Rathbun does it again...

HelluvaHoax!

Platinum Meritorious Sponsor with bells on
I understand and agree with you that many or most 'Scientologists' buy the kind of BS you've described here, and that they then run it on their kids if they have them. However, I disagree with your statement that "their Scientology training taught them that" - From my experience, of all the "hard core" scios I knew, it was pretty well only the "trained" ones who didn't run that crap on their kids. I only know of two trained Scientologists who did, and in their case, it was more to do with who they were in the first place and their willingness to buy into 'group think'. What you're talking about is abominable, and is no doubt a result of the scientology 'package'...... I'm not a FZer, and I'm certainly not a fan of Marty's, I just disagree that what you've described is the result of Scn 'training' as you you have stated. To me, it is the result of the Scn indoc, which is "effective" because of the "practices" within the CofS and "enforced ethics", not "training".

Ciao C!

I tend to agree with you with one qualification.

According to Hubbard's tech, if one studies a subject sufficiently well and long, eventually one develops enough understanding to acquire "judgment". No disagreement there!

But, there eventually comes a point in the journey on The Road To Total Freedom where the road splits in two opposite directions.

The road going left requires the forfeiture of the well-earned "judgment" but leads to significant CASE GAIN....the gaining of case in the form of stupefied indoctrination into the scriptures of L. Ron Hubbard.

The road going right requires that one retain "judgment" which is only possible by retaining some aspect of one's thinking that is NO CASE GAIN.

One of Life's many surprise endings.

I think therefore I am NCG.

I think therefore I am AN EX-SCN.

Guess that's why we are all hanging out at this cool little party called ESMB, ain't it? :happydance:
 

Kutta

Silver Meritorious Patron
When I think of some scientology derived practices I subjected my children to, I feel a great sadness. Two come to mind. When my about 10 year old daughter accidentally broke a dish belonging to her grandmother, I insisted that she 'make amends'. Despite her grandmother saying it wasn't necessary. Now I can see how humiliating and invalidating that was for my daughter, making her feel like a bad person in the eyes of her grandparents whom she loved and from whom she naturally sought love and approval, making her feel like a criminal for doing something that was entirely accidental.

When in the SO, my daughter and a friend went on an excursion, walking over the fields and dales from Stonelands to a nearby village where they bought a packet of chips. It may have been from the local pub. This caused a major PR flap and all Stonelands staff were called to a meeting to deal with this. I was required to put my daughter through ethics conditions, including working in the kitchen. (She didn't mind that too much as she and Mick the cook got on well). But for heaven's sake, those girls were doing what they should have been doing, exploring their environment, enjoying nature, and partcipating a world where children buy packets of chips with impunity.

Why oh why did I not express this view? Why did I allow myself to oppress my child instead of just loving her and supporting her good adventurous spirit?
 

Kutta

Silver Meritorious Patron
In reply to Carmel, was it because I was not sufficiently tech trained? I was a class 4 auditor. I think not. I don't understand how being highly tech trained would make one make different judgements. Many who decided on the ethics course of action for my daughter were the highest tech trained SO members at St Hill.
 

Free to shine

Shiny & Free
I am not at liberty at this time to discuss in detail how scientology affected the lives of this extended family and it's resulting devastation. What I have written so far is the tip of the iceberg. It's all too easy to think that the 'tech' wasn't applied properly in some cases, and no doubt that is true when you talk of specific auditing or "handling" of specific people. That is almost irrelevant to the big picture I am talking about, which is the end result of the application of scientology to lives and living those lives, which surely is it's purpose? To try and differentiate between the "practices" and the "training" is as silly as trying to differentiate between the "church" and snippets of 'tech'. It is all one subject, and it came from Hubbard and is the result of his ideas. No matter how one tries to pry a snippet loose from the body of the work, it is still connected and interrelated by the concepts behind it.

