Rathbun's book - REVIEWS!

PirateAndBum

Gold Meritorious Patron
That is true ONLY as regards the CONTENT of a mind. The statement is not true as regard the FUNCTIONING of any mind (and/or a unit of awareness).

How any mind does what it does can be analyzed. These things can be studied. These things can be monitored and observed. Of course, the best place, and actually the ONLY place where you can observe such things in their own arena, is in YOUR OWN MIND. :ohmy:

For instance, one can analyze how a mind creates concepts, how these exist as ideas, and how these ideas relate to the experiences of the world and universe out there. General Semantics explored that a bit.

One can analyze how ideas exist at different levels of abstraction.

One can analyze how the subjective does what it does.

Most people get caught up in the details and content of ones own mind. Few actually ever aim to watch it in action - sort of like a spectator. Though, to do that requires some determination, some putting of a distance between "you and your mind", and also, the very act of watching a mind CHANGES IT! :duh:

By doing so, by "personally & scientifically observing a mind in action", the experience of subjectivity itself changes! :ohmy:

Scientology NEVER encouraged that, but Buddhism and other Hindu approaches do.

That ancient saying, "Know Thyself", referred to self-examination and self-awareness. It referred to calm, intelligent, and careful "introspection". Not as "ideas about", not as dogma, not as significance, but as "quielty paying attention to the workings of ones own mind, nature and inner space".

Observation directed inward. TR0 on your MIND! The watcher watching itself doing what it does. The observer observing itself doing what any observer does.

Again, Scientology NEVER encourages THAT!

That is a major failing of Scientology as a mental and spiritual practice.

I'm sure Mark would point out the word "definitively" in his comment (and the sentence after it which you omitted.)

While one may be able to do as you state. That does not necessarily mean that every person's mind functions in exactly the same fashion.

That being said, I agree, in the main, with you.
 

OperatingDonkeyIV

Patron with Honors
I loved it - what makes it a great read is that's it makes the complex topic of Scientology, what it was meant to be and what it has become under DM - understandable for laymen like me (my time in the church was very, very shortlived, and I did not take a single step on the bridge to total financial ruin :) ).

10 bucks well spent, it seems though that some ex-scions consider Marty a wolf in sheep's clothes; on that I have obv. no reality.
 

Veda

Sponsor
I loved it - what makes it a great read is that's it makes the complex topic of Scientology, what it was meant to be and what it has become under DM - understandable for laymen like me (my time in the church was very, very shortlived, and I did not take a single step on the bridge to total financial ruin :) ).

10 bucks well spent, it seems though that some ex-scions consider Marty a wolf in sheep's clothes; on that I have obv. no reality.

OperatingDonkeyIV,

What do you think it was meant to be?

And did you think that before you read the book?

Just curious. :)
 

Veda

Sponsor
Yes, I'm pretty sure of that. His promotional action of "Gains acceptance of Scientology and its Founder" fails utterly. The Xenu story won't be PRed away.

Imo, Scientologists taking a ride on Rathbun's underground railroad should be aware of the blatant squirreling, and should immediately get off that train for their own safety. From what I've gathered, Indie tech is dangerous in many of the ways as is RTC tech. And because the Indie Bridge is less regulated, the potential for damage/abuse is possibly even greater.

I'm thinking about doing a more detailed analysis of Rathbun's book, especially the Martyworld tech, but it's probably not for this thread. If such a discussion would be helpful on this mb, I'd like to know.

Sounds like a great idea. :happydance:
 

OperatingDonkeyIV

Patron with Honors
My idea of Scientology was that from looking at the grades and the "ability gained" on each - and the fact that it was very affordable until the early 80s - it was actually a useful tool for improving one's life, though Hubbard was not the genius he claimed he was.

See also the reports of disgruntled Ex-Scions who are impressed at what gains they made.

I read the book with the intention of getting to know how the sorry state of the Co$ I witnessed came into being, know well though that Marty was part of it until 2004 or 2005.
 

Jquepublic

Silver Meritorious Patron
Yes, I'm pretty sure of that. His promotional action of "Gains acceptance of Scientology and its Founder" fails utterly. The Xenu story won't be PRed away.

