Questions To Ask Mike Rinder

[Kookaburra]

I guess I'd kinda feel that way too. But even if it did manage major change, that doesnt mean I'D jump right on the bandwagon. There were a lot of screwy things technically, as well as the management. Maybe the tech is correct in some ways, maybe not. I am still not sure about that. I think the environment in which it is currently used makes it way too hard to tell.

The more I read, the more it becomes obvious that everything that was good in Scn is gone. It used to be heaps of fun. The parties were great! People worked hard and played hard. The food was excellent. People were winning and making case gain. The staff were all smiling and co-operating. You could criticize to your hearts content. You might get told to go fix it, or shown the policy that should have been applied, but you certainly didn't get sent to ethics or given rollback.

I'm not saying everything was perfect. Far from it. But there was an ideal scene to work towards, and the insanities would get knocked out from time to time. And we had a very workable tech. Up until about 1981.

Then everything went batshit. This attempt to get ethics in by force, by spying, the invention of the enemy line concept, in hindsight is the downfall of CoS. This completely removed any possibility of self correction. From that point, there has been a steady erosion of orgs, of staff, of the third dynamic, then the second dynamic, then the GAT tech re-write. Query any of that and you were out. It's just been one long downhill slide from there.

At this point, I believe there are only a handful of auditors left who are trained pre-GAT who are not declared or blown or otherwise not on tech lines, so the whole of CoS actually doesn't have the tech any more. They don't even have the resources to get it back, having pulped their books, edited the tapes, declared their Sups and C/S's and otherwise destroyed any chance of recovering the tech.

So much for the sqillions of dollars spent on tech preservation. Lotta good it does buried in the ground and totally inaccessible.

Maybe self help is a neccessary thing, maybe not. (Kinda sound wishy washy here - I mean to say: Some parts of the tech were alright. But dont ever try to give me a session. Screw off.

Sounds like I made the wrong suggestion to you when I suggested using some problems processes to unstick the flows to your Dad. Sorry Bea!

You are from an era where, from what I can gather, only part of the tech was left and auditing was oft as not, done for some other reason than to help the PC, when it was done at all. I think I'd be refusing sessions, too, if I'd been through 5 years of RPF co-audit! It must have been very difficult to function as a C/S in that atmosphere.

But I liked helping other people.

Of course! You are an auditor.

I'd also have to have someone PROVE to me that LRH did not lie, and that someone else made up facts for him. And I dont think that will ever happen.)

It certainly won't. Since I've been on the internet, I've found out some amazing things. Utter heresy! It seems LRH was delusional to the point that he could not tell reality from fiction, and he was a professional fiction writer!

 

[OHTEEATE]

BBC Panorama

In an update show, which had a 2 or 3 minute clip about the John Sweeney episode update at the end, John said that 2 million people have seen the YOu Tube clips, which are broken into 4 parts or 3 parts, depending on who edited it. Combined with the 4.5 million who saw it when it aired, and the half million or more who have viewed it from BBC video archives, at least 7 million people mostly in the UK , have been warned about at least some of the negative aspects of Scientology membership. This is reverse dissemination on a massive scale. Being a Dissem Course grad, and now having achieved the exact opposite. I feel it only proper that I write a success story:
When in doubt, communicate. How true. My family stopped all comm, and blamed me and my wife , and the CofS said they would all be kicked off staff and off the Bridge because of me. My father was dying of cancer, lying in hospital, not having heard from 5 of his 6 kids in 5 years. No communication. Well, I communicated. I asked Chuck Beatty who he knew that was onto disconnection, and I got an email from the BBC. One thing led to another, and 7 million people got to hear my story. I know one thing got through loud and clear. I was upset. Then, Scientology proved their critics to be absolutely correct, by doing exactly what Russell Miller and I said would happen: they will follow you, and try to destroy you. They tried to get John Sweeney fired from his job. Mike Rinder said we do it for our "15 minutes of fame". Us apostates and extortionists. Well, here's the thing...if I had got my Brother and Sisters to just call my Dad and make peace with him, for 5 minutes, the BBC would never have heard from me. Think about that one for awhile. Now, you have an OT8 who will never stop coming after you, who you have no idea how to "handle", as I know WAY too much for you to ever think of actually screwing with me. My knowledge is the equivalent of Weapons of Mass Destruction to you. Sleep well. I do. I am your ENEMY until the whole house of cards comes crashing down around your vile heads.

 

[The Oracle]

Having only recently regained some of my ability to see the future, I wouldn't want to test it on this example. I agree that the destruction of the church is a bad thing, but perhaps pointing out that this has already happened might indicate. The continuing existence of the MEST of the church doesn't a church make, as witness all the olde worlde Christian edifices dotting the countryside, unused.