I'm not saying one can't have individual 'wins' from the 'tech', of course that happens. I am talking of living a scientology driven life, from birth to death, surely the stated aim of a 'cleared planet'? I am talking of people who gave up everything to become 'highly trained' and oatees, and the ramifications across the lives of many. And those trained people were also loving and caring people, who did the best they could by applying scientology to every event or issue that arose, from the birth of babies, the education of children, the angst of teenagers, the marriages, the family relationships, the illnesses that every life has, to death and "dropping the body".

This is the life that Rathbun and those who cling to the 'tech' want for all, and I am saying that it really isn't what it's cracked up to be.
 

Carmel

Crusader
In reply to Carmel, was it because I was not sufficiently tech trained? I was a class 4 auditor. I think not. I don't understand how being highly tech trained would make one make different judgements. Many who decided on the ethics course of action for my daughter were the highest tech trained SO members at St Hill.
I don't know, Kutta.....I didn't live your life, and you didn't live mine.

My Class 4 training was probably about a 20th of all the training I did. I had to work with the stuff, and make it work, and/or watch it when it didn't.

I was "working with it", and trying to survive within the ranks of the org, when I kept studying more. Maybe I was looking for stuff that I wanted to find, or needed to find, and that's why I found it.

I don't know how or why, but the more training I did, the more I seemed to find that helped my effort to try and put things right. I knew and had so much "tech" at my fingertips, that it "protected" and helped me, in so many of my endeavours and with so many of my choices which were counter to what most in the group found 'acceptable'.

I was very often or usually in trouble or out of favour with the SO Execs (I wasn't SO though). Back then, I considered that they had it "all wrong". Now I see that it was probably me that had it all wrong (in regard to how things were "supposed" to go within orgs). Whatever, it was only ever the 'techies' who backed me up, if and when I got support - They usually always agreed and at least gave me moral support, where others didn't.

For example, I had a fair bit to do with the Cadet Org (through being a Board Member of the Scn School and working with the AO, while I was ED of the Class V Org). I could see these kids being put through all sorts of crap ethics handlings and programs. It plagued me. I used what references I had, to change a lot of that, through cramming Snr SO Execs in ANZO who were responsible for it and through pushing the appropriate "tech" in their faces. At first I was in the poo for daring to cram them, so I rallied support from the SNR C/S ANZO, and the Snr C/S AO and Co, to get it sorted. We did, and those kids got out of being put through all that crap. There was a time there, when the Cadet Org kids even got to play rugby in a local comp (they'd go to training once a week, and play on Saturdays). Eventually, new Execs came along, so it didn't last forever. At least though, some "sanity" reigned for a time, and it wouldn't have if the techies didn't stand together and show these "untrained" Execs who were running the show and by-passing into the Cadet Org, that they were off the rails.

The above example, is one of many. Hey, I know a Class8, OT8 who wouldn't know his ass from his ear hole. In the main though, it was the "techies" I knew who were the ones that made a difference in regard to making things right, after "untrained" Snr Execs had come along with their "spluey" orders and/or implementations of this and that. It was the guys who were "trained" who kept things sane or at least "saner" in ANZO, in the '80's and most of the 90's, despite the fact that they were the minority and despite the fact that it always seemed to be one battle after another.

I'm not being biased here, it's the way it was in Sydney, for the two decades nearly, prior to GAT and the full on RTC by-pass in '97/'98 - It was the "trained" guys who "held the fort" for as long as they could, before it got broken down and destroyed. In Sydney (ClassV orgs, AOSH ANZO, FOLO and the CLO) the trained minority, were so often in opposition to the vast majority who weren't trained. That's a fact. It wasn't by co-incidence, IMO, and that's why I made the point which I did on this thread.
 

I told you I was trouble

Suspended animation
I DESPISE what scientology does to a family.


Ask the children of almost any staff member/zealous scientologist what they really want ... and IF they feel safe replying from the heart ... (which I doubt) I bet they would say they don't want scientology in their lives and do just want to be normal with common sense being utilised instead of 'tech' ... sadly, 'normal' and all of it's joys and imperfections are not known to most of the poor little souls still trapped in scientology, so it is pointless to ask ... I realise that, I am just very sad at the moment for the children (and parents and other family members) held hostage in the sycophantically agreed upon insanity.They observe their parents (and others) being overworked and over regged and treated like shit on a regular basis.