Imo, Scientologists taking a ride on Rathbun's underground railroad should be aware of the blatant squirreling, and should immediately get off that train for their own safety. From what I've gathered, Indie tech is dangerous in many of the ways as is RTC tech. And because the Indie Bridge is less regulated, the potential for damage/abuse is possibly even greater.

I'm thinking about doing a more detailed analysis of Rathbun's book, especially the Martyworld tech, but it's probably not for this thread. If such a discussion would be helpful on this mb, I'd like to know.

What specifically are you viewing as him squirreling? What he wrote about the lower levels, while reworded, wasn't offbeat or other practicy and was in keeping with the materials I've studied. As far as the OT levels, his presenting his theory that they're not to be taken literally is pretty much just that IMO - his theory. Ask 20 people to define God or what it means to be a Christian and you'll probably get 20 answers, so one man saying he views it as metaphor really doesn't constitute squirreling.

I'd like to engage in an analysis thread myself, looking forward to it.
 

Veda

Sponsor
-snip-

As far as the OT levels, his presenting his theory that they're not to be taken literally is pretty much just that IMO - his theory. Ask 20 people to define God or what it means to be a Christian and you'll probably get 20 answers, so one man saying he views it as metaphor really doesn't constitute squirreling.

I'd like to engage in an analysis thread myself, looking forward to it.

It's not a theory, it's a PR line, and one that's has been used, by Scientology, to "handle" upset, ridiculing, or overly curious "wogs," for over forty years. :)
 

Jquepublic

Silver Meritorious Patron
It's not a theory, it's a PR line, and one that's has been used, by Scientology, to "handle" upset, ridiculing, or overly curious "wogs," for over forty years. :)

Ok, thanks Veda, that was "new" to me. I didn't know anything about the OT levels until just before I blew, when I read the OT III stuff online. I told my then-hubby that it was some of the worst science fiction I'd ever read and if that's what I was working toward, I was through.

So Marty's revelatory "It's a construct" is a parroting of a PR handling used in the church. Well that's just sad.
 

Veda

Sponsor
My idea of Scientology was that from looking at the grades and the "ability gained" on each - and the fact that it was very affordable until the early 80s - it was actually a useful tool for improving one's life, though Hubbard was not the genius he claimed he was.

See also the reports of disgruntled Ex-Scions who are impressed at what gains they made.

I read the book with the intention of getting to know how the sorry state of the Co$ I witnessed came into being, know well though that Marty was part of it until 2004 or 2005.

I guess, looking only at the grades and the "abilities gained," one would initially have that impression.

Was Scientology affordable until the early 1980s? Depends. Prices began being raised in 1976, by 5% monthly, and 10% in England, as I recall, until, in the early 1980s, a book such as 'Science of Survival' was priced at over 80 American dollars. I actually asked a Scientologist about that at the time, and was told it was expensive because it was a "technical book."

If you really want to know how the sorry state of the Cof$ you witnessed came in to being, there are much better sources of information.

Thanks for the response. :)
 

Veda

Sponsor
Can you point out to a "much better source" in form of a URL or the like? Thanks!

ESMB, and you're there. :)

If you can figure out how to use the new - not as user-friendly as the old - search function, then you can search ESMB's archives.

Here's the ESMB Home page: http://exscn.net

The Clambake book list: http://www.xenu.net/archive/books

Nancy Many's 'My Billion Year Contract' is good. (Sorry, no link to text.)

Neither ESMB, nor the linked books, nor Nancy Many's book, were written with the objective of salvaging L. Ron Hubbard's "good name," nor the objective of salvaging the "good name" of L. Ron Hubbard's Scientology. They are far more honest efforts than Marty Rathbun's book.

Here are a few more links:

According to Jesse Prince, former senior Scientology executive:

"Miscavige is continuing to carry out LRH's orders...

"...Miscavige is doing his best to forward Command Intention, which is contained in the huge LRH orders database of the INCOMM computer system of Scientology..." http://www.ezlink.com/~perry/CoS/Theology/jesse.htm


From Denise Brennan:

"There was a real secret body of people directly run by Hubbard."

http://www.forum.exscn.net/showpost.php?p=90246&postcount=1


From a 1986 interview of Martin Samuels, former Mission Holder, and founder of the Delphian School, from the 'Reflections' chapter of the book, 'L. Ron Hubbard, Messiah or Madman?' http://www.amazon.com/reader/0942637577?_encoding=UTF8&ref_=sib_dp_pt :


"Hubbard operated according to a couple of key patterns.

