, and I'd not be surprised if he'd developed a full-blown schizoaffective disorder by then, or some similar mental aberration. After decades of immersion in the SF trappings, decades of being surrounded only by people who were true believers, and especially with his narcissism whispering (shouting) in his ear that he was certainly the spokesman for Ultimate Truth, he may have fallen in with the believers, himself. It's possible, though, that part of his paranoia towards the end of his life stemmed from knowing that much of the OT III and above material was his own crock, and as his death drew nearer fears of the genuinely unknown hit him hard. If he knew that the cosmogony that underpins the higher levels of Scientology was pure fiction, he may have had fears for his immortal theta/soul at that point. And few things shake the narcissist like the prospect of nonexistence.

Udarnik :"I come from a very different Internet culture than this one (one kinda famous for OPs derailing their own threads)"

Having a number of Russian colleagues and friends, this made me laugh.
 
Yes, you were.

A note on the pronunciation of my nick and Russian transcription. If it were "YOU dar nik", it would be transcribed as "Yudarnik", so the pronunciation is actually "oo DAR nik", accent on the 2nd syllable. So its "an Udarnik", since the first sound is not the consonant Y, but the long "U" vowel sound. Didn't think about it enough to realize that many people would not know that when I did my intro to ESMB, sorry.

So in other words, pronounced with a soft, not a hard U.

You're an Ooey! :biggrin:

:thumbsup: Everybody gets a nickname! :happydance:
 

Student of Trinity

Silver Meritorious Patron
I was always the chick who questioned everything. ... Still blows my mind I was that babbling little cult-idiot.
Questioning everything is too hard. I don't think it's uncommon for a radical skeptic to just get fed up with the misery of never being able to rely on anything, and abruptly settle on something — even something ridiculous — just to escape from the helplessness of total doubt. Like a kid who takes his piggy bank savings to the fair and is so careful about spending it wisely that he keeps it until the fair is about to close, and then suddenly spends it all on a big Micky Mouse balloon that he doesn't even like, because it's the best shot he's got left at having some fun at the fair, instead of just counting pennies and talking himself out of fun. Or maybe like a sailor who doesn't want to trust any leaky vessel, and winds up clutching driftwood when he's too tired to swim. Anyway, I think I can understand how former skeptics can become the most blindly dogmatic. They don't know how to be just a bit critical, and revise things bit by bit, because they've never done that; all they know is total belief and total doubt. If their experience was that doubt was misery and belief was relief, they'll be really reluctant to go back to doubt. So they can't be even critical a bit.

Hubbard's notion of the 'stable datum' is a rehash of a long-familiar truth. You need to take some things for granted. Faith really is a virtue: it helps you get things done, to be able to act on an assumption even though it's not proven.

Science is not about rejecting all assumptions, or doubting everything. Not at all; on the contrary, science needs a lot of infrastructure, both material and theoretical. You can't discard any of that lightly. But what science does do, that humans don't do naturally, is to keep on questioning things a little bit, all the time. Keep on poking and probing, even when things seem to be solid and sound. Otto Neurath framed this principle as an analogy: science is like a ship that is constantly under repair even though it is at sea. You simply stand on the part of the ship that seems most solid, and from there you try to replace the part that seems worst. The plank you stood on then may well be replaced itself, eventually, but that's all right. As long as it held up long enough, to give you a place to stand to repair something else, without everything sinking, then it was good enough for the time.

I think Neurath's is a great analogy. Being a scientist is like being a sailor in those circumstances. You know that your ship has things wrong with it, but you're not quite sure where. You don't decide that some parts are perfect, and never question them, and throw everything else over the side. You try to decide which parts seem best, and you use them as working assumptions, while you work on the parts that seem worst. You keep doing that; you never panic but you never rest. Eventually you may replace the entire ship, even many times over. But you do it a bit at a time. You might get your feet a bit wet but you never have to swim.

That's the kind of thinking that neither total fanatics nor total skeptics seem to know. It's not easy, because you never get to sit back and believe your boat is perfect; but it's not misery, either. You've always got a boat.
 

clamicide

Gold Meritorious Patron
Re: Threadjacking

If you are talking about my reference to Commander Birdsong on the Anonycat? thread about his TR3, I only used that term so he would understand it, I have no use for TR3 myself but I find it necessary to use Scio Tech terms to talk to Indies.

No. And come to think of it, I haven't seen it in a bit, but was referring to the times when people get madly upset when someone derails their thread. There's the suspicious ones where it seems like people want to derail it into nothing that anyone would want to read, but I was referring to the posters who have gone off when someone posts anything not specifically relevant the the OP.
 