These unfortunate children, often become very good actors IMO ... and they can 'produce' the desired robotic 'reaction' upon request (of seniors/parents/nannies etc) ... just like the grown up scios do, in fact they are DRILLED to produce certain results!

Young children are having to survive in a place where no-one can truly relax and say what they really think or feel, as there is always a 'threat' hanging over them of some action (ethics or other) and they are all trained from birth (or the point that the parent got involved in the cult) to know that anything bad that happens ... well, they 'pulled it in' ... and on top of all that, the little ones cannot even trust each other as they are all trained to 'KR' and/or report on any 'non survival' behaviour!

Not very healthy really is it.

Luckily, (for parents) children are generally pretty forgiving and a genuine apology often goes a long way towards healing.




:storm:
 

Carmel

Crusader
I DESPISE what scientology does to a family.


Ask the children of almost any staff member/zealous scientologist what they really want ... and IF they feel safe replying from the heart ... (which I doubt) I bet they would say they don't want scientology in their lives and do just want to be normal with common sense being utilised instead of 'tech' ... sadly, 'normal' and all of it's joys and imperfections are not known to most of the poor little souls still trapped in scientology, so it is pointless to ask ... I realise that, I am just very sad at the moment for the children (and parents and other family members) held hostage in the sycophantically agreed upon insanity.They observe their parents (and others) being overworked and over regged and treated like shit on a regular basis.

These unfortunate children, often become very good actors IMO ... and they can 'produce' the desired robotic 'reaction' upon request (of seniors/parents/nannies etc) ... just like the grown up scios do, in fact they are DRILLED to produce certain results!

Young children are having to survive in a place where no-one can truly relax and say what they really think or feel, as there is always a 'threat' hanging over them of some action (ethics or other) and they are all trained from birth (or the point that the parent got involved in the cult) to know that anything bad that happens ... well, they 'pulled it in' ... and on top of all that, the little ones cannot even trust each other as they are all trained to 'KR' and/or report on any 'non survival' behaviour!

Not very healthy really is it.
Nup, bloody awful, and it will continue until all the Scn Organizations cease to exist.

Luckily, (for parents) children are generally pretty forgiving and a genuine apology often goes a long way towards healing.
Yeah, but not "luckily" for the kids. Sadly, there are many Scn kids (now young adults and older) who will never get any such apology. But worse than that, besides having to endure much and be deprived of much during their childhood, there are many who never had and will never have the love and support of their parents - This issue alone (besides all the rest), is reason enough to oppose Scn and the CofS.
 

I told you I was trouble

Suspended animation
Nup, bloody awful, and it will continue until all the Scn Organizations cease to exist.


Yeah, but not "luckily" for the kids. Sadly, there are many Scn kids (now young adults and older) who will never get any such apology. But worse than that, besides having to endure much and be deprived of much during their childhood, there are many who never had and will never have the love and support of their parents - This issue alone (besides all the rest), is reason enough to oppose Scn and the CofS.


True, it's great that that is now happening (opposition) and that we here are all basically in agreement on that.

:wink2:
 

scooter

Gold Meritorious Patron
I don't know, Kutta.....I didn't live your life, and you didn't live mine.

My Class 4 training was probably about a 20th of all the training I did. I had to work with the stuff, and make it work, and/or watch it when it didn't.

I was "working with it", and trying to survive within the ranks of the org, when I kept studying more. Maybe I was looking for stuff that I wanted to find, or needed to find, and that's why I found it.

I don't know how or why, but the more training I did, the more I seemed to find that helped my effort to try and put things right. I knew and had so much "tech" at my fingertips, that it "protected" and helped me, in so many of my endeavours and with so many of my choices which were counter to what most in the group found 'acceptable'.