"The first pattern involved basically decent well intentioned people... no one was able to rise in the organization to a point of any real proximity to him, without being attacked and vilified...

"And of course the next person thinks he or she is immune...

"The next pattern: It's reap and rape. Hubbard would let the reins loose. He'd let people believe they really could get on with it... He'd let people believe they really could prosper to the full extent of their own ability, and enjoy the fruits of their labor.

"And, with that kind of freedom, prosperity does occur, Inevitably, though, he'd come along and rape and pillage and rip off and take what had been produced. The most dramatic example of this was '82, '83, when he 'raped' his most decent people in management along with the mission holders, and looted the entire mission network.

"And look at this pattern... He surrounded himself with absolute hooligans as 'managers'; guys who beat the shit out of people. This man, who 'is this OT, the author of Science of Survival, completely able to predict human behavior', surrounded himself with ruthless people - like Miscavige - who got there because they emulated Hubbard's savagery. They emulated his total willingness to completely break, use, and discard another person.

"And then after their hands were so bloody - and the only reason their hands were bloody was that they were doing what Hubbard wanted - when it finally started to get to the point where it couldn't be tolerated by people anymore, Hubbard wiped them out. Then he said. 'My God! I didn't know!' Scapegoat. He even did that to his own wife, who went to jail in his place..."


David Miscavige is the latest scapegoat.


Jesse Prince, Legal Declaration, 1999: http://lermanet.com/reference/Jesse2inWoller.htm


Excerpt from the 1991 David Mayo article on Clear. http://www.ivymag.org/iv-01-02.html (David Mayo is an Ex Scientologist, Class XII and former Senior C/S International, who knew Hubbard on the ship and, for a time, around 1978, lived at Hubbard's residence and worked with Hubbard):

"It was PR and marketing considerations that led Hubbard to decide that certain people were 'clear' at a certain point..."

And from author Russell Miller's interview of David Mayo from August 1986.

http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/Library/Shelf/miller/interviews/mayo.htm

"What worried me was that I saw some things he did and statements he made that showed his intentions were different from what they appeared to be...

"He told me he was obsessed with an insatiable lust for power and money. He said it very emphatically. He thought it wasn't possible to get enough. He didn't say it as if it was a fault, just his frustration that he couldn't get enough."


The below post and its thread includes a brief discussion of a means of searching ESMB through google. Perhaps it will help.

Google isn't too bad if you use the "site:exscn.net" limiter, although I don't know how to limit the search to one person's posts only.

Paul


Happy hunting!
 
I'm sure Mark would point out the word "definitively" in his comment (and the sentence after it which you omitted.)

While one may be able to do as you state. That does not necessarily mean that every person's mind functions in exactly the same fashion.

...

Quite right. The key word is 'definitively'. One can analyze mind from many perspectives and gain insight accordingly, but none of which are completely successful as a comprehensible reduction.


Mark A. Baker
 

Veda

Sponsor

Above is an improved presentation of the crude 1998 Scan of the rush-to-print 1987 1st edition of 'Messiah or Madman? Later editions are recommended, however there are no Internet available scans of these. If one really wants to read the book, it's suggested that a 2nd or 3rd edition copy be obtained. Sometimes, the book can be found in libraries.


Paul's Rabbit e-books: http://www.paulsrabbit.com

About 'Hisself' by 'Face', currently being assembled by Paul.

I collected up what I considered to be the important posts a year or so ago, and did some editing of them. But the job isn't finished. I didn't think Face had finished writing the series. What struck me most about Face's posts was the insight it provided into Hubbard's character, which I hadn't gained from elsewhere.

I just looked at what I had a few minutes ago. My title for the whole series, which is really about Hubbard, if I ever get to finish the job, is Hisself.