My assessment:

The CoS ceased to exist, to my mind, the day legal failed to make the correct deal on the MSH case against LRH's instructions. The church by that time was already infiltrated and everything since then has been an ongoing farce. What happens to Mike Rinder or any of these clowns no longer concerns me. We are simply witnessing the death rattles of what remains of the GE, the thetan having departed long ago, despite DM's reassurance to the contrary when the IAS was created.

The current organization emphasizes too heavily the third and fourth dynamic games, at the expense of the first and second. While it is admirable for an organization to have high aspirations, the third and fourth dynamics are secondary and long-term targets and attempting to "handle" them at this point is out gradient.

Desperately grabbing IAS funds from a smaller subset of public who can afford it (the wealthy) is a very short-term solution. To come close to present time, the potentially positive PR aspects of building more "ideal orgs" (better MEST) is negated by the living conditions of SO crew, which have always been squalid. This is obvious to anyone who has been around the subject, even as a public, for any length of time.

Int. Management are driving down the wrong side of the highway, playing chicken with the trucks coming the other way. No, a better analogy might be a poker player using the stake doubling method to get themselves out of trouble. Eventually one either wins big or, more usually, runs out of money. The Super Power building is on hold because the required funding just isn't forthcoming. But the very existence of such was a wrong priority in the first place, since that tech was supposed to have been in full delivery 25 years ago.

There's no excuse for this level of incompetence. And at the root of it all lies David Miscavige, who has never learned the one real lesson he needed to make it all go right:

The correct balance of force and intelligence.

David is a force person. I have yet to see any comment by him that struck me as having the slightest clue about intelligence. And judging by the self-aggrandizing babble on official CoS sites, his only aim is to stay in the job indefinitely. I can thus see the wisdom of his wearing bullet-proof vests at public events, because that is what it will take to be rid of him, and he knows it.

So, leaving him in place gets us more of the same, and removing him violently will kill the subject entirely. There was one moment of opportunity for a coup d'état during the mission holders' conference, but nobody took the opportunity or responsibility for the overall game. And those who could have taken over the reigns are now too old, and have no interest.

We have what we have by default, and it's useless. So, bypass it and do what you can outside the clutches of such idiocy. And that's my logical reasoning for being in the Freezone. What happens to the church now is of mild interest, but in the long run doesn't really matter. That game is already over, and watching the occasional rat scuttle off the ship hardly rates a mention.

haiqu

Very well said. And so true. Thank you for posting.

 

[toryismyhero]

I wouldn't sign a thing if Mike showed up at my doorstep. I'd throw away the paper and would say "Well done! You should be proud that you realized where this vicious trend was inevitably going to lead you and the rest of the planet, decided to no longer support the insanity and managed to leave the place against all odds! Now go live your life!"

Victor

Well said, Victor!

 

[Little Bear Victor]

Update

I'm happy to be able to give you a brief update on Mike Rinder.

I just got a confirmation he is still out. This is good to hear, as I was getting slightly worried that he might be talked, tricked, coerced or forced to return. None of that has (successfully) taken place, and he is safely out and in good hands. Good going, Mike!

He also confirmed the status of the Int Base as no-one still on post at CMOI, WDC and Exec Strata as of about 4 months ago. He had been off base in UK on the Panorama cycle for three months before taking off, so didn't have any later data.

And Mike, if you happen to be reading this, you know that many people have questions for you -- not that it came as a big surprise or anything. OCMB has more pointed arguments about whether you should talk openly now and lay out in the open all the lies that you were so well educated into telling.

I, and most of us here in the outside world, consider you left your enforced-reality role behind the moment you said you've had it with the BS. A few people here think you will have to prove something. I don't know what further there is to prove, since you're already clearly shown you will not support the "Church of David Miscavige" which he has turned into a massive nonprofit money-making operation for his own personal benefit. Yes, you know the deal: In any investigation, just "follow the money" and you've got your cat.

It's not like as if some statement: "Hey guys, I blew!" is going to clarify it further, at least not for me. Matter of fact, I can as well say it: "Hey guys, he blew! It's true. He's no longer answerable to Slavemaster Dave! He can do whatever the heck he pleases, and no longer will you see him on national talk shows trying to 'DA' SP lies. For he knows they were not lies."

Still, when the time is right -- and I speak for the great majority of us now -- we would like to know how it all went down, from YOUR perspective. I won't repeat any of the unanswered questions. If you wonder what it is we would like to know, this thread contains some of the key ones. But it is up to you when you feel that you are ready to speak.

