Really scared

[GreyLensman]

Email re MGE.

-----Original Message-----
From: WISE West US [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Wed, August 25, 2004 9:48 AM
To: JoJo Zawawi
Subject: From: Sakhi Guma re Correction to Last Email on the Consultant's Conference


Dear JoJo,

I just received information from WISE International as to the consultants'
conference that wasn't in my last email to you.

The fee for attending the conference is $400, not $500. There is an "early bird" special of $300 (though I have not been informed when the cut-off date for this price is).

And the conference will be at the Hubbard College of Administration International here in LA.

To pay for this, contact Greg Winteregg at greg@[B]mgeonline.com[/B]. He is just now setting up the Professional Consultant's Association, and will be collecting the fees for this and putting on this conference.

This conference is open to the entire WISE membership, not just consultants, as we need an army of businesspeople disseminating LRH's admin tech throughout society. And the top consultants in the WISE sector will be sharing with you their successful actions and on-Source solutions to the problems attendant to starting and running a consulting company.

I hope this information makes it more real for you to attend.

Sincerely,

Sakhi Guma
CO WISE WUS

This just sounds exactly like those Nigerian 419 scam emails.

You can just hear the sincerity in both the one above and the generic and typical 419 email:

I know this mail may meet you as a surprise but i have to start by
introducing myself to you,i am Mr. Name, a merchant in Dubai, Arab
Emirate. I have been diagnosed with Cancer which was discovered very
late, due to my laxity in careing for my health. It has defiled all
forms of medicine, Right now I have only about a few months to live,
according to my Medical Doctor. I have not particularly lived my life
so well, as I never really cared for myself but the oil business.
Though I am very rich, I was never generous, I only focused on my
business as that was the only thing I cared for. But now I regret all
this as I now know that there is more to life than just wanting to
have or make all the money in the world.

I believe when God gives me a second chance and heal me I would live
my life a different way from how I have lived it. I have sowed a seed
for my healing I have willed and given most of my properties and
assets to my immediate and extended family members and as well as a
few close friends.

I want God to be merciful to me and accept my soul and so, I have
decided to give arms to charity organizations and give succour and
comfort to the less priviledged of the Tsunami Victims, as I want this
to be one of the last good deeds I do on earth.

So far, I have distributed money to some charity organizations in
India and Malaysia. Now that my health has deteriorated so badly,I
cannot do this my self anymore. I once asked members of my family to
close one of my accounts in Saudi Bank and distribute the money which
I have there to charity organization and to the less priviledged in
Bulgaria and Sudan Africa They cashed the money but kept it only to
themselves. Hence, I do not trust them anymore, as they seem not to be
contended with what I have left for them already.

The last of my money which no one knows of is the huge cash deposit of
twenty two million dollars that I have in the Vault of a Financial
company in europe for safe keeping. I want you to collect this deposit
on my behalf and disburse it to the Tsunami EarthQuake victims in Asia
and hurrican victms in America for the less priviledged.

I will set aside 20% for you for your time and efforts. I need your
urgent reply so that I will not have to go on sourcing for a credible
person to handle this project.

If you are okey with the condition, do not hesitate to send me mail
(email} so that i can furnish you up with all the informations needed.

I wish to hear from you soon.

God bless you.

Mr. NAme

 

[Tiger Lily]

. . .

 

[whyileftscientology]

I remember Sakhi Guma since we were on the EPF together. (Michelle, the EPF is a Scientology boot camp for starting staff members.)

I also remember that he was 19 years old and he'd just come from Texas and had been in some trouble with the law (in jail?).

It would be awful interesting if someone looked up some public records in Texas and did a little background searching for the dear COMMANDING OFFICER of WISE West US!

 

[Alanzo]

I remember Sakhi Guma since we were on the EPF together. (Michelle, the EPF is a Scientology boot camp for starting staff members.)

I also remember that he was 19 years old and he'd just come from Texas and had been in some trouble with the law (in jail?).

It would be awful interesting if someone looked up some public records in Texas and did a little background searching for the dear COMMANDING OFFICER of WISE West US!

Only four posts, and look at what we have here!

The force is strong with this one!

Excellent idea, WILS!

 

[Nurse Pinch]

NP

 

[AnonyMary]

ScaredStiff

Hi ScaredStiff , try not to let yourself get too stressed out over this because your kids needs you in good form to care for them. Money comes and it goes and it's not the end all of life. That said, you are smart for acting fact but just try not to get stressed. It won't help anything.

I see that you've contacted a lawyer. Good. Ask him or her if it's possible to file for Chapter 13 (Reorganization Bankruptcy ), asking for help in getting your finances reorganized so you can pay your debt and keep your good credit. Ask that the unused funds paid out by your husband to this scientology front group be returned to the credit card companies as part of the reorganization of your debt because your husband went on a spending spree like never before and you believe it was through deceptive trade practices that this occurred and the spending was done without your consent .

NArconon and the Church of scientology have had to pay back alot of money because they accepted it and then the person went bankrupt. The trustee assigned to your case will investigate all the transfers and such to make sure the facts are what they are and has authority to file claims against the company that took the money to get back what was paid out if deemed extraordinarlly and or illegally obtained.

See Church of Scientology docs related to the Reed Slatkin caseat http://www.lermanet.com/fraud
Scn_Slatkin_CoS_Et-Al_Settlement.pdf
Scn_Slatkin_COS_Et_al_2.pdf
Scn_Slatkin_CoS_et_al_1.pdf
Scn_Slatkin_CoS_et_al_3.pdf
Read about the Hector Guevera case where CoS had to pay back his donations.
http://www.lermanet.com/fraud/Scn_CoS_USTrusteeGueveraFinalSettlement.pdf

Same with the Kasbarian Case
Scn_CoS_Kasbarian_CoSSettlementDoc.pdf

These are just a few of the many docs on lermanet.com's fraud page.
Best wishes to you.
Mary McConnell

 

[small steps]

Hi ScaredStiff,

"Your story is too outlandish for me to believe. No food in the house? Two kids and no food in the house? Excuse me, even the poorest mothers don't let it go that far,"

When my ex wife was on staff and left me caring for our children (while telling me how much of a scumbag i was for not also being on staff!) there were times when we survived on toast!!! TOAST FFS!!! when scien-wally-gy is involved .... any level of blindness and stupidity is involved! Iknow, and so do most of you!

 

[small steps]

Hi ScaredStiff,

"Your story is too outlandish for me to believe. No food in the house? Two kids and no food in the house? Excuse me, even the poorest mothers don't let it go that far,"

When my ex wife was on staff and left me caring for our children (while telling me how much of a scumbag i was for not also being on staff!) there were times when we survived on toast!!! TOAST FFS!!! when scien-wally-gy is involved .... any level of blindness and stupidity is involved! Iknow, and so do most of you!

(didn't mean to sound like i was having a go at anyone there! sorry! just stating the fact is all!)

 

[Mick Wenlock]

I wanted to thank all of you for your guidance and kind words. I spoke to an attorney that was reccomended by the state bar association. We will be meeting face to face on Tuesday. I spoke to him for a while and he's well versed in tax-law and family law. Having no experience with 'cult-like' cases
I'm not sure he's the right person but I will meet with him just the same.

My state has the 50/50 law that says he could enter the contract on my behalf even though I was present to sign. That sucks! He also discovered a second mortage taken on the house without my knowledge, using power of attorney.

Once again, I'm sure I've said too much but what the hell- at this point I really don't care.

Michelle

No Michelle, you have not said "too much". You are venting and dealing with something which is new, ominous and frightening. You should deal with it and say whatever YOU need to say in order to help yourself cope with it all. Do not worry about whether you say too much or too little.

Glad to hear you have an attorney. That your husband obtained a second mortgage without you knowing about it may have nothing to do with the whole consulting crap but it shows that he is happy keeping you out of the loop.

You are going to see and read many conflicting advices on this public board you are joining in a conversation and a battle that has been ongoing for a long, long time and it is very emotional. Many people on here have lost a lot with Scientology - family, friends money, self esteem and it is not always just friendly.

Just be yourself Michelle and you will be fine. You are getting great advice from people here.

 

[Takin Time]

Scientology & dentists & WISE & MGE

From: http://www.legalworkplace.com/09-01-19c.aspx

A Chicago dental practice will pay $462,500 to settle a class action sexual and religious harassment and retaliation lawsuit filed by the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission (EEOC).

From: http://stop-wise.biz/Sterling_Management_Systems_G.html

A Medina dentist, G. said he also nearly lost his 5-year-old practice, and his wife wound up requiring hospitalization after allegedly being held captive for more than two weeks by Scientologists in California.
...
'It was a total nightmare,' said G.. 'I hope that we can help prevent other people from making the same mistake we did. Tell people that if they get any brochures from Sterling or any other Scientology group ... to just throw them away.'

From: http://whyaretheydead.net/krasel/dec_turbyne-030592.html

Alexander Turbyne on 5/3/92: Sterling Management is good at what it does, namely, introducing people to the ideas of Scientology. The only problem is that what it does is quite different from what it says it does. If I had known this, at the introductory Seminar or through the mailings, I would have kept my money and signed up with a dental management firm and not a Scientology Recruiting Firm.

From: http://www.rickross.com/reference/scientology/videos/video4.html

Two years ago, Dentist Dr. John Finucane responded to a newsletter from Sterling Management, a church-related consultant to health professionals. He says they helped his practice, but also led him into Scientology, and kept pushing for even more money. Finucane says they charged $8,500 to his credit cards without permission. When they began phoning for more, he turned on his tape recorder.
...
They've tried to milk every penny they can out of any asset that I have, whether it's a credit card, whether it's my home, whether it's from a friend, whether it's from family. If I can get a hold of money anywhere, they would like to have that money.

From: http://www.al.com/news/birminghamnews/index.ssf?/base/news/1213085707222890.xml&coll=2

VAL WALTON, News staff writer on June 10, 2008

Alabama dentist Susan Wells says claims that Scientology was forced on former employee are baseless

Warrior [AL] dentist Susan Wells called allegations by a Pinson woman that Scientology was forced on her in the workplace "completely baseless."

Wells released a statement disputing a June 3 federal religious discrimination lawsuit filed on behalf of Cortnie Beasley. In the statement, Wells said religion played no part in Beasley's employment and dismissal.

Beasley contended in a federal discrimination lawsuit filed in Birmingham's federal court that she was fired on Oct. 22 from her job as an insurance billing clerk after she said on the "Rick and Bubba" morning show that Scientology was forced on her in the workplace.

Beasley said in the suit that on the first day she reported to work she was taken to the office's basement and was required to read a book by L. Ron Hubbard, the founder of the Church of Scientology.

Beasley, who indicated she is Baptist, said she was asked to sign a staff training waiver allowing her to be trained on the teachings during work hours.

Wells said she has employees who are of different religions, including Catholics, Hindus, Baptists and Mormons, as well as agnostics.

Her statement said she has practiced dentistry in Jefferson County for 30 years and has used for 20 years a non-religious management system that helps staff to be more organized and efficient.

From: http://ocmb.xenu.net/ocmb/viewtopic.php?p=172865&

By 'alloftheabove' on 15 Apr 2006: I have recently been employed by a dentist that is a scientologist (I am not) and subscribes to a COS managment company.

I worked two days with the dentist, making an obscene amount of money off of average working people. The coercive tactics used in selling procedures to the patients was over the top, in my opinion.

At the end of the second day of employment, I was told that the hourly wage initially agreed upon was too much and I had two weeks to find a new job. The next day, within two hours, I was told by dentist/employer that I wasn't excited enough about the management company, I wasn't in tune with the patients, and simply not liked. Amazingly, I had been employed within the same office, with the same patients (my previous employer sold the practice) and well-liked!! For six consecutive years!!

I honestly think that the consulting group had told the dentist to fire me because it happened immediately after an auditing session and phone call with a contact within this group.

The dentists that use these mgmt. companies have taken the integrity out of dentistry. It is no longer an industry that strives to maintian and promote good oral health amongst the population -- it has evolved into a money-hungry, cutthroat and greedy occupation, with the patient as the means.

From: http://www.wise.org/articles/608141508201.vm

WISE.org on 27 August 2006: MGE INCORPORATED

MGE Inc. is the highest producing LRH administrative technology delivery group internationally. Headquartered in Clearwater, Florida, MGE's commitment to STANDARD training on LRH admin tech is creating a perennial sales and delivery boom spanning several years.

Dr. Gregory Winteregg is a nationally recognized practice management speaker. He has personally lectured to and consulted several thousand dentists on every aspect of practice management and expansion, and has been published in a number of national magazines for the industry. Dr. Winteregg was an MGE client for 18 months prior to becoming a partner in the company in 1994. When he first became an MGE client in 1992, he had an average practice in a town of 10,000 people with twelve other dentists. Within twelve months of starting the MGE Program and applying LRH admin tech principles on marketing, sales and organization, his practice more than doubled (in half of the hours per week!) and ultimately became one of the top four percent (4%) of practices nationally.

Editor's note: Within two years he stopped practicing dentistry and became a Scientologist and "WISE consultant".

From: http://www.mgeonline.com/trademark.html

MGE's website: HUBBARD and SCIENTOLOGY are trademarks and service marks owned by RTC and are used with its permission.

From: http://www.laborlawtalk.com/showthread.php?t=147658

By 'lolab' on 6-27-06: Scientology "ethics" being forced by employer Pennsylvania Pennsylvania

I work for a dentist in Philadelphia and he uses L. Ron Hubbard's "management by statistics" to manage the office. The Dentist forces us to read these books and use the knowledge for our job. He holds meetings with us which are berating and reads to us from "Introduction to Scientology Ethics". I was humiliated during a meeting once. He uses all scientology terms and books in the office. We are not allowed personal calls, we don't have newspapers or magazines in the office. At the end of all communication the Office Manager writes ARC which is a scientology gesture for best wishes. I just started this job and I am scared. I am not a scientologist and I feel as though there beliefs are compromising my own. We are supposed to be going to Clearwater, FLA for team building. I did some research and Clearwater FLA is a huge scientology town. He uses a management company called MGE based out of Clearwater FLA and they are connected with scientology. What are my rights and is this harassment? I feel as though I am being psychologically harassed. Help!

and

By 'Anonymous in Cali' on 9-19-06: scientology wacko's

I have a similar case as you do. I worked for a Chiropractor in Orange County. Here are the circumstances within' the 5 years I worked there. STRANGE and ILLEGAL. Also, please tell me the outcome of your situation did you sue?
During my 1st year review, the doctor told me I was his wife in a past life & we had sex just like married couples do." He said we had sex & everything. After that, he introduced almost all of the patients to me "this is Gina, she is like my second wife."

Everyday we have to do "hatting for an hour after lunch where we don't see patients." Drilling repeatedly until you can read the drill verbadim, you get "flunk" over & over until you get it right. They press you to ask everyone for referrals daily, if you don't get one that week you receive a written "instruct" then they ask about "what's wrong in your personal life something must be wrong if you aren't in agreement, that is apparent you aren't getting referrals." VERY high pressure, the scientology books are all over the office, we must read from them & look up words that we have never seen that only Scientologists use. We are given a "condition" for our area's "statistics" IE; Danger, Emergency, Affluence, Normal" & you are questioned if one week I bring in $25,000 cash & the next is $22,000 cash, they bring me in for questioning. You are questioned & receive punishment when you are down in your stat or don't get referrals every week.

Another incident that occurred - is when the entire office could hear the doctor yelling at me for over an hour opening the Scientology book telling me that I committed "Treason" just because I didn't tell him about a staff member who said she was unhappy working in that environment. The following day he apologized to the whole staff & said he admitted he went "overboard." He said to show he is sorry he took all of us out to lunch. Everyone was very disturbed.

One day a patient, who I sent a statement to telephoned me screaming & yelling that he was going to sue me, sue them yadayadayada, for about 15 or 20 minutes. At the END of the conversation he said "Just have the doctor call me." I said "fine" & hung up. He called back, the doctor's wife answered & the patient said "she hung up on me, Gina hung up on me!" She told me to put in writing what happened, I did. This was on a Wed. or Thursday, on Monday both the doctor & his wife sat me down & opened up the Scientology booktelling me I had to do this condition I was in. At the top of the page it read "LIABILITY" Underneath that it read "you are the same color as an enemy & cannot be trusted or go unwatched." I refused to acknowledge this. After arguing, he told me i had to do something for the office "as the book says to do" (religion) to make up for what I did. SO I did the two things he asked that were office related. Although one of those things was to clean out my area. Sooon after, they went on vacation, when they returned, they could see I was still upset by this "enemy" thing. That day the doctor gave me a notice that explained he would be changing my bonus structure. He returned from lunch asked that I bring the notice, then said "did you read it?" YES "Do you have any questions?" I said "no." He looked frustrated, that night he fired me. He said "It's not working out I'm letting you go." He then said "well because of, you know what we talked about." That was it, now I'm out of work.

I'm the longest lasting employee in over 20-year's they have been in practice. Let me know how everything turned out for you!

From: http://stop-wise.biz/

WISE is the Scientology sector responsible for getting the supposedly secularized "Hubbard Management System" / "organizational and management technology" / "Management and Administrative Technology" / "LRH admin tech" in a wide as use as possible. The system is basically ruthless management by statistics which preaches a rigorous, even ruthless devotion to raising productivity for both staff and clients. The founder of Scientology, L. Ron Hubbard, wrote the material to manage the Church of Scientology and "is part of the religious literature and works of Scientology" (Foreword in OEC and Management Series books). Hubbard incidentaly flunked out of College and lied about virtually every aspect of his life.

Though the WISE affiliates deny the material is core part of the Scientology belief system. Afiliates like Hubbard College of Administration, Sterling Management Systems, David Singer Enterprises, Marcus Group Enterprises (MGE) / MGE: Management Experts, Hollander Consultants, Silhouet, Prosperity Plus Management Consulting, Modus Operandi Consultants owned by Manuel Nugteren, U-Man, Halverson-Quigley Management Systems (HQMS), Flasch Business Consulting and many others.

Likewise will they vehemently deny any relation with the Church of Scientology. However as the above internal policy and a magazine article published by WISE indicates, they are indeed rewarded money for every new Scientology recruit they make. To add insult to injury has WISE put together a 300 page manual for WISE consultants to maximize the number of new recruits into Scientology.

This is how that manual is touted in WISE International magazine Prosperity, issue #60, September 2003, pages 12 - 13: "We also produce the Consultant's Guide to Bridge Dissemination, a manual of more than 300 pages on how to handle clients, colleagues and business associates who come to you for help with their personal problems by referring them to a Church of Scientology for assistance."

From: http://stop-wise.biz/Dec_G_930905.html

Declaration of Robert G., D.D.S.: I later came to learn that the courses I was taking at Sterling were an introduction to Scientology, although I was not aware of the fact at that time. I now feel that what I was learning at Sterling Management Systems was simply an introduction into Scientology and was making me over into a Scientology salesman.
...
When I returned to Ohio in August of 1988[?], I now had to take over my wife's job responsibilities in the office; payroll and accounts receivable. I had to take my regular patients plus the backlog of patients, take care of the house, my daughter and complete Sterling Management assignments. I was kept in a continual state of exhaustion. My wife and I continued to call back and forth but the phone calls were cold and impersonal. I felt she was being directed and monitored in what she said. Later, when she returned home to Ohio I found notes that were given to her to inform her what to say on the phone when she conversed with me. During this time period my wife was constantly calling requesting that more money be spent on Scientology courses and materials. In the orchestrated phone calls I would be told that my wife had already made out counter checks and that I would have to cover the debts. Additionally, I was being instructed to cash in IRA accounts and mortgage the house to feed a growing Scientology habit. My wife was being sold "special property" books by L. Ron Hubbard as investments which would finance our childrens' college education. Every asset my family had was being systematically targeted and attacked. I was being told to take out one loan to cover another and to take out home equity loans on our house. Even though my wife had not yet completed the auditing in the clear package, she was purchasing auditing at a higher level from the Flag Service organization of the Church of Scientology in Clearwater, Florida.
...
It has now been approximately five years from this experience. The first year was the worst for my wife and myself, but every year has gotten better. During the first year there were constant flashbacks to the experiences my wife and I suffered at the hands of the Church of Scientology.

There is absolutely no question in my mind that the Church of Scientology constitutes a destructive cult. I have personal knowledge and experience with them. Sterling Management Systems of Glendale, California is a branch of Scientology that is disguised as a secular management company and used to recruit new members into Scientology.

I declare, under penalty of perjury, that the foregoing is true and correct. Executed this 5th day of September, 1993 at Medina, Ohio.

 

[Alanzo]

Wow, TT.

Nice write up!

Very helpful to those dentists and chiropractors who have been "touched" by parasitic WISE "consulting" companies.

 

[Emma]

Thanks TT. Nice work.

 

[uncle sam]

Thank you!! TT

Thanks TT. Nice work.

Great work!

 

[Tiger Lily]

TT that is a great collection of info. Good work.

-TL

 

[ShortStop]

Hmmm... tough situation. I haven't read everything in this thread so far.

Let me just throw out an idea that the ex's here can feel free to pick apart.

The thing scientology hates the most is bad publicity. If you husband is deemed PTS (Potential Trouble Source) he can't take any more courses.

Take all of your bills, credit cards, proof of charges for auditing to a troubleshooter TV news person & spill