Udarnik

Gold Meritorious Patron
Science is not about rejecting all assumptions, or doubting everything. Not at all; on the contrary, science needs a lot of infrastructure, both material and theoretical. You can't discard any of that lightly. But what science does do, that humans don't do naturally, is to keep on questioning things a little bit, all the time. Keep on poking and probing, even when things seem to be solid and sound. Otto Neurath framed this principle as an analogy: science is like a ship that is constantly under repair even though it is at sea. You simply stand on the part of the ship that seems most solid, and from there you try to replace the part that seems worst. The plank you stood on then may well be replaced itself, eventually, but that's all right. As long as it held up long enough, to give you a place to stand to repair something else, without everything sinking, then it was good enough for the time.

Yes, and one of the reasons we strip the ability to get money (blacklist grant applications), and revoke tenure for people who are caught deliberately falsifying data - and those revocations are permanent. We rely on others to be honest because no one has the time to test every experiment detailed in the literature, nor the mental bandwith to run over the results in gedankenexperiments for inconsistencies. When that trust is broken, we kick them to the curb with no remorse. People who commit lesser crimes such as habitually cherry picking, tend not to lose their positions, but they do find it a lot harder to get grant money as well.

The facts laid down in the literature do need to be consistent, though. The observations that led Newton to the laws of motion were not disputed by Eisnstein in Relativity, Einstein merely said that Newton's laws were a special case when speeds were far below relativistic.
 

Udarnik

Gold Meritorious Patron
Re: Threadjacking

No. And come to think of it, I haven't seen it in a bit, but was referring to the times when people get madly upset when someone derails their thread. There's the suspicious ones where it seems like people want to derail it into nothing that anyone would want to read, but I was referring to the posters who have gone off when someone posts anything not specifically relevant the the OP.

Yeah, I think part of it is the OSA paranoia some exhibit, not that there isn't reason to be somewhat suspicious, but that can be taken too far.
 

Student of Trinity

Silver Meritorious Patron
Yes, and one of the reasons we strip the ability to get money (blacklist grant applications), and revoke tenure for people who are caught deliberately falsifying data - and those revocations are permanent. We rely on others to be honest because no one has the time to test every experiment detailed in the literature, nor the mental bandwith to run over the results in gedankenexperiments for inconsistencies. When that trust is broken, we kick them to the curb with no remorse. People who commit lesser crimes such as habitually cherry picking, tend not to lose their positions, but they do find it a lot harder to get grant money as well.
Right. I forget who said that a false fact is more injurious to science than any false theory, but it's a serious point because in practice people just don't check facts as often as would be nice. Testing theories is much easier than checking facts, in many cases. Often a purported fact that would be hard to check gets treated for a long time as one of those seemingly good parts of the ship on which one should stand while fixing other things. It can take quite a while before enough suspicion is aroused for someone to say, as it were, Gadzooks, Captain, but could there be a leak right here under the quarterdeck?

The facts laid down in the literature do need to be consistent, though. The observations that led Newton to the laws of motion were not disputed by Einstein in Relativity, Einstein merely said that Newton's laws were a special case when speeds were far below relativistic.
This is one part of how it is that there's always a ship. Even though the ship of science may end up being like Theseus's ship, in which every single component had been replaced since it was made, still there's enough continuity that it remains recognizably the same ship. Each new plank has to fit reasonably smoothly into the rest of the ship. Scientific revolutions are never as abrupt, to working scientists, as they may seem to be in popular accounts. There's always quite a lot of continuity in what you actually do, even when the story you're supposed to tell about why you're doing it changes completely. Science is 'bit-by-bit' critical.
 

OhMG

Patron Meritorious
That's the kind of thinking that neither total fanatics nor total skeptics seem to know. It's not easy, because you never get to sit back and believe your boat is perfect; but it's not misery, either. You've always got a boat.

Well put. Unfortunately, many in the scientific community tends to hold their theories as perfect. I remember when a scientist verified extra galactic GRB's (which falsified the formula E=MC2) he was ostracized and called all kinds of vile names by "scientists" in the physics arena.
 

Student of Trinity

Silver Meritorious Patron
a scientist verified extra galactic GRB's (which falsified the formula E=MC2)

You've lost me, there. I remember the early controversies over gamma ray bursts. Most people thought they were probably extra-galactic, just because our galaxy is a tiny fraction of the visible universe, but it was hard to rule out sources within our galaxy because we only knew the direction in the sky from which the bursts came. We had no data about distance to the source.

But how could extra-galactic gamma ray bursts falsify the rest energy formula? Gamma rays have rest mass zero. So I just don't see any connection. Are you sure you haven't just been taken in by a crackpot? Sometimes science accepts mistakes for a long time, but for every such leaky plank that goes too long unchallenged, there are thousands of crackpots claiming to have a better plank, but really just being much too incompetent to be trusted with a dinghy.
 

Panda Termint

Cabal Of One
THIS is the debate I want to get at. It sheds a lot of light on his mental state to know if he actually believed this crap or not. Arguments pro and con would be appreciated.
In my opinion, it's not even debatable. He believed it completely. He was the first person he ever convinced! If you want evidence, listen to the Class VIII tapes, particularly the ones where he's flipping his lid over others failing to "get it".
 
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