Paul


And just for the heck of it:

The 'Religion/Spirituality after leaving Scientology' thread:

http://www.forum.exscn.net/showthread.php?21354-Religion-Spirituality-After-Leaving-Scientology
 

Alle G

Patron with Honors
There is my ‘wog’ review on M Rathbun’s book ‘What is wrong with scientology?’
The book is very interesting and informative because it explains, unlike other books, what scientologists actually do. I rank this book second best after Cyril Vosper’s ‘Mind benders’.
Rathbun also shows that scientology does NOT work.
In the chapter ‘Write and wrong’ there is an example of the soldier who during the battle made a postulate ‘To fight to death’, which possibly helped him to survive. After the war this postulate became contra-survival, but it sits in his unconscious mind and continues to influence the soldier, so he ends up in prison. Scientology can help because it uncovers hidden postulates and switches them off. The postulate is only potent because it is unsuspected, unseen and unreviewed.
In the chapter ‘Reversal’ Rathbun describes how in the early 60s Hubbard was at war with psychiatrists, journalists, authorities. He also made postulates similar to the soldier’s ‘To fight to death’ – Smash the suppression, Obliterate the enemies, Attack, never defend, All critics of Scientology committed crimes etc. In the following decades these postulates became contra-survival, but Hubbard and his church continued to blindly obey them. These contradictory and largely insane postulates were published in 1000 pages of his policies, were never reviewed or updated or switched off, because all this time scientologists were busy looking into the dark recesses of their minds.
If you mix half a jar of strawberry jam with half a jar of sh*t you will get a full jar of sh*t, not of strawberry jam. Hubbard invented a valuable alternative psychotherapy (strawberry jam) and mixed it with absurdities (OT, origin of universe, tone scale, axioms, ethics, Xenu etc) with sad results. Why was not he content with psychotherapy? My guess: some people want many children to ensure their own continuation and immortality, they want to pass on their genes to the future, Hubbard wanted to immortalise his mind by cloning the minds of his followers, so they all think, speak and act like him. He almost achieved such an extravagant goal.
Non scientologists will stay away from any scientology after reading this book, many people may want to join a sinister cult, but not a ridiculous one.
I will post it to Amazon too.
 

Veda

Sponsor
There is my ‘wog’ review on M Rathbun’s book ‘What is wrong with scientology?’
The book is very interesting and informative because it explains, unlike other books, what scientologists actually do. I rank this book second best after Cyril Vosper’s ‘Mind benders’.
Rathbun also shows that scientology does NOT work.
In the chapter ‘Write and wrong’ there is an example of the soldier who during the battle made a postulate ‘To fight to death’, which possibly helped him to survive. After the war this postulate became contra-survival, but it sits in his unconscious mind and continues to influence the soldier, so he ends up in prison. Scientology can help because it uncovers hidden postulates and switches them off. The postulate is only potent because it is unsuspected, unseen and unreviewed.
In the chapter ‘Reversal’ Rathbun describes how in the early 60s Hubbard was at war with psychiatrists, journalists, authorities. He also made postulates similar to the soldier’s ‘To fight to death’ – Smash the suppression, Obliterate the enemies, Attack, never defend, All critics of Scientology committed crimes etc. In the following decades these postulates became contra-survival, but Hubbard and his church continued to blindly obey them. These contradictory and largely insane postulates were published in 1000 pages of his policies, were never reviewed or updated or switched off, because all this time scientologists were busy looking into the dark recesses of their minds.
If you mix half a jar of strawberry jam with half a jar of sh*t you will get a full jar of sh*t, not of strawberry jam. Hubbard invented a valuable alternative psychotherapy (strawberry jam) and mixed it with absurdities (OT, origin of universe, tone scale, axioms, ethics, Xenu etc) with sad results. Why was not he content with psychotherapy? My guess: some people want many children to ensure their own continuation and immortality, they want to pass on their genes to the future, Hubbard wanted to immortalise his mind by cloning the minds of his followers, so they all think, speak and act like him. He almost achieved such an extravagant goal.
Non scientologists will stay away from any scientology after reading this book, many people may want to join a sinister cult, but not a ridiculous one.
I will post it to Amazon too.

Good review. I think though that you might be over optimistically reading more objectivity into Marty's critique of Hubbard than is there.

IMO, most of Hubbard's enemies were products of his imagination. And it started long before the 1960s.

A small sampling of Hubbard's early writings:

"Living is a pretty grim joke, but a joke just the same. The entire function of man is to survive. Not for 'what' [any ideal] but just to survive... I turned the thing up [the 'dynamic principle of existence: Survive!'], so it's up to me to survive in a big way.

