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Real v. Imaginary.

Moonchild

Patron with Honors
I have a bee in my bonnet about this whole question of imaginary incidents with respect to audting.

The comment has been made and I acknowledge, by people far more tech-experienced than myself, that it doesn't particularly matter whether an "incident" is real...i.e, in the objective sense; names, dates, places, events etc. corroborated for example by public record...gravestones, newspaper reports, "discovering" someone in PT who also remembers/validates a shared past moment, whatever...or imaginary in that the PC has created or "mocked-up" a past scenario that never actually happened in the real world.

I'm not implying that a PC would do this to deceive or mislead (that would be a different issue) but myself, I have a pretty fertile imagination...I would think many people who are attracted to Scn in the first place are similar. This carries with it the obvious danger that a PC in trying to look back-track will create a story, a set of circumstances that match whatever he's trying to get handled...seems to me it can be hard to tell the difference sometimes between mock-up and memory, particularly if the guy has pre-Scn interest in "past lives" and has made earlier attempts to deal with issues by thinking back; has anyone with a serious interest in reincarnation NOT attempted self-auditing at some point? Do Popes fly? Is the bird Catholic? :whistling:

Enter the e-meter ....My understanding of the use of this instrument is that it detects which item on a list rendered by the PC is the "real one"....at least one past auditor said to me that the real item is rarely the one the PC thinks it is, hence the meter's value.

So then, is one to take it that even with the benefits of this fabulous tool the PC might well wind up running a purely fictitious incident of his own unwitting creation? Yes I accept that if it gets charge off a case then there is perceived merit there...but at the cost of the PC building up a portfolio of bogus past-life incidents...isn't there something of a "reality-break" with the real universe there?

It's all well and good to strut about thinking you were Napoleon or Jesus or whatever, for the moment, (I was Thomas Paine :lol:) but I would expect tears before bedtime.

A good number of people in both the Co$ and the FZ seem to accept the literal truth of for example the OT3 story...and doubtless much more of that ilk. Myself I tend to the opinion that it's a bunch of scientifically-impossible horse....what would Albert Einstein say? Unless of course Xenu and his chums found a way to fold space a la "Dune" or something. Shouldn't be too scathing on that point I suppose; you never know what's round the corner. But in truth, I think that argument is the least of it. No doubt most reading this will have formed their own opinion by now anyway.

Some good few years ago now a critic of the church said something very close to this: Scientology capitalises on breaking-down its members' ability to differentiate between fantasy and reality; this leaves them open to suggestibility and influence....a blatant control-mechanism.

This is my real beef I think; maybe I'd be less concerned about the real v. imaginary issue in auditing if it weren't for its enshrinement in such a mendacious environment.


Off now to compose the "Second Age of Reason"......:D
 

gomorrhan

Gold Meritorious Patron
This is my main beef with scientology tech, actually, Moonchild, as well. That's why I agree with auditing, but not with telling people what to audit. I don't see the meter as saying that something the PC said was valid, only that their "fight/flight" reflex was engaged to some extent at the point where the needle "fell". It doesn't indicate validity, only charge. I do believe in the concept of charge, but due to the difficulties in the evolution of that term within scientology, I ascribe to another definition of that term: "repressed, unfulfilled intention". I think that repression, when contacted, activates the fight-flight reflex, because the person is trying to contact something that they have angry/fearful reactions to, or other strong emotions which activate the amygdala. I agree that the story the person comes up with while describing whatever charge they are confronting shouldn't be taken as objectively real. However, it shouldn't be challenged as not real, either, as this could cause the person to retreat from the counseling. Instead, it should be reviewed until discharged (repression lifted, full confront engaged, whether regarding something real or imaginary), and both the "auditor" and the "pc" should have that attitude regarding it.
 

programmer_guy

True Ex-Scientologist
Moonchild,

Yeah... I prefer not being deluded also. :)

(I would rather not follow Alice and the rabbit down that hole either. Sorry... I couldn't resist. <snicker>)
 

Moonchild

Patron with Honors
Kevin: I see what you're saying and it makes sense (after googling "amygdala").

"Repressed, unfulfilled intention"; yes, think you have something there.

Certainly I would agree that the auditor shouldn't invalidate what the pc comes up with..although I believe exactly that happened with myself on at least one occasion.

As regards the attitude of auditor and pc (your last sentence): I would frankly expect that of the auditor but the pc? Doesn't that depend somewhat on the pc's training/understanding level?

The ambition would be I suppose that the pc will cognite that what he's coming up with isn't necessarily literally true.

