Real v. Imaginary.

[Dulloldfart]

I think they came out in 1978 as nice shiny packaged issues with all the definitions etc. as a neat attachment. Prior to that it wasn't so formal.

Paul

 

[Moonchild]

I think they came out in 1978 as nice shiny packaged issues with all the definitions etc. as a neat attachment. Prior to that it wasn't so formal.

Paul

No, it certainly wasn't so formal looking at that lot!

 

[programmer_guy]

In the early pre-quickie days prior to 1965 - it was stressed that when you first contacted an area there would be a lot of dub-in (false memories).

So, would you say that the OT III incidents are dub-in ... or not?

 

[gomorrhan]

It doesn't matter. Face the world in front of you, not the one that either did or did not happen 70 million years ago.

 

[nexus100]

It doesn't matter. Face the world in front of you, not the one that either did or did not happen 70 million years ago.

I agree, except I think one says "I will face what is in front of me". Whether that means reaching to a point 70 or 170 or 70 times 170 million years ago the issue is now because whatever attention was then extends to now and there is really only now.
Not really disagreeing, but it is a point worth making, I think.

 

[programmer_guy]

It doesn't matter. Face the world in front of you, not the one that either did or did not happen 70 million years ago.

IMO, this most certainly does matter. I disagree with you but I am not going to drag this matter out with you.

 

[Little Bear Victor]

Nobody asked for my opinion, but I'm going to give it anyways...

I went to Scientology in search of the truth.

To find out that LRH's viewpoint of it was "what is true for you is true," was a bit of a let-down, especially after he first told me it was all based on scientific discoveries.

To be told "it doesn't matter whether an incident was real or imaginary as long as you can generate charge that shows on a meter" was a bit of a let-down, especially after LRH first told me I could find out exactly what had happened, and that the exact truth (time, place, form and event) were the keys to as-isness, or overcoming the bad effects of those past experiences.

And then "it didn't matter if it was imagination?"

How the hell can anyone claim having ever as-ised anything if it didn't matter if the incident was real or not?! When at the same time it required fraction-of-second dating of the incident, down-to-the-last-detail account of it, and a perfect duplicate of the exact incident, in the same space, time, energy and form, to effect as-isness?

Then it does matter.

At least if you are in the search of what ACTUALLY happened.

Some people may not care about it.

I do.

 

[gomorrhan]

If you want to know what actually happened, you won't find it in your mind. You'll find it in the evidence created by events. If you want to know your perspective on what happened, you'll find that in your mind (so long as you were present and aware of what happened). As-isness means just that: see it as it IS. Not as it was.

 

[Good twin]

If you want to know what actually happened, you won't find it in your mind. You'll find it in the evidence created by events. If you want to know your perspective on what happened, you'll find that in your mind (so long as you were present and aware of what happened). As-isness means just that: see it as it IS. Not as it was.

So the correct cognition isn't "I was hit on the head with a brick" it's "I have a mental picture of being hit on the head with a brick".

No wonder we weren't supposed to discuss our cases or past lives or pretty much anything except LRH's own words.

 

[nexus100]

So the correct cognition isn't "I was hit on the head with a brick" it's "I have a mental picture of being hit on the head with a brick".

No wonder we weren't supposed to discuss our cases or past lives or pretty much anything except LRH's own words.

I don't agree with the concept of as-isness exactly. I think one needs to look at things enough to figure out what happened and get a handle on it. It isn't any different from putting together one of those Ikea dohickies. Plow through the confusion, see how it really works, and decide what you want to do about it, if anything.

 

[Boldgirl]

Nobody asked for my opinion, but I'm going to give it anyways...

I went to Scientology in search of the truth.

To find out that LRH's viewpoint of it was "what is true for you is true," was a bit of a let-down, especially after he first told me it was all based on scientific discoveries.

To be told "it doesn't matter whether an incident was real or imaginary as long as you can generate charge that shows on a meter" was a bit of a let-down, especially after LRH first told me I could find out exactly what had happened, and that the exact truth (time, place, form and event) were the keys to as-isness, or overcoming the bad effects of those past experiences.

And then "it didn't matter if it was imagination?"

How the hell can anyone claim having ever as-ised anything if it didn't matter if the incident was real or not?! When at the same time it required fraction-of-second dating of the incident, down-to-the-last-detail account of it, and a perfect duplicate of the exact incident, in the same space, time, energy and form, to effect as-isness?

Then it does matter.

At least if you are in the search of what ACTUALLY happened.

Some people may not care about it.

I do.

I agree with this completely.

I spent lots of money on supposedly blowing charge on dub ins-lots of it--that made me feel either no different or much worse.

why worse? because when you come to something that may be dark and scary and is dub in-you generate a whole new area of upset as you are left with confusion and no relief --then you try to tell yourself that dub in isnt real as you live with this crap and bad pics. It does matter absolutely that you spend time contacting real events and steer away from dub in, false memories etc--as it makes the being worse worse worse-only scientology auditing using a meter doesnt do that nor does it work. We all learned how to manipulate the needle, it is a piece of crap and using it as a 'guide' for charge is a joke!!!!

