ESMB has entered archive mode. All posts and threads that were available to the general public are still readable. The board is still searchable. 

Thank you all for your participation and readership over the last 12 years.

If you want to join in the conversation, please join the new ESMB Redux at

Real Scn Fair Game

Discussion in 'Fair Game and Disconnection Victims' started by Veda, Sep 12, 2019.

  1. Veda

    Veda Sponsor

    Usually, I put "brainwashing" in quotes since it's a slang term.

    The overarching term is mind manipulation.

    Is the Sea Org a cult?

    What do you think of the Scientology Inc. smear site?

    How long has he been out of the Sea Org?
    Phil Rogers likes this.
  2. Caroline

    Caroline Patron Meritorious

    I think that we can safely use Hubbard's terms for brainwashing when we talk about Scientology and Brainwashing. It is useful to know, but necessary to reject, the cult-biased academics' redefinition of the word.

    I also think it would take skilled professionals and a legal setting to make an informed judgment on a brainwashing defense. In any case, making such a judgment is outside of the Scientologists' skillset, at least to Class 9, Ethics Specialist, etc., which I was on the inside.

    But, we do not have to judge Aaron Smith-Levin's mental condition, disposition, etc., in order to criticize his actions and the behaviors of the Aftermath Foundation and to warn people who could be adversely affected. He is acting in a professional adult capacity, and not being either professional or adult in this matter.
  3. Veda

    Veda Sponsor

    I didn't like the video either, but I lack information, and need more to make a final judgement.
    Tanchi and Phil Rogers like this.
  4. Phil Rogers

    Phil Rogers Patron

    If you don't have the facts or evidence necessary to make a judgment about it then you don’t have enough information to have an opinion about it at all do you?

    You can’t say that she’s lying or batshit crazy (which she clearly is) and also say that what Aaron and Ron said was inappropriate.

    So if you say that what they said was inappropriate then you are saying that what Christy says is plausible. But you admit you don’t have the data to make such a determination.

    So why judge them at all when you clearly don’t know?

    Watching people fall over themselves to defend a lying con artist is rather amazing.

    How is the Aftermath Foundation supposed to be responsible for this lying con artist who’s been telling this nonsense fiction story for over three years?

  5. Phil Rogers

    Phil Rogers Patron

    How is the Aftermath Foundation supposed to “help” a lying con artist selling a fictional story and defrauding the Scientology watching community?

    Is your complaint that they didn’t get her baker acted or something? Her entire story is absurd and tons of people have tried to verify it.

    You sound like you just have an ax to grind.
  6. Alanzo

    Alanzo Bardo Tulpa

    The Aftermath is supposed to say "We have tried to verify Christy Wood's story and have been unable to do so".

    Is that so hard?

    Telling her to look into a mirror and say "I'm nuts"?

    Calling her 'crazy' repeatedly and anyone else who has heard her story for the first time - that they're nuts too?

    Come on. You really need me to tell you this?
  7. Phil Rogers

    Phil Rogers Patron

    Oh don’t be such a pussy. She’s a lying fraud and con artist. John McGhee had just broadly promoted her BS story and the sheep who watch Scientology were falling for it.

    I don’t see any reason the Aftermath Foundation should have soft-peddled denouncing her story.

    For that matter, now that I think about it, the Aftermath Foundation didn’t say anything about it. Aaron did. You know, not every word uttered by Aaron is “from the Foundation”. Tons of people in the Scientology community had debunked her story. You don’t have to work with the Foundation to know that. Aaron is a member of the former Scientology community. He mentioned that he had seen an email from her and she couldn’t answer basic questions about it. But tons of people had also already debunked her story.

    Why do you think Aaron is the spokesperson for the foundation? Just because he’s the only one with a YouTube channel? He’s not even the head of the foundation. Do you even know that?

    Don’t you think Luis Garcia or Mike Rinder would be the spokesperson?

    Your confusion seems to be you assume Aaron was speaking FOR the Foundation.
  8. Phil Rogers

    Phil Rogers Patron

    You criticize people for believing Shelly is missing but you defend people who believe the David-Miscavige-Int-Base-Child-Sex-Prisoner Story.

    I think you have a screw loose.
    tesseract likes this.
  9. Helena Handbasket

    Helena Handbasket Gold Meritorious Patron

    I've never liked that term. It sounds racist.

    I would prefer, if we must have a term at all, Reverse Dianetics (or Reverse whatever).

    tesseract likes this.
  10. Dotey OT

    Dotey OT Cyclops Duck of the North - BEWARE

    My point is this, it's very simple. Yet another hijacked thread. Think what you want to think, analyze however you want to, declare confirmation bias all you want. Just another hijacked thread.


    Anyone passing by would notice this. You wouldn't notice this if you were in the middle of trying to show the fallacies of the arguments. You would not object to this if you were trying to achieve the newly stated purpose.

    Take a look at other threads. All this has been since the first week of August.

    When I was newly out, I shopped around for a place to listen and learn. I stopped at Alanzo's blog, read a bit. Noticed the oddness and a elected to not stay because of that oddness.

    Now that oddness is here at ESMB to stay, well for another 16 days and whatever.

    So sad that this is the way it is now.
    Bill likes this.
  11. Emma

    Emma Con te partirò Administrator

    Says who? You? I think it's up to me to decide the purpose of ESMB, not some anonymous person who joined last year.

    You seem so easily offended by opposing views. Have you always gotten your own way? Are you an only child? Jeez.
    Little David likes this.
  12. Enthetan

    Enthetan Master of Disaster

    I would find it credible that DM would keep a sex slave. He just seems to have that sort of "needing to dominate" personality. I doubt he would have a sex slave bear kids for him. I also think the sex slave would more likely be male.
    tesseract likes this.
  13. TheOriginalBigBlue

    TheOriginalBigBlue Gold Meritorious Patron

    I greatly appreciate your observation. I had been kind of holding back on Alanzo's "Anti Scientology Fair Game" thread because I'm getting tired of that agenda driven drivel and I really don't want my last memories of ESMB to be of Alanzo's crap.

    That thread title is based on a false premise or assertion. If anything it should be worded as a question like "Is there Anti Scientology Fair Game?" This speaks to the underlying motivation which seems to consistently attempt to portray critics of Scientology as being like the Sea Org and Miscavige. I say the Sea Org and Miscavige specifically because Alanzo seems to want to hold onto some innocent romanticized version of Scientology Mission life without the pernicious influence of the Sea Org almost as if LRH had nothing to do with the creation of the Sea Org or making Miscavige his protege.

    That is a "Do you still beat your wife?" thread. We are supposed to accept the notion that there is such a thing as Fair Game being inflicted on Scientology and Scientologists or other people by exes and proceed without question. This thread makes the astute observation that Fair Game is a very specific program created by Hubbard intended to destroy perceived enemies of Hubbard which is conducted by a large corporation with billions in assets and almost unlimited resources. Other people might do things that have similarities to Fair Game but that does not make it fair game. Just because some people on The Outer Banks or anywhere else express an intention or desire to harass or troll Marty or anyone else does not make it fair game and it doesn't make fair game a policy or acceptable practice at The Outer Banks or anywhere else in the ex-community. And just for the record it doesn't constitute gaslighting either. That is also a very specific thing and the meaning should not be inflated to mean anything that messes with people using head games.

    But Alanzo seems to want people to perceive critics as a monolithic entity that is dramatizing the worst characteristics of the Sea Org and Miscavige. Alanzo tries to use the moral relativism argument to again portray critics as having some misguided herd mentality. They are now a cult and therefore their position is no more nor less valid than Scientology's position. It becomes important to hammer home the concept of an Anti-Scientology Cult. If we follow this logic then the same can be said for Alanzo and he can be portrayed as a founding member of the Anti-Scientology Cult Cult. The circular logic is ridiculous. Another moral relativistic approach is to redefine Scientology as a minor religion or sub-group instead of a cult as though there is no definition for cult. Now they are not good or evil - they just are.

    All this business about us being in tribes and tribal bias is another way of saying we don't know what we know. Our experience is irrelevant and open to reinterpretation. What is really important is that we recognize that we are part of a group as Alanzo needs us to be in a group that can be defined by Alanzo and our position denigrated and mischaracterized by Alanzo so he can have his two Scientology universes intact - the fun innocent non-Sea Org Scientology and the deranged Miscavige Sea Org Scientology.

    Here's the deal. The ex-community and Scientology critics don't have to follow rules anymore. We don't need no stinkin badges ...or certs. Leah and Mike and Karen and Ron and Aaron and anyone else can do whatever they want. They can spoof Scientology and their plants or even nutters that behave like plants and if that looks like fair game or black Dianetics so what? The Jokers and Degraders policy doesn't work out here. Alanzo doesn't redefine ESMB - he has only contributed a bunch of serial threads that try to portray critics as a cult and he posts on other threads to press the same point. Like all people who try to turn ESMB to their own agenda they get defined and clarified and often bring out the best of ESMB in the process. If ESMB were to continue I think Alanzo would find himself increasingly ignored because he doesn't discuss, he preaches and I don't think anyone comes here looking for another guru. Ironically Alanzo needs us to think that Karen and Mike and Tony and others are our gurus while trying to assume the role of guru and he needs us to think of them as gurus so he can attack them as being gurus. Maybe he thinks this is clever but for a lot of lurkers out there I think it is illustrative of what Scientology does to people or what kind of people are attracted to Scientology. In either case if he is trying to defend or salvage some sanitized version of Scientology I think it is an epic fail.

    This has been a curious oddity to watch play out but once you figure it out it gets tiresome. Veda gets a commendation to his ESMB ethics folder for creating such a precision guided counter foil thread to Alanzo's propaganda thread. It's much easier to discuss these things in threads that don't get bogged down in the initial false premise.
    gbuck, Enthetan and Dotey OT like this.
  14. Dotey OT

    Dotey OT Cyclops Duck of the North - BEWARE

    Thanks for the reply.

    I think that you have the point that I am trying to make, and it's not gotten through everywhere, and is not popular. I am dismissed as the new guy, so what the hell do I know, right?

    But Alanzo IS defining what ESMB is.

    My spouse, who is the smartest person in the room when we are together, has taken her own quiet way out of the choich. She does not go on the internet looking at data, she listens to me talk about the books that I have gotten and read since we've been out. She has her own observations. And her own experiences. I hadn't spoken to her about my heartbreak of this message board and what changes that had started to show up, just over a month ago. I did have her read a new thread post by Alanzo several weeks ago, and she started to say the very same things that I was saying, without even having read or hear me say them.

    I was wrong about something for about thirty years, so I am no stranger to being wrong. I could be wrong about this. I think this is on purpose.
  15. Alanzo

    Alanzo Bardo Tulpa

    I hope that you cherish your ability to criticize me, and whoever else you want, here on ESMB as much as I cherish my new found ability to criticize who ever I want here, too.

    It's liberating, isn't it? To not have to be a cheerleader all the time?
  16. Dotey OT

    Dotey OT Cyclops Duck of the North - BEWARE

    I am sure that you have very accurate observations about our common or uncommon experience. I do think that you have studied many things deeply and certainly you have a right to talk. I do too. Until such time that you don't desire to talk or have that privilege taken away. The board operates on some nice principles.

    My point is that you seem to keep the board busy on a particular subject. If you could compare or liken it to a battle, this side would be shot up and sliced up by the occupants of our own trenches PRIOR to the attack by the other guys across the field.

    You have your right here to do so.

    I have a right to say what I'm saying.

    I will be booed by some that I respect.

    But you will go on attacking those that attack the evil Church of Scientology.

    Xenu Xenu Xenu likes this.
  17. Dotey OT

    Dotey OT Cyclops Duck of the North - BEWARE

    I would even go to say further this. If we were all concerned that the number one issue would be to end that activity which brought about such things that we all know it is capable of. I know that I do not even know the whole story by a long shot. For a long time, this has been going on. I know that I wish I would have known, it would have saved me quite a bit of trouble indeed!

    Now here is where we get caught up in the web.

    I am not right about how I look at my past involvement with Scientology.

    I haven't been around long enough.

    I don't know the truth about those that are VERY VISIBLE and who are criticizing.

    Now in a sane fishbowl, the fish don't have to get along. Everyone can say what they want, up to a point. But everyone can follow the rules. Let others talk. Fine.

    But when, this is what I see, a valuable resource in the war against Scientology has as it's activity the addressing of points which continually ask the same thing, which never really get anywhere, mostly. Valuable resources expended to what end?

    What is the end game in all this? To make sure we nail all those mean critics that have crimes of their own.

    When you search ESMB, there is a Scientology advertisement before ESMB. Seems pretty important to them.

    I looked at this site for a while before I grew the balls to post. I was in a certain state needing and looking for help. I wonder now whether I would have stopped here, the way it is now?

    No I wouldn't have.

    There are those that would dismiss this. This is what is real to me. I am my own person. I am not any of you. But I'm not sure I would have stopped. Because I just can't listen to opposing viewpoints? That you do not really know about me, as I don't really know about you. See???

    I felt like I had to say that. I don't want to post the stuff I am posting, believe that or not. I would rather be reading some of the cool stuff, and reading some of the cool threads that happen here. Maybe I should just shut up. I will watch and see.
    Last edited: Sep 13, 2019
    Xenu Xenu Xenu likes this.
  18. TheOriginalBigBlue

    TheOriginalBigBlue Gold Meritorious Patron

    I get it and I don't necessarily disagree. I would just add that I think what you are observing is a phase and if the board were to continue things would normalize. I haven't been around here nearly as long as many others but I have been around long enough to see that things like this tend to run their course. There is a lot of collective common sense here and that tends to be the more consistent influence over time.

    Emma has explained that to prevent some material from being lost in the closure she needed to remove all the bans. She also has adopted a more hands-off approach to moderation and i think there are strong pros and cons to both sides. Ultimately it is her operation and she can do whatever she wants and as something of an Objectivist I have always supported that. The alternative is no ESMB and that was never as desirable an option as an imperfect ESMB. I kind of appreciate how there has been some clarification of the conflicting agendas playing out in the ex-community and i think it's good for people to understand that there are a lot of shades of grey between being a fanatical Scientologist and completely out. We now see that there can be fanaticism about preserving "the good" in Scientology while also being fanatical about getting rid of "the bad" in Scientology - a whole new level of nuanced complexity and contradictions. I have said that Scientology attracts OC types who like complexity and I think this reinforces my hypothesis.

    Hubs would say "It's just confusion blowing off" yuk, yuk. Unfortunately it colors the final days of the board but there is a hell of a lot of excellent material here that has nothing to do with this or the final days of ESMB.
    Enthetan, Dotey OT and Xenu Xenu Xenu like this.
  19. Alanzo

    Alanzo Bardo Tulpa

    This is the thinking of those at war.

    Over time this thinking will corrode your soul.
  20. Dotey OT

    Dotey OT Cyclops Duck of the North - BEWARE

    I respect what you say here. I would say that no ESMB is a bad thing, having it is definitely good. I am doing better from much that is contained within and spoken about here.

    Last point I will make is this: Have you ever seen this before, where the Scientology smear sites show up here within the confines of ESMB, not specifically the sites, but talking points which could come from those sites itself, but written by different posters within the community? And furthered time after time now going onto two months? Relentlessly?
    Enthetan and TheOriginalBigBlue like this.