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Questions To Ask Mike Rinder

Vinaire

Sponsor
We ALL contributed to what that scene became.

As long as each one of us can take responsibility for own actions and stop blaming the other guys we are making headway.

I helped all of the Int Execs by working in the Sea Org.

You too have helped.

If Mike decided to leave that game and not support those people any longer he should be applauded and helped for no longer lending his support to a suppressive group.

But NOOOOOOOO, some people just can't wait to drag him in the villiage now and get a fire going.

And you are being just like the group he just decided he did not want to be a part of any more.

At least if you are going to sit back and mention the out points in that group you ought to be able to demonstrate an evolution in your own social intercourse.

But NOOOOO, now we have moved up to BORDER PATROL! Going to police that border between the Sea Org and the rest of the world.

I thought you didn't want to play that game?

How must Mike Rinder be treated must be best left to his actions in the present time.

Those rubbing their hands in glee with the prospects of punishing him are simply overcome by their ego , which wishes for revenge and negative energy to feed on.

.
 

Vinaire

Sponsor
I've known Mike, to some degree or other, for over 15 years.

I am sure he has made life hell for quite a number of people through his OSA activities.

Does someone really think he did this out of "bad will toward people?"

Or do you think he did it because he believed, through years of indoctrination into LRH policy, that this was the greatest good for the greatest number of dynamics and that he was safeguarding mankinds only salvation by fighting SPs?

I believe he did it for the latter reason.

Do you really want revenge for having been fooled by LRH?

I was. Weren't you?

I would only expect people who really think Mike worked as the head of OSA because he wanted to hurt people to say he should now "pay back."

You have no idea how much he has already "paid," what kind of life he has lead due to his previous position, due to his close connection to DM.

Isn't it enough that he came to his senses and has shown the rest of the world that not even the most dedicated of Scientologists no longer agree with the way DM is "managing" his religion? (Because it now is DM's religion) That he doesn't think the Church delivers what it promises?

Isn't it enough that he suffered months in the "SP Room"?

Isn't it enough that his wife and daughter are still on the base, and they are not let out?

Isn't that enough of payback?

All I would ask of him, personally, would be to tell the truth about Scientology, its current management and what he knows about DMs takeover, motivations, activities and plans.

I don't think he will ever be able to live in peace with himself unless he does.

But, as with all of us, it is his decision.

I welcome him to the outside world.

It'll take him time to recover, he has more to recover from than any of us.

He was fooled the same the rest of were, just deeper, so his crash in coming to grips with reality will be deeper accordingly.

I believe we automatically "pay the price" when we leave by what we have to come to grips with, in proportion to how thoroughly we allowed ourselves to do things against our own judgment, for "the greatest good for the greatest number of dynamics," no matter how wrong it felt, deep inside.

As far as I am concerned, he is now one of us, no better, no worse.

Amen.

I second this approach.

.
 

Vinaire

Sponsor
Hey Vinaire, I think we all "got it" about your feelings towards Rinder.

I hope this is a big enough "ack".

Oh! I was just going through the thread and was commenting as I went along.

I have no special feelings toward Mike Rinder, other than treating a person in his position rationally and with compassion.

I knew Mike Rinder on Apollo during mid-seventies. I was mostly an observer from another culture at that time.

.
 

Bea Kiddo

Crusader
I feel I am on the same frequency as OHTEEATE and HAIQU.

It seems to me that FORCE starts where INTELLIGENCE ends.

MEST is a force universe. CoS has been fast approaching that status.

.

I guess I'd kinda feel that way too. But even if it did manage major change, that doesnt mean I'D jump right on the bandwagon. There were a lot of screwy things technically, as well as the management. Maybe the tech is correct in some ways, maybe not. I am still not sure about that. I think the environment in which it is currently used makes it way too hard to tell. Maybe self help is a neccessary thing, maybe not. (Kinda sound wishy washy here - I mean to say: Some parts of the tech were alright. But dont ever try to give me a session. Screw off. But I liked helping other people. I'd also have to have someone PROVE to me that LRH did not lie, and that someone else made up facts for him. And I dont think that will ever happen.)
 

Bea Kiddo

Crusader
Oh! I was just going through the thread and was commenting as I went along.