"Personal immortality is only to be gained through the printed word, barred note, or painted canvas or hard granite [or stainless steel]. Foolishly perhaps, but determined none the less, I have high hopes of smashing my name into history so violently that it will take a legendary form even if all the books are destroyed. That goal is the real goal [hidden agenda] as far as I am concerned. Things which stand too consistently in my way make me nervous.

"It's a pretty big job. In a hundred years Roosevelt will have been forgotten - which gives some idea of the magnitude of my attempt...

"Psychiatrists, reaching the high of the dusty desk, tell us that Genghis Khan, Napoleon, and Alexander were madmen. I know they're maligning some very intelligent gentleman...

"I can make Napoleon look like a punk."


L. Ron Hubbard, 'Excalibur' letter, from 1938


"Your writing has a deep hypnotic effect on people and they are always pleased with what you write."

"Your psychology is advanced and true and wonderful. It hypnotizes people. It predicts their emotions, for you are their ruler."


L. Ron Hubbard, from his "Affirmations', 1946


In October 1950, Dr. J.A. Winter, who had written the 'Introduction' to 'Dianetics, The Modern Science of Mental Health', resigned in protest from the Hubbard Dianetic Foundation. He described the ideals presented by Hubbard as "lip service."

In March of 1951, John Campbell, publisher of 'Astounding Science Fiction', also resigned in protest against the "cult" of Dianetics.

Meanwhile, Hubbard was busy writing letters to the FBI describing many of his former Dianetic associates as communists and communist sympathizers.

"No rights of any kind... Dispose of quietly and without sorrow." L. Ron Hubbard, 'Science of Survival', 1951

Hubbard's bizarre letters to the FBI, accusing other, including his wife, of being communists, during the 1950s

"Ruin utterly." "Always attack." L. Ron Hubbard, 'Manual on Dissemination of Material', 1955


"Dianetics and Scientology are self-protecting sciences. If one attacks them one attacks all the know-how of the mind. It caves in the bank. It's gruesome sometimes.

"At this instance there are men hiding in terror on Earth because they found out what they were attacking. There are men dead because they attacked us - for instance Dr. Joe Winter [wrote Introduction to 'DMSMH', and the book, 'A Doctor's Report on Dianetics' with an Introduction by Fritz Perls]. He simply realized what he did and died. There are men bankrupt because they attacked us - [Don] Purcell, Ridgeway, [publisher of 'DMSMH'] Ceppos." L. Ron Hubbard, 'HCO Manual of Justice', 1959

"Find or Manufacture enough threat." L. Ron Hubbard, 'Department of Government Affairs', 1960

"Have you ever had unkind thoughts about L. Ron Hubbard?" L. Ron Hubbard, Security Check, 1961

And jumping ahead...

"I am not interested in wog morality... I can make Captain Bligh look like a Sunday School teacher," L. Ron Hubbard, 'Discipline, SPs and Admin', 1969


Welcome to ESMB. :)
 

HelluvaHoax!

Platinum Meritorious Sponsor with bells on
Tony O's REVIEW of the book just published......

...

I didn't notice any new thread on Tony O's REVIEW of Marty's book at the Village Voice thread, so I am putting it here.

http://blogs.villagevoice.com/runninscared/2012/07/scientology_marty_rathbun_manifesto.php#comments

I posted this in the Comments section...

Magnificent review! I suspect that vastly greater numbers of people will be helped by your REVIEW of the book than the book's authors are postulating their apologia will "handle".

Tony, you understand Scientology at levels the knowing-how-to-know-thetans simply don't know. Thanks!
 

Veda

Sponsor
Re: Tony O's REVIEW of the book just published......

...

I didn't notice any new thread on Tony O's REVIEW of Marty's book at the Village Voice thread, so I am putting it here.

http://blogs.villagevoice.com/runninscared/2012/07/scientology_marty_rathbun_manifesto.php#comments

I posted this in the Comments section...

Excellent. Finally, a review from a "wog"!!!