Or maybe a basic training-level should be mandatory before receiving auditing?

I can anticipate the howls of protest from the cynical about that....indoctrination etc. but quid pro quo?
 

gomorrhan

Gold Meritorious Patron
I always indoctrinate the hell out of my clientele that what we are doing is viewing charged material, whether it's real or not, and discharging it, and then just go for it. I agree it would be better if they cognited it, but I'm not taking the risk of them BELIEVING it. Unless they want to. That's their business.

And the "repressed, unfulfilled intention" bit is not MINE (although I've made it mine), it's Sarge Gerbode's.
 

Alan

Gold Meritorious Patron
Kevin: I see what you're saying and it makes sense (after googling "amygdala").

"Repressed, unfulfilled intention"; yes, think you have something there.

Certainly I would agree that the auditor shouldn't invalidate what the pc comes up with..although I believe exactly that happened with myself on at least one occasion.

As regards the attitude of auditor and pc (your last sentence): I would frankly expect that of the auditor but the pc? Doesn't that depend somewhat on the pc's training/understanding level?

The ambition would be I suppose that the pc will cognite that what he's coming up with isn't necessarily literally true.

Or maybe a basic training-level should be mandatory before receiving auditing?

I can anticipate the howls of protest from the cynical about that....indoctrination etc. but quid pro quo?

In the early pre-quickie days prior to 1965 - it was stressed that when you first contacted an area there would be a lot of dub-in (false memories).
 

Moonchild

Patron with Honors
To be fair, in my first auditing session back in 1976, the auditor did say something close to that. She said "it doesn't matter if you run something from a film you saw or a book you read" or to that effect.

However, my understanding of auditing at that time (little more than DMSMH) was other than that...and being told in session that any old crap would do, so to speak, went rather against the grain....promoted a certain degree of confusion, y'know?

As I suggested earlier, maybe a basic level of training and grasp of the subject should be mandatory before engaging upon the cans?
 

Dulloldfart

Squirrel Extraordinaire
As I suggested earlier, maybe a basic level of training and grasp of the subject should be mandatory before engaging upon the cans?

In the CofS the pc is supposed to do a full Dianetics CS-1 and Scn CS-1 before receiving auditing on Dn and Scn above a basic level. Doesn't the Dn CS-1 cover such things? Outside the CofS, I agree that the auditor should make sure the pc knows what to expect in auditing.

Paul
 

Pierrot

Patron with Honors
To be fair, in my first auditing session back in 1976, the auditor did say something close to that. She said "it doesn't matter if you run something from a film you saw or a book you read" or to that effect.

However, my understanding of auditing at that time (little more than DMSMH) was other than that...and being told in session that any old crap would do, so to speak, went rather against the grain....promoted a certain degree of confusion, y'know?

As I suggested earlier, maybe a basic level of training and grasp of the subject should be mandatory before engaging upon the cans?

Another point of view on this - when auditing, or in social interaction as well, I wouldn't be interested to know whether the incident is truth or imaginary. What does interest me is why the person cannot experience the incident, any incident, cannot have it, be it his own or someone else's - past, present or future. The rest is for the client to sort out.

The protest against the incident, any incident, with the consequences of not inspecting it and not understanding the content of, is real. When it is, see charge, or just because the person says so. On bottom of that lies a consideration, decision, whatever.

And perso I'd say there is maybe little benefit chasing after truth in past incidents. Maybe truth is in the present time ;-) or in some future.
 

Dulloldfart

Squirrel Extraordinaire
Another point of view on this - when auditing, or in social interaction as well, I wouldn't be interested to know whether the incident is truth or imaginary.

In auditing, I agree, it doesn't matter as you should be going after the charge and not the content.

But in social interaction? You tolerate people who knowingly lie to you? Personally I don't.

Paul
 

Pierrot

Patron with Honors
In auditing, I agree, it doesn't matter as you should be going after the charge and not the content.

But in social interaction? You tolerate people who knowingly lie to you? Personally I don't.

Paul

well, all right Paul. I didn't write that as "this is the way to do it" :eyeroll: Simply, in social life (meaning to me the "entertainment" part) I do tolerate anything and wouldn't attempt to change people, epecially as to how they behave.

When it comes to relationships, business or private, then it's another matter. Also when I could anticipate someone might harm another. A matter of intention.
 
Enter the e-meter ....My understanding of the use of this instrument is that it detects which item on a list rendered by the PC is the "real one"....