I have no special feelings toward Mike Rinder, other than treating a person in his position rationally and with compassion.

I knew Mike Rinder on Apollo during mid-seventies. I was mostly an observer from another culture at that time.

.

Are you sure you aren't spamming us? :hug:
 

Kookaburra

Gold Meritorious Patron
You are some pretty alert people. I think on some level you and I see the same things. I think when we see the list of people in the "SP Hall" at Int, and the departure of Mike Rinder, alarm bells go off. I see the SP Miscavige destroying the Scientology religion. We disagree whether that is a good or bad thing. I think it is a bad thing, if only for the fact that so many of us gained wisdom of our selves in session. I think things are at a crucial stage in this evolution. Like, weeks or months, not years. What do you see?

I think the CoS has gone too far down the path of enforcing agreement whether people agree or not, of dictating what people are to think and do, of conditioning to accept lies, follow orders or face the too gruesome consequences. It's just gone too far down this path to ever backpedal out of it. There is no self-determined action left in that environment. Except to leave.

What would have to be done to salvage the scene at this point will not be done. It would be along the lines of disband OSA, apologise to every person who has been fair gamed, declared, disconnected or off-loaded. Cancel the RPF. Ban imprisonment of fellow SO members. Cancel GAT. Cancel Fair Game, for real this time. Cancel freeloader policy. Cancel any and all out of session OW pulling and sec checking. Pay the staff. Get them up the bridge. Call in all old time (pre GAT) auditors so they can train the new ones. Post all the OSA and RPF in service orgs to beef up the tech lines and focus on delivering real Scientology. Issue a all encompassing and unconditional amnesty, which cancels all declares and clears every ethics folder. Then pulp the folders to make sure.........

Dream on.

Won't happen.

Miscavige is so far over the line with the SP room, something has to give and soon.

OHTEEATE, I've been thinking for quite some time, that the house of cards is about to come tumbling down. It is feeling closer now, though.

I think we had better prepare to receive a deluge of XSO and ex staff.

Regards

Kookaburra
 

Lulu Belle

Moonbat
I think the CoS has gone too far down the path of enforcing agreement whether people agree or not, of dictating what people are to think and do, of conditioning to accept lies, follow orders or face the too gruesome consequences. It's just gone too far down this path to ever backpedal out of it. There is no self-determined action left in that environment. Except to leave.

What would have to be done to salvage the scene at this point will not be done. It would be along the lines of disband OSA, apologise to every person who has been fair gamed, declared, disconnected or off-loaded. Cancel the RPF. Ban imprisonment of fellow SO members. Cancel GAT. Cancel Fair Game, for real this time. Cancel freeloader policy. Cancel any and all out of session OW pulling and sec checking. Pay the staff. Get them up the bridge. Call in all old time (pre GAT) auditors so they can train the new ones. Post all the OSA and RPF in service orgs to beef up the tech lines and focus on delivering real Scientology. Issue a all encompassing and unconditional amnesty, which cancels all declares and clears every ethics folder. Then pulp the folders to make sure.........

Dream on.

Won't happen.

Miscavige is so far over the line with the SP room, something has to give and soon.

OHTEEATE, I've been thinking for quite some time, that the house of cards is about to come tumbling down. It is feeling closer now, though.

I think we had better prepare to receive a deluge of XSO and ex staff.

Regards

Kookaburra

:goodposting:
 

Vinaire

Sponsor
What would have to be done to salvage the scene at this point will not be done. It would be along the lines of disband OSA, apologise to every person who has been fair gamed, declared, disconnected or off-loaded. Cancel the RPF. Ban imprisonment of fellow SO members. Cancel GAT. Cancel Fair Game, for real this time. Cancel freeloader policy. Cancel any and all out of session OW pulling and sec checking. Pay the staff. Get them up the bridge. Call in all old time (pre GAT) auditors so they can train the new ones. Post all the OSA and RPF in service orgs to beef up the tech lines and focus on delivering real Scientology. Issue a all encompassing and unconditional amnesty, which cancels all declares and clears every ethics folder. Then pulp the folders to make sure.........

I like this plan.

.
 