Maybe it is information that is your best bargaining power to get your family back. I hate to speak of this, a rather personal situation, like as if it was some modern slave-trade issue -- then again, it is not that far from it. It is mental -- and now even physical -- detention against one's will. That cannot be made less of; not with LRH policy, not with any excuse.

I know you will not enjoy your freedom before those you care for are with you to enjoy it as well. And you will not have full freedom from your past ever unless you let go of the mental chains that will command you to not speak up against the abuses.

You've broken the link. You've dragged yourself out. You have a hold on freedom. Now, let's get rid of the whole chain, so you can face the future. That is my request to you.

If you need any further assistance, I'm sure most of the members of this board would be more than happy to assist. Matter of fact, if you want to give any more updates, directly or indirectly, I can post them here. That is one way to expose the behind-the-scenes insanities.

I well remember you being faced with the self-appointed tyrant, with his face purple and eyes flaming from hatred, shaking his two middle fingers at you like the psycho he is. Well, I guess that's his way to say "thanks" for your help in keeping Scientology working. It seemed to be the way we all get thanked in the end.

But remember that Dave will look real small and real human when he is standing on the other side of the courtroom with no one left to defend him but himself. As for the other potential defendants -- they're all your ex-juniors; do you think he would dare to bring any one of them along? And do you think they would stay for long if they were?

Good luck -- Or, should I say, Good Hunting!

V

 

[Div6]

I'm happy to be able to give you a brief update on Mike Rinder.

I just got a confirmation he is still out. This is good to hear, as I was getting slightly worried that he might be talked, tricked, coerced or forced to return. None of that has (successfully) taken place, and he is safely out and in good hands. Good going, Mike!

He also confirmed the status of the Int Base as no-one still on post at CMOI, WDC and Exec Strata as of about 4 months ago. He had been off base in UK on the Panorama cycle for three months before taking off, so didn't have any later data.

And Mike, if you happen to be reading this, you know that many people have questions for you -- not that it came as a big surprise or anything. OCMB has more pointed arguments about whether you should talk openly now and lay out in the open all the lies that you were so well educated into telling.

I, and most of us here in the outside world, consider you left your enforced-reality role behind the moment you said you've had it with the BS. A few people here think you will have to prove something. I don't know what further there is to prove, since you're already clearly shown you will not support the "Church of David Miscavige" which he has turned into a massive nonprofit money-making operation for his own personal benefit. Yes, you know the deal: In any investigation, just "follow the money" and you've got your cat.

It's not like as if some statement: "Hey guys, I blew!" is going to clarify it further, at least not for me. Matter of fact, I can as well say it: "Hey guys, he blew! It's true. He's no longer answerable to Slavemaster Dave! He can do whatever the heck he pleases, and no longer will you see him on national talk shows trying to 'DA' SP lies. For he knows they were not lies."

Still, when the time is right -- and I speak for the great majority of us now -- we would like to know how it all went down, from YOUR perspective. I won't repeat any of the unanswered questions. If you wonder what it is we would like to know, this thread contains some of the key ones. But it is up to you when you feel that you are ready to speak.

Maybe it is information that is your best bargaining power to get your family back. I hate to speak of this, a rather personal situation, like as if it was some modern slave-trade issue -- then again, it is not that far from it. It is mental -- and now even physical -- detention against one's will. That cannot be made less of; not with LRH policy, not with any excuse.

I know you will not enjoy your freedom before those you care for are with you to enjoy it as well. And you will not have full freedom from your past ever unless you let go of the mental chains that will command you to not speak up against the abuses.

You've broken the link. You've dragged yourself out. You have a hold on freedom. Now, let's get rid of the whole chain, so you can face the future. That is my request to you.

If you need any further assistance, I'm sure most of the members of this board would be more than happy to assist. Matter of fact, if you want to give any more updates, directly or indirectly, I can post them here. That is one way to expose the behind-the-scenes insanities.

I well remember you being faced with the self-appointed tyrant, with his face purple and eyes flaming from hatred, shaking his two middle fingers at you like the psycho he is. Well, I guess that's his way to say "thanks" for your help in keeping Scientology working. It seemed to be the way we all get thanked in the end.

But remember that Dave will look real small and real human when he is standing on the other side of the courtroom with no one left to defend him but himself. As for the other potential defendants -- they're all your ex-juniors; do you think he would dare to bring any one of them along? And do you think they would stay for long if they were?

Good luck -- Or, should I say, Good Hunting!

V

<Queueing "Another One Bite's the Dust:> and here at radio ESMB, the beat goes on.....