Real of course in the sense of the one with the associated emotional charge. NOT real in a sense of necessarily historically "true" or factual data.

Generally, as I've stated elsewhere, data may be true, partly true, or imaginary. In auditing what matters is that there is charge and that the charge is discharged. The role of the auditor is NOT to determine "truth". Doing so, is an indication of poor auditing.

A pc is free to assess truth for himself as he sees fit. Hence the old saw: "it's true if it's true for you".

It is often the case that in the course of auditing a pc will choose to to reevaluate beliefs about incidents arrived at earlier in auditing, possibly in the same session, possibly in subsequent session. This can happen at any time, including over a time span of years. It is quite common for reevaluation of the SAME incident to occur numerous times throughout a pc's auditing.

What matters solely in auditing is benefit for the pc.



at least one past auditor said to me that the real item is rarely the one the PC thinks it is, hence the meter's value.

Simply because if the pc knew which item was "correct" then in all likelihood he would have cognited already and that item wouldn't be heavily charged. Since the meter simply acts as an aid to identification of charged items, it is mostly useful in identifying areas the pc is NOT fully confronting.



Yes I accept that if it gets charge off a case then there is perceived merit there...but at the cost of the PC building up a portfolio of bogus past-life incidents...isn't there something of a "reality-break" with the real universe there?


As I understand your comment you seem to be pointing out that a side effect of "getting charge off of a case" may be to leave an individual with a personally held belief in a "non-factual" personal history and a different perspective about life in the universe than is commonly held by other people.

This is no doubt true. Many people purport to have a "spiritual" view of life but nonetheless act as though everything that matters has to do with the physical circumstances of their body's well-being and the perception of their body's status among other embodied beings.

The practice of auditing, and other spiritual technologies, often acts to undermine such considerations.

Is that a "bad thing"?

No, not really. It is in a real sense what has been intended by every human endeavor towards enlightenment. The attempt to understand oneself's & one's environment is one of the most ancient goals of mankind. Most times & places humans have considered that there IS more to existence than the limits of the physical universe.

The attempt to equate the human mind and spirit with a complexity of strictly physical interactions is a very recent event historically. Nor is there any real evidence that it is true. Traditional spiritual practices have all sought means of transcending the limits of the physical universe.



Now, what is to determine whether the pc builds up a portfolio of "bogus past life incidents"?

If you hold that past lives are wholly imaginary, as do many ardent materialists, then any past life incident would be viewed as "imaginary" whether or not it produced "case relief".

If you hold that past lives are possible, any given past life MAY be true or not true.

The indication of "charged items" by an emeter is NOT proof of the truth of any specific incident. However, neither is the indication of such "charged items" proof the life or incident is NOT true. There is no determination either way. Although, from the personal perspective of the pc, clear evidence of charge can certainly be viewed as inidicating that SOMETHING very real underlies what he is experiencing as an incident.

As per my comments above and elsewhere, most pc comments about past lives tend to be a mixture of truth, part truth, & dub-in. There are a variety of phenomena which can serve to create this mixing effect but however it occurs it does seem to be prevalent.

As an example, if I asked you what you had for breakfast last tuesday you might say: eggs, oatmeal, & toast. Whereas in fact you may have actually had: eggs & cream of wheat without toast, croissant, muffin, etc..

The eggs are "true". The oatmeal is a partial "truth". It may be a likely alteration due to misrembering as it was your habit to have oatmeal but that day you were out of oatmeal and had to settle for cream of wheat. The toast is wholly imaginary. Upon prompting from your family you are reminded about the cream of wheat and lack of toast.

In auditing the "truth" of the items is unimportant. Charge on the items is important. The goal is to get past the charge on items to confront the fundamental considerations, decisions, & postulates which the individual has which are currently acting as impediments to his well-being.


In my experience, many people at first "resist" believing anything about past lives because they seem incredible to their present "realities". Then they "reverse" and start believing wholly in any past life because resolving the charge produces great benefits. THEN they start noticing that subsequent auditing often causes them to reinterpret incidents they had previously audited (releasing even more charge in the process) causing them to conclude that "belief in past life incidents" is more complex than they previously had considered.

It is logically quite possible to NOT believe in reincarnation and audit and receive tremendous gains from "past life auditing". It is philosophically complex to maintain such a position, but it is logically arguable.

However, it is common for people who have had significant gains from "past life auditing" or other forms of "past life regression" to accept the principle of reincarnation in some form. Here again though, specific perspectives on what reincarnation may actually constitute vary. It really isn't necessarily a "simple" concept.