OHTEEATE

Silver Meritorious Patron
Having only recently regained some of my ability to see the future, I wouldn't want to test it on this example. I agree that the destruction of the church is a bad thing, but perhaps pointing out that this has already happened might indicate. The continuing existence of the MEST of the church doesn't a church make, as witness all the olde worlde Christian edifices dotting the countryside, unused.

My assessment:

The CoS ceased to exist, to my mind, the day legal failed to make the correct deal on the MSH case against LRH's instructions. The church by that time was already infiltrated and everything since then has been an ongoing farce. What happens to Mike Rinder or any of these clowns no longer concerns me. We are simply witnessing the death rattles of what remains of the GE, the thetan having departed long ago, despite DM's reassurance to the contrary when the IAS was created.

The current organization emphasizes too heavily the third and fourth dynamic games, at the expense of the first and second. While it is admirable for an organization to have high aspirations, the third and fourth dynamics are secondary and long-term targets and attempting to "handle" them at this point is out gradient.

Desperately grabbing IAS funds from a smaller subset of public who can afford it (the wealthy) is a very short-term solution. To come close to present time, the potentially positive PR aspects of building more "ideal orgs" (better MEST) is negated by the living conditions of SO crew, which have always been squalid. This is obvious to anyone who has been around the subject, even as a public, for any length of time.

Int. Management are driving down the wrong side of the highway, playing chicken with the trucks coming the other way. No, a better analogy might be a poker player using the stake doubling method to get themselves out of trouble. Eventually one either wins big or, more usually, runs out of money. The Super Power building is on hold because the required funding just isn't forthcoming. But the very existence of such was a wrong priority in the first place, since that tech was supposed to have been in full delivery 25 years ago.

There's no excuse for this level of incompetence. And at the root of it all lies David Miscavige, who has never learned the one real lesson he needed to make it all go right:

The correct balance of force and intelligence.

David is a force person. I have yet to see any comment by him that struck me as having the slightest clue about intelligence. And judging by the self-aggrandizing babble on official CoS sites, his only aim is to stay in the job indefinitely. I can thus see the wisdom of his wearing bullet-proof vests at public events, because that is what it will take to be rid of him, and he knows it.

So, leaving him in place gets us more of the same, and removing him violently will kill the subject entirely. There was one moment of opportunity for a coup d'état during the mission holders' conference, but nobody took the opportunity or responsibility for the overall game. And those who could have taken over the reigns are now too old, and have no interest.

We have what we have by default, and it's useless. So, bypass it and do what you can outside the clutches of such idiocy. And that's my logical reasoning for being in the Freezone. What happens to the church now is of mild interest, but in the long run doesn't really matter. That game is already over, and watching the occasional rat scuttle off the ship hardly rates a mention.

haiqu

Good points, and also Vinaires assessment, that it is becoming MEST. I personally never cared a damn about the orgs not being rich looking, except when it extended to not having toilet paper! Ideal orgs will be useless if the name of Scientology is equated with blood sucking cult worldwide. People will stay away. The Ao at Flag is very nice, and the auditing rooms are gorgeous, and behind the scenes staff scream at each other and the auditors are treated like slaves. Maybe you are right. Maybe it was really over in the 80's. Mike
 

OHTEEATE

Silver Meritorious Patron
I think the CoS has gone too far down the path of enforcing agreement whether people agree or not, of dictating what people are to think and do, of conditioning to accept lies, follow orders or face the too gruesome consequences. It's just gone too far down this path to ever backpedal out of it. There is no self-determined action left in that environment. Except to leave.

What would have to be done to salvage the scene at this point will not be done. It would be along the lines of disband OSA, apologise to every person who has been fair gamed, declared, disconnected or off-loaded. Cancel the RPF. Ban imprisonment of fellow SO members. Cancel GAT. Cancel Fair Game, for real this time. Cancel freeloader policy. Cancel any and all out of session OW pulling and sec checking. Pay the staff. Get them up the bridge. Call in all old time (pre GAT) auditors so they can train the new ones. Post all the OSA and RPF in service orgs to beef up the tech lines and focus on delivering real Scientology. Issue a all encompassing and unconditional amnesty, which cancels all declares and clears every ethics folder. Then pulp the folders to make sure.........