I was very often or usually in trouble or out of favour with the SO Execs (I wasn't SO though). Back then, I considered that they had it "all wrong". Now I see that it was probably me that had it all wrong (in regard to how things were "supposed" to go within orgs). Whatever, it was only ever the 'techies' who backed me up, if and when I got support - They usually always agreed and at least gave me moral support, where others didn't.

For example, I had a fair bit to do with the Cadet Org (through being a Board Member of the Scn School and working with the AO, while I was ED of the Class V Org). I could see these kids being put through all sorts of crap ethics handlings and programs. It plagued me. I used what references I had, to change a lot of that, through cramming Snr SO Execs in ANZO who were responsible for it and through pushing the appropriate "tech" in their faces. At first I was in the poo for daring to cram them, so I rallied support from the SNR C/S ANZO, and the Snr C/S AO and Co, to get it sorted. We did, and those kids got out of being put through all that crap. There was a time there, when the Cadet Org kids even got to play rugby in a local comp (they'd go to training once a week, and play on Saturdays). Eventually, new Execs came along, so it didn't last forever. At least though, some "sanity" reigned for a time, and it wouldn't have if the techies didn't stand together and show these "untrained" Execs who were running the show and by-passing into the Cadet Org, that they were off the rails.

The above example, is one of many. Hey, I know a Class8, OT8 who wouldn't know his ass from his ear hole. In the main though, it was the "techies" I knew who were the ones that made a difference in regard to making things right, after "untrained" Snr Execs had come along with their "spluey" orders and/or implementations of this and that. It was the guys who were "trained" who kept things sane or at least "saner" in ANZO, in the '80's and most of the 90's, despite the fact that they were the minority and despite the fact that it always seemed to be one battle after another.

I'm not being biased here, it's the way it was in Sydney, for the two decades nearly, prior to GAT and the full on RTC by-pass in '97/'98 - It was the "trained" guys who "held the fort" for as long as they could, before it got broken down and destroyed. In Sydney (ClassV orgs, AOSH ANZO, FOLO and the CLO) the trained minority, were so often in opposition to the vast majority who weren't trained. That's a fact. It wasn't by co-incidence, IMO, and that's why I made the point which I did on this thread.

^^^^^ this ^^^^^

I agree totally with your summation of those times, Carmel.

It was only those who spent their staff time actually trying to help others who actually tried to do the right thing - the rest were busy getting the stats up no matter what the cost.

I think it wasn't so much the training we did (although that helped) as we had a desire to help others and spent our days doing (we thought) just that.

I personally helped a lot of people with the tech but I also failed to help or, even worse, did on occasion harm people with Hubbard's and especially Miscavige's methods.

I personally haven't sorted out the chaff from the wheat yet. Some of it is good. But none of it is truly predictably workable.

And that is my biggest problem with it - you just don't know what result you will get, despite the hype about workability.

It's false advertising of an inherently totalitarian system designed to enslave you for eternity.
 

Kutta

Silver Meritorious Patron
Thanks Carmel; I get it now. BTW, I didn't mean to infer that I was well trained as a class 4. I certainly didn't have a large volume of tech at my finger tips. I think it is great that you and I expect Harry and others were able to fend off some of the insanities by using your tech trained knowledge. I don't know why, but where children were involved at St Hill (in the late 70s, early 80s) there appeared to me to be no-one who was prepared to go into bat for them, using either tech, common sense, understanding, or humanity. To my shame I didn't either, except by removing them when we left in 1981.

It is because of that shame and the hurt a mother feels when her child is hurt that I posted my personal tale, in the hope that by sharing, some of that might be exorcised. It hasn't, but maybe it is a process.

The good news is that my daughter's spirit was not crushed, though she had quite a bunch of stuff to deal with in later times that stemmed from the strife she ran into. She is now a most highly spirited, feisty adult and mother to 3 amazing kids.