 

[OHTEEATE]

Mike Rinder

Nice post Victor. Mike can help get rid of DM or not. He can get his family out or not (they will be indoctrinated to turn on him and refuse to leave the SO). The real question is, after DM what is left? Is it salvageable? What do you do, go back and correct the ridiculous lies told about the life of LRH for the past 50 years? Do you allow the REAL biography to be written, warts and all? How many people really can afford to spend virtually ALL their disposable income on doing the upper Bridge? Is it really worth it? Is there anything really there above OT VIII? ( I did through 8 and think there IS something there.) Has Mithof really done OT 10 and is he able beyond Homo Sap or not? Mike obviously has more time and pain invested than some, and more of his own participation to sort through as well. He is still admired by many who served with him who have been out for 20 years or more. That says something for the guy. Maybe he can clear up some residual wonderings, and actually make more of a contribution to a sort out. He can also take a look at testifying against DM for assault and battery against staff members. Mike Rinder has common sense, He'll figure out what to do.

 

[Terril park]

Nice post Victor. Mike can help get rid of DM or not. He can get his family out or not (they will be indoctrinated to turn on him and refuse to leave the SO). The real question is, after DM what is left? Is it salvageable? What do you do, go back and correct the ridiculous lies told about the life of LRH for the past 50 years? Do you allow the REAL biography to be written, warts and all? How many people really can afford to spend virtually ALL their disposable income on doing the upper Bridge? Is it really worth it? Is there anything really there above OT VIII? ( I did through 8 and think there IS something there.) Has Mithof really done OT 10 and is he able beyond Homo Sap or not? Mike obviously has more time and pain invested than some, and more of his own participation to sort through as well. He is still admired by many who served with him who have been out for 20 years or more. That says something for the guy. Maybe he can clear up some residual wonderings, and actually make more of a contribution to a sort out. He can also take a look at testifying against DM for assault and battery against staff members. Mike Rinder has common sense, He'll figure out what to do.

What is left? The FZ and independant field.

Broadly much of the data warts and all is known, or at least available.

Doing OT 2 and 3 is approx $1000 each including training. OT7 requires training and C/S assistence from time to time. Is probably the same I guess.

The class XIIs are looking at levels above OT VIII.

 

[Lulu Belle]

IAnd Mike, if you happen to be reading this, you know that many people have questions for you -- not that it came as a big surprise or anything. OCMB has more pointed arguments about whether you should talk openly now and lay out in the open all the lies that you were so well educated into telling.

Do you happen to know if he reads the internet?

Does he look at these sites?

 

[Little Bear Victor]

Do you happen to know if he reads the internet?

Does he look at these sites?

I can only answer you with a question: Wouldn't you?

V

 

[Kilia]

I hear from a.r.s. that he is really out and it's not a rumour anymore.

 

[OHTEEATE]

He's really out

He is really out. I got it from someone I know and trust who has first hand knowledge, he is really out, and staying out.

 

[Pascal]

He is really out. I got it from someone I know and trust who has first hand knowledge, he is really out, and staying out.

Great news. I wonder who will replace all the big wigs. DM has an army of clones in training right?

 

[OHTEEATE]

clones?

I know a few of the "clones" in training, as I served shoulder to shoulder with them at Flag in 2005. They had very little idea what they were getting themselves into. I hope they survive the experience ok. It will be rough. Those of us "out here" are in for a wild ride as well the way the economy is shaping up lately.

 

[Pascal]

Maybe it's time someone "played God". I never got why LRH was down on that idea... He must have had overts doing this, like his lame reach with psychiatry, being an ex psych himself.

 

[jodie]

Man, do I have a few questions for him.

Not sure what state of mind he would be in.

He knows enough to know he cannot go to the authorities for protection, at least not in the USA, Australia, since they are infiltrated, and DM would already have put a target on him through their networks.

Europe is his best bet.

- jodie

 

[Emma]

Man, do I have a few questions for him.

Not sure what state of mind he would be in.

He knows enough to know he cannot go to the authorities for protection, at least not in the USA, Australia, since they are infiltrated, and DM would already have put a target on him through their networks.

Europe is his best bet.

- jodie

Jodie!!!!!

Nice to see you

 

[Pascal]

Man, do I have a few questions for him.

Not sure what state of mind he would be in.

He knows enough to know he cannot go to the authorities for protection, at least not in the USA, Australia, since they are infiltrated, and DM would already have put a target on him through their networks.

Europe is his best bet.

- jodie

I'd give him a hand to settle here in Lima. The food and women here will help him deal with what he's going through.

 

[jodie]

Jodie!!!!!

Nice to see you

Emma! Thanks for that welcome! :thanks:

 

[jodie]

I'd give him a hand to settle here in Lima. The food and women here will help him deal with what he's going through.

You're right, the best cure he could ever wish for! Also give him some perspective on life.

- jodie