Dream on.

Won't happen.

Miscavige is so far over the line with the SP room, something has to give and soon.

OHTEEATE, I've been thinking for quite some time, that the house of cards is about to come tumbling down. It is feeling closer now, though.

I think we had better prepare to receive a deluge of XSO and ex staff.

Regards

Kookaburra

I agree. It's looking like they kill anyone who dares stand up. Then they resurrect them and give them the same job they got killed for the last time. No matter what OSA has "done" to me or is planning to "do" to me, I would still be willing to forgive Mike Rinder his part if he came clean and helped correct the wrongs. I believe the story needs to be told, otherwise, the lies persist, and the public has wool pulled over their eyes.
 

Little Bear Victor

Silver Meritorious Patron
I agree. It's looking like they kill anyone who dares stand up. Then they resurrect them and give them the same job they got killed for the last time. No matter what OSA has "done" to me or is planning to "do" to me, I would still be willing to forgive Mike Rinder his part if he came clean and helped correct the wrongs. I believe the story needs to be told, otherwise, the lies persist, and the public has wool pulled over their eyes.

Bts2free posted on OCMB that Rinder called in and was sent his personal belongings. This would mean that RTC most likely knows where he is, either his phone number or address. It would also mean they would send a person to talk to him to make him change his mind, probably accompanied by an auditor to give him a session (part of the blowee drill). Now who the hell could be sent to talk to Rinder who would have any chance of making him change his mind? DM wouldn't go there himself -- he'd just blow his stack and throw Mike on the wall; wouldn't help matters. Would have to be an RTC terminal; you wouldn't send anybody junior to him to talk to him either... I can only think of a few possibilities: Warren McShane (D/IG Internal Affairs RTC) or Anne Rathbun (RTC Rep FLB). About all the choices they've got. If Warren is already watching over the Hall and Anne Rathbun over Shelly Miscavige, it's a pickle.
 

Zinjifar

Silver Meritorious Sponsor
Bts2free posted on OCMB that Rinder called in and was sent his personal belongings. This would mean that RTC most likely knows where he is, either his phone number or address. It would also mean they would send a person to talk to him to make him change his mind, probably accompanied by an auditor to give him a session (part of the blowee drill). Now who the hell could be sent to talk to Rinder who would have any chance of making him change his mind? DM wouldn't go there himself -- he'd just blow his stack and throw Mike on the wall; wouldn't help matters. Would have to be an RTC terminal; you wouldn't send anybody junior to him to talk to him either... I can only think of a few possibilities: Warren McShane (D/IG Internal Affairs RTC) or Anne Rathbun (RTC Rep FLB). About all the choices they've got. If Warren is already watching over the Hall and Anne Rathbun over Shelly Miscavige, it's a pickle.

What I find interesting is that Warren McShane and Marty Rathbun disappeared from the RTC Roster at the same time; and had their divorces just prior to that too.

But, neither seems to be in the 'Hall'.

Could the whole thing have been a smoke-screen and they're both off preparing the 'Platinum Base' for the Poodle's 'bug out'?

Zinj
 

Little Bear Victor

Silver Meritorious Patron
What I find interesting is that Warren McShane and Marty Rathbun disappeared from the RTC Roster at the same time; and had their divorces just prior to that too.

But, neither seems to be in the 'Hall'.

Could the whole thing have been a smoke-screen and they're both off preparing the 'Platinum Base' for the Poodle's 'bug out'?

Zinj

No. I don't know who's doing that.

Warren is not in the Hall (or at least wasn't the last I know) for the simple reason that he was in charge of the Hall. Of course, things like that can change rapidly... The irony you learned to expect was that if someone was in charge of, say, offloading people, he would end up offloaded himself at the end. Fair and equal justice at practice, DM style.

Marty Rathbun, rumor says, may be deceased. Last seen, to my recollection, at Flag Mill or something, some years ago. If you haven't read all the previous stories, in short: He blew somewhere around 2004, was on Flag RPF then Flag Mill. I might not have that exactly right, since I've read it in many pieces. What I know for sure is that he blew from the SO around 2004, and never went back to Int after that. On my attempt to put this on the time track it was after he had been auditing TC.
 
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