BTW, also, among the highly trained personnel at Stonelands at that time, we had Richard Reiss, now I believe the top CS at Flag. He and his wife Carla had a baby and a toddler in the nursery. My recollection is that they kept very much to themselves and neither they nor the other techies involved themselves in correcting outnesses in the org or at Stonelands, apart from the cramming of auditors or students. Also, there was probably a heightened sensitivity to 'out PR' at St Hill due to the presence of GO staff who tended to laud it over us mere SO members.
 
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Veda

Sponsor
Someone with a wide range of familiarity with the "tech" of Scientology, could - if he/she had good intentions - steer others in a positive direction by selectively referencing the saner pieces of "tech." Scientologists, particularly "organization types," love exact LRH references, especially if accompanied by a dose of official-sounding Scientology lingo & proper formatting in writing.

Nonetheless, the subject was a "package deal," and that "package" http://www.forum.exscn.net/showpost.php?p=19183&postcount=1 was likely to eventually assert itself, despite the efforts of some.

The "tech," IMO, is a mixed bag. For example...

Includes 1961 Children's Security Check:

http://www.clambake.org/archive/books/isd/isd-5i.htm

Some Wikipedia info on Sec Checking:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Scientology_Security_Checks
 

Carmel

Crusader
Thanks Carmel; I get it now. BTW, I didn't mean to infer that I was well trained as a class 4
Hey, I didn't think that ya did. :)

I think it is great that you and I expect Harry and others were able to fend off some of the insanities by using your tech trained knowledge.
Yeah, the likes of Harry and Peter Sparshot and Jan Hill and David Graham (mate), set such a good example for us 'youngins' coming up the line, and while they were still around, they gave us so much support in more ways than one.

I don't know why, but where children were involved at St Hill (in the late 70s, early 80s) there appeared to me to be no-one who was prepared to go into bat for them, using either tech, common sense, understanding, or humanity.
Well, sadly, that has been the "norm" within the ranks of the CofS.

To my shame I didn't either, except by removing them when we left in 1981.
Hey, ya left and took them with ya - good on you! :thumbsup:

It is because of my shame and the hurt a mother feels when her child is hurt that I posted my personal tale, in the hope that by sharing, some of that might be exorcised. It hasn't, but maybe it is a process.
I probably didn't help, in that regard, by going off on a tangent. I'm sorry.

Crikey, to this day, I still feel regret and guilt over certain things, in regard to my kids. I wasn't SO, and they didn't get the usual crap run on them, but from my pregnancies with them and forward from that, they usually or mostly had a mum whose mind was elsewhere. It's my biggest 'personal' regret, over Scn. I feel I was robbed, and that they were robbed. Yet, the boys don't have it as a problem. I'm sure your daughter doesn't have it as one now either.

As a Mum, it's those things that can eat away at ya, 'cause your kids are the most important thing to you in the world. Back then, I'm sure that ya did support her and love her as best you could, given your circumstances, just as most of us did. My angst regarding my kids, and regarding a period there when I was in another world that didn't include them in an emotional or spiritual sense, has certainly been a problem for me, but has waned over this last year or so. I'm sure your angst over your daughter will for you too, simply because you're looking at it. I am looking at it these days, sorta like this........yes, I regret, but I can't turn back the clock, and if things were different, then my kids wouldn't be who they are today, and today, I have three young men who I wouldn't have any other way.

They're our babies, but they're always tougher, stronger, more capable, loving, accepting and resilient than we usually give them credit for, I believe. I don't think it's ever as bad as the hearts of mums would have us believe.

Don't forget ta give yourself a pat on the back for all the love and support you did give your daughter, and for contributing to who she is today.......maybe even go and have a yak and a cry and a laugh with her about it.

All the best with it, Kutta. :)
 

scooter

Gold Meritorious Patron
...BTW, also, among the highly trained personnel at Stonelands at that time, we had Richard Reiss, now I believe the top CS at Flag. He and his wife Carla had a baby and a toddler in the nursery. My recollection is that they kept very much to themselves and neither they nor the other techies involved themselves in correcting outnesses in the org or at Stonelands, apart from the cramming of auditors or students. Also, there was probably a heightened sensitivity to 'out PR' at St Hill due to the presence of GO staff who tended to laud it over us mere SO members.