Listen to jason Beghe and others on videos that felt worse the further up the bridge they went. In my opinion, running into back track using a meter as aguide messes you up way more than it helps. I have never heard of a regression therapist (who has no meter) making people worse...because you only have yourself as aguide not another terminal telling you you have charge where there is dub in. You only contact real memories without a meter, not sci fi bullshit made up by a sociopath.
So now the being has a whole new problem after being guided falsely by a meter and an auditor who has no qualifications whatsoever to be doing what they do with any human being....thanks LRH you son of a bitch.

 

[Boldgirl]

I agree, except I think one says "I will face what is in front of me". Whether that means reaching to a point 70 or 170 or 70 times 170 million years ago the issue is now because whatever attention was then extends to now and there is really only now.
Not really disagreeing, but it is a point worth making, I think.

I disagree. The implanting and mind control that you are surrounded in with scientology is worse than many think. The IAS and many reg'es use implanting to make sure that you know--that 'hey you know you've been it all and done it all in the last 76 trillion years," so perhaps even when you have no idea about this or a past life --the reg'es and the books, and the indoctrination in session with 'hatting' all start to convince you that you have been around that long even though you have no reality on it yourself.

So then you go 'backtrack' in session looking for these dates that dont exist, these incidents that arent real...because the whole time you are 'auditing' you are also usually on course making sure to implant what you should see or look for or mock up.

The false info is dripped out ever so slyly in everyday life as a scientologist. As long as you are on course , reading anything Hubbard wrote, you are being fed backtrack-even a sentence here and a sentence there. Then you have to word clear this stuff you have no idea about and there goes more implanting as you read more to clear that one sentence stuck in the student hat or a basic course.

The whole thing (auditing and course together to go up the bridge) is booby trapped to trap your mind and make you worse with the bridge-especially the upper levels where you enter scifi fictionland.

So I say again and again that scn is a dangerous dangerous cult and the worst of it is in auditing and courses. I can get over an a-hole reg or a deluded scn writing a KR--but implanting of ideas reinforced with auditing on a meter that leads you down the wrong road---so so dangerous!!!!

 

[gomorrhan]

Auditing any incidents that the individual themself didn't come up with in session (not read from some book, or run because LRH said they should be) is a gross error. The meter is a good guide to where there is repressed content. That doesn't mean it can be used to find a date on an incident that never happened. Running imagination is fine, as long as it is recognized as imagination. Running imagination as if it were real is dangerous, and can lead to serious degradation of the being's ability to confront reality. Whenever an "auditor" asked me to audit something that didn't seem real to me because of charge, I stopped working with that auditor immediately afterward.

 

[gomorrhan]

I disagree. The implanting and mind control that you are surrounded in with scientology is worse than many think. The IAS and many reg'es use implanting to make sure that you know--that 'hey you know you've been it all and done it all in the last 76 trillion years," so perhaps even when you have no idea about this or a past life --the reg'es and the books, and the indoctrination in session with 'hatting' all start to convince you that you have been around that long even though you have no reality on it yourself.

So then you go 'backtrack' in session looking for these dates that dont exist, these incidents that arent real...because the whole time you are 'auditing' you are also usually on course making sure to implant what you should see or look for or mock up.

The false info is dripped out ever so slyly in everyday life as a scientologist. As long as you are on course , reading anything Hubbard wrote, you are being fed backtrack-even a sentence here and a sentence there. Then you have to word clear this stuff you have no idea about and there goes more implanting as you read more to clear that one sentence stuck in the student hat or a basic course.

The whole thing (auditing and course together to go up the bridge) is booby trapped to trap your mind and make you worse with the bridge-especially the upper levels where you enter scifi fictionland.

So I say again and again that scn is a dangerous dangerous cult and the worst of it is in auditing and courses. I can get over an a-hole reg or a deluded scn writing a KR--but implanting of ideas reinforced with auditing on a meter that leads you down the wrong road---so so dangerous!!!!

I agree. It was this, many years ago (1999), that lead me to start looking for "cosmology neutral tech", wherein there is ONLY method taught, with no introduction of scientology cosmology (whole track, attempted abortions, etc., including also all the sci fi implant stuff). I think the method, without the indoctrination, can be effective and valuable. I don't think the meter, by itself, causes additional harm, and I think it CAN lead towards things that are repressed. It's not essential, though, it's just a time-saver, if used right.

The training in scio was very useful to me, but I agree that acceptance of LRH's examples or snippets of supposed "whole track" is a booby trap. People might think that there was nothing of value gained in a session if they never "went whole track". That's a crock of shit. I've seen lifes changed by handling a SINGLE incident in this life, and then prepchecking terminals and attitudes contained in that incident.