As an example: most schools of Mahayana Buddhism accept a form of "reincarnation" but have no associated concept of a "soul". This construct is logically rigorous but not easy to comprehend.

Usually, those who have had a significant amount of successful scientology auditing find past lives interesting from an entertainment value perspective, but not much more. At this stage, they may find the narrative element of a past life interesting but not "exciting" and they may hold it to be true or not with little care about which. The focus of their interest typically shifts from "past lives" to the specific ideas, considerations, & postulates which they consciously & subconciously are using in life and how to "resolve" any apparent conflicts in these.

They may even recognize that such things, although charged, may be distortions of "truth". They may represent something which they had not experienced themselves but that may have occurred to another if at all. They may possibly have been "implanted" in the general sense of they were made to think it happened when it didn't.

The general effect of good auditing then is to enable an individual to be MORE capable of viewing things from a variety of perspectives. Such individuals develop a "gradient scale" of reality with the "physical universe" in that they can differentiate between clearly physical universe phenomena and phenomena which just as clearly transcend the strictures of the physical universe.

Rather than creating a cognitive dissonance trying to resolve perceptual differences between the PU and the mental & spiritual realms, auditing eliminates the dissonance by enhancing insight & perception. You can see things in a PU way OR in a non-PU way.

Putting it another way, it is: clearing the m/u's associated with the consideration that a spiritual being is a part of the physical universe, and that the mental or spiritual phenomena he experiences are necessarily the same as the phenomena of the physical universe.


Mark A. Baker
 

Veda

Sponsor
To "Scientologist for life" Mark A. Baker:

Why not be honest and admit that your reasonable-sounding explanations lead to the Commodore Hubbard-era/Implantology/Xenu "Bridge."

A "Bridge" long discredited, that you continue to promote.

Your statement contains some truth, among the spin, so why not make the statement complete and include the punch line: The Standard Scientology Bridge: Hubbard's cocaine-inspired "implants," his Xenu, and all the rest, plus - of course - an e-meter that will "tell you."

Simply describe the whole of the Scientology "Bridge," instead of only the first part.

Otherwise, you're beginning to resemble a smooth talking shyster.
 

Moonchild

Patron with Honors
In the CofS the pc is supposed to do a full Dianetics CS-1 and Scn CS-1 before receiving auditing on Dn and Scn above a basic level. Doesn't the Dn CS-1 cover such things? Outside the CofS, I agree that the auditor should make sure the pc knows what to expect in auditing.

Paul


Dn CS-1....Scn CS-1; I confess I have no recollection of these. There was a list of questions including "can you accept control?"....."what sort of condition do you think you are in?"....stuff like that.

If you'd care to jog my memory on the CS-1 actions something may bubble up....:confused2:
 

Veda

Sponsor
Dn CS-1....Scn CS-1; I confess I have no recollection of these. There was a list of questions including "can you accept control?"....."what sort of condition do you think you are in?"....stuff like that.

If you'd care to jog my memory on the CS-1 actions something may bubble up....:confused2:

If you've ever been audited - beyond introductory auditing - you will have received a Dianetic C/S 1 or Scientology C/S 1. Perhaps someone else can provide a link to a copy.

Here's a Scientology Freezone Link that mentions C/S 1:

http://internationalfreezone.net/trainingpjt.shtml
 

Moonchild

Patron with Honors
If you've ever been audited - beyond introductory auditing - you will have received a Dianetic C/S 1 or Scientology C/S 1. Perhaps someone else can provide a link to a copy.

Here's a Scientology Freezone Link that mentions C/S 1:

http://internationalfreezone.net/trainingpjt.shtml


Thanx Veda....rings a faint bell; clearing terms used in audting etc.

I would indeed like to see a copy; have punted around a little myself but without success.

Puzzling...my long-term memory is generally quite good but this is a black hole, and I'm curious as to how this C/S-1 action would interplay with my considerations about back-track auditing.
 

Moonchild

Patron with Honors


Do I grasp this correctly? The two links you provided show lists of terms to be word-cleared by the pc, yes?

One list is: "Assess - Unburdening": (Dn).

The other is: "Ability Clearing - Withhold"; (Scn).

And then there's the "PC Hat".

I recall the PC Hat and something about clearing basic terms but nothing as comprehensive as the two CS-1 lists. This would have been in 1977 not 1976 as I previously stated.

Hmmm...I don't know; I really don't know. Is it conceivable that these items could have been "quickied" or simply overlooked? Beyond that, I'm baffled.

Thanks again for your assistance.
 
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