Richard arrived at Flag after Alain Cartuzinski(?) was RPFed in late 87-early 88 and very much kept to himself there too - he certainly wasn't the extrovert that many of the other top techies were at FSO like Edie Lundeen or Carolyn Webb. He didn't seem to know how to just chat socially from what I observed of him. Nice enough guy and I certainly had no problems with him as Senior C/S FLB at the time - he seemed competent as his job. But I was a mere student so I have only a few interactions with him to go by.

But there were some horror stories of neglect from the time I was there with regards to the way the kids of SO members were treated generally - like they were "just Dev-T" for production. But there were also a lot of crew I knew who cared deeply for their kids and did the best they could for them.
 

Lulu Belle

Moonbat
Lulu,

I posted on his blog multiple times and he treated me well until I questioned his idea that fair gaming began with DM. I tried reasoning with him but Marty is more than confused. He has made it clear that the only people he will listen to, or apologize to for any hurt or fairgaming he caused is if they are firm believers of scientology and LRH.

He considers any critic or protestor or Ex outside of that mindset to either be 'working for DM' or to be stupid and not worth dealing with. In my opinion, Marty is still trying to be Inp General RTC. He stated in the SP times videos that he left because he argued with DM for not wearing his hat. He believes that Miscavige failed to wear his hat in preserving the trademarks, the very trademarks he is now using, in violation of trademark law! LRH is his God. There's no changing that at this time and probably not in the foreseeable future.

I had a similar experience with him.
 

Kutta

Silver Meritorious Patron
Thanks again for that Carmel. Much of the time I also think that our family's experience and survival in the CoS gave us all a certain strength, hard to define, but which has helped in our lives. Hell, if that couldn't kill us off, there's not much we can't survive! It was reading HH's post about the family and the burglar that set me off again. I remembered my daughter's face and the hurt etched on it when I did those things. We do talk about it and have a laugh. My daughter though probably has more yet to deal with still. She took a look at the kids ESMB but couldn't hack it; couldn't sleep that night, just too awful for her to read what other kids had been through - much worse than she experienced. But both my kids, grown up now, are doing great and I'm very proud of them. They have that indefinable strength, can hold their position with a certain aplomb, and certainly appreciate freedom and know how to enjoy life.
 

HelluvaHoax!

Platinum Meritorious Sponsor with bells on
Thanks again for that Carmel. Much of the time I also think that our family's experience and survival in the CoS gave us all a certain strength, hard to define, but which has helped in our lives. Hell, if that couldn't kill us off, there's not much we can't survive! It was reading HH's post about the family and the burglar that set me off again. I remembered my daughter's face and the hurt etched on it when I did those things. We do talk about it and have a laugh. My daughter though probably has more yet to deal with still. She took a look at the kids ESMB but couldn't hack it; couldn't sleep that night, just too awful for her to read what other kids had been through - much worse than she experienced. But both my kids, grown up now, are doing great and I'm very proud of them. They have that indefinable strength, can hold their position with a certain aplomb, and certainly appreciate freedom and know how to enjoy life.

Kutta, I hear ya! Still got kids deep "in" but salvaged my youngest who never set foot on the sacred burial ground known as the Church of Scientology.

With your permission I'd like to submit your post as a COMMENDATION REPORT to my OutEthics Folder! :happydance:
 

Kutta

Silver Meritorious Patron
WOW! cool! wicked! Never had a commendation report before! Ta very much HH. Here's to your other kids surfing right out on the first exodus tsunami!
 
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Voltaire's Child

Fool on the Hill
I had a similar experience with him.

How is that bad or abusive treatment?

It may be head in the sand type stuff, but saying or implying it's BAD treatement seems skewed.

Lots of people here express disagreement and even cut other people off when they don't want to talk to them anymore. How is this any different?
People DO that. Sometimes it's right, sometimes it's wrong, but no one person has a corner on that particular market.
 
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