Think I'll transfer the first several posts from the 'Tony Ortega finally review Marty's book' thread (in "Breaking News' section):


Gosh - I almost thought it would never happen, Now that TomKat's dust is settling and Karen's son has been put to rest, Marty's off the back burner and into the fire....

http://blogs.villagevoice.com/runninscared/2012/07/scientology_marty_rathbun_manifesto.php#more

Can't wait for Marty's response, lol!

Skip Press weighs in:

Two posts re. the review from the 'MartyWorld Tech' thread:
 

Veda

Sponsor
Re: Tony O's REVIEW of the book just published......

...

I didn't notice any new thread on Tony O's REVIEW of Marty's book at the Village Voice thread, so I am putting it here.

http://blogs.villagevoice.com/runninscared/2012/07/scientology_marty_rathbun_manifesto.php#comments

I posted this in the Comments section...

This is the thread started by Mimsey:

http://www.forum.exscn.net/showthread.php?27877-Tony-Orterga-finally-reviews-Marty-s-book&p=706457


Continued...

From a 1981 Clearwater Sun Article by none other than Richard Leiby, now of the Washington Post.

sun02a.jpg

SOURCE LINK

From United States District Judge Leonie Brinkema from RTC vs Lerma LINK



regards,
arnie lerma

Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities
Voltaire (1694 - 1778)

I just read the entire review and, IMO, it was an pretty insightful review.

A few comments (some minor):

It was Hubbard who initiated the "rhythmic swing" of the needle (3 swings in other words) as the only valid definition for an FN. That was 1978. There's an entire thread on ESMB about this.

Sec Checks began in 1961 not 1965, and were used abusively by Hubbard, not only to make "round ball bearings" out of Scientologists, but to collect black-mailable information.

Rathbun really had no choice but to address the "Xenu problem" in the book, and Ortega, I think, does not fall for Rathbun's attempted PR "handling" of it. (At least not entirely.)

Ortega sees that Marty is "tap dancing" and - in effect - double talking, but is impressed with some of the book, in that, as he sees it, the book will be a breakthrough for about-to-be-out CofS Scientologists, etc.

Unfortunately, the book contains enough ambiguity and weasel-wording to create even more confusion in the minds of recent escapees from the CofS - and one more important point:

IMO, this book was also written to influence people like Tony Ortega, with, for example, such nonsense as "Incident 1" of OT 3 is a "metaphor."

I hope Ortega realizes that he, also, has been "targeted" for "handling."

Fortunately, I think Rathbun's "handling" of Ortega has been only slightly effective - but not completely ineffective. I would say it's about 80% ineffective. However, that 20% effective is a bit worrisome. (But not too worrisome. :))

As we know, Scientology fights long wars of attrition.

A 20% "handling" (of a "wog opinion leader") is still a "handling."

I wonder if Rathbun will publish this review on his blog?

And, to be optimistic, maybe Ortega's review will affect Rathbun in a way that Rathbun doesn't expect. Maybe it will nudge along his (stalled) "deprogramming."

Or, maybe Rathbun will simply become more clever, more slick, sneakier, and sharpen his use of angles and ploys. If so that would be a disappointment.

Time will tell.

And then, of course, there is The South Park Episode about XENU and Tom Cruise in the Closet..



Click above to load a 36 Meg Real Media version, or put full url below into browser, enjoy!

http://www.lermanet.com/SPEpisode912TrappedintheCloset.rm



Thanks a bunch for puttin' this up, Mimsey. :thumbsup:

I read TO's Review today and, as usual, it's a well crafted, thoughtful and first class professional piece of work.:clap:

I also read some of the comments and was gonna make a comment here once someone put up a Thread about it that folks should read what Skip had to say.:yes:

I knew Skip in passing...a sure enough fine feller...and IMHO he's sure enough tellin' like it was and is.
:coolwink:

Face:)
 

Gadfly

Crusader
Above is an improved presentation of the crude 1998 Scan of the rush-to-print 1987 1st edition of 'Messiah or Madman? Later editions are recommended, however there are no Internet available scans of these. If one really wants to read the book, it's suggested that a 2nd or 3rd edition copy be obtained. Sometimes, the book can be found in libraries.

One can often find a copy on eBay (for not too much money):

L. Ron Hubbard: Messiah or Madman?, Bent Corydon

Or, on Amazon:

L. Ron Hubbard: Messiah or Madman
 
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