 

[Boldgirl]

Auditing any incidents that the individual themself didn't come up with in session (not read from some book, or run because LRH said they should be) is a gross error. The meter is a good guide to where there is repressed content.

If a meter can be easily fooled as myself and so many others including all the ex SO posting agree about ad have done....then it is a very fallible device and cannot be trusted to "guide' even a dog to a buried bone.

How can you even say a meter is "a good guide to where there is repressed content" when high level CS'es have attested to how easily they have manipulated the meter to : go to the next OT level or to, get out of session, as well as to cause needle activity upon an angry purposeful thought all with the intent to fool the meter.

This is fools gold, at best.

 

[nexus100]

I disagree. The implanting and mind control that you are surrounded in with scientology is worse than many think. The IAS and many reg'es use implanting to make sure that you know--that 'hey you know you've been it all and done it all in the last 76 trillion years," so perhaps even when you have no idea about this or a past life --the reg'es and the books, and the indoctrination in session with 'hatting' all start to convince you that you have been around that long even though you have no reality on it yourself.

So then you go 'backtrack' in session looking for these dates that dont exist, these incidents that arent real...because the whole time you are 'auditing' you are also usually on course making sure to implant what you should see or look for or mock up.

The false info is dripped out ever so slyly in everyday life as a scientologist. As long as you are on course , reading anything Hubbard wrote, you are being fed backtrack-even a sentence here and a sentence there. Then you have to word clear this stuff you have no idea about and there goes more implanting as you read more to clear that one sentence stuck in the student hat or a basic course.

The whole thing (auditing and course together to go up the bridge) is booby trapped to trap your mind and make you worse with the bridge-especially the upper levels where you enter scifi fictionland.

So I say again and again that scn is a dangerous dangerous cult and the worst of it is in auditing and courses. I can get over an a-hole reg or a deluded scn writing a KR--but implanting of ideas reinforced with auditing on a meter that leads you down the wrong road---so so dangerous!!!!

Hi Boldgirl!

My experience with the past and spirituality is not confined to the COS. Where there are points of agreement between the COS viewpoint and my own they are more accidental than not. For example I never did an OT level. But I do have some experience with whatevers that seemed to be in some fashion attached to me. Are they BT's? I don't know. The COS isn't the only group by far that has notions about that, however. And the OT 3 story is ludicrous for a whole lot of reasons. But I can't say that it never happened, somewhere. This universe is a big place.
All you can do is figure out your own story. And that seems to be sufficient.

 

[gomorrhan]

So the correct cognition isn't "I was hit on the head with a brick" it's "I have a mental picture of being hit on the head with a brick".

No wonder we weren't supposed to discuss our cases or past lives or pretty much anything except LRH's own words.

That's what I think, Good Twin. Even "real" memories are often completely wrong in terms of what factually happened in the physical universe. The classic example is asking five different people what happened after a car accident they all eye-witnessed. You'll get five very different reports, all the way down to what the drivers looked like, what color the cars were, what makes the cars were, who hit who, who ran the light, etc.

What's important in any sort of auditing/processing/counseling is becoming FREE of the content of such incidents, not getting an exact accounting of that incident (although getting whatever detail they do have can help them obtain the decisions they made at that point, and the postulates/intentions that were interrupted or altered at that point, which are the real targets).

 

[Good twin]

If a meter can be easily fooled as myself and so many others including all the ex SO posting agree about ad have done....then it is a very fallible device and cannot be trusted to "guide' even a dog to a buried bone.

How can you even say a meter is "a good guide to where there is repressed content" when high level CS'es have attested to how easily they have manipulated the meter to : go to the next OT level or to, get out of session, as well as to cause needle activity upon an angry purposeful thought all with the intent to fool the meter.

This is fools gold, at best.

Manipulating the meter is extremely easy. You drill it. "Creating needle actions" is actually fun. It's a parlor trick; smoke and mirrors, like all of Scientology. (IMO)

 

[Boldgirl]

I agree. It was this, many years ago (1999), that lead me to start looking for "cosmology neutral tech", wherein there is ONLY method taught, with no introduction of scientology cosmology (whole track, attempted abortions, etc., including also all the sci fi implant stuff).

Too bad that doesnt exist in scientology-it wouldnt be scientology then--it would be noncultish behaviour

I think the method, without the indoctrination, can be effective and valuable. I don't think the meter, by itself, causes additional harm, and I think it CAN lead towards things that are repressed. It's not essential, though, it's just a time-saver, if used right.

The training in scio was very useful to me, but I agree that acceptance of LRH's examples or snippets of supposed "whole track" is a booby trap. People might think that there was nothing of value gained in a session if they never "went whole track". That's a crock of shit. I've seen lifes changed by handling a SINGLE incident in this life, and then prepchecking terminals and attitudes contained in that incident.

What temporary gains I did have had nothing to do with backtrack crap

 

[Zinjifar]

Memories are to auditing as fantasies are to jacking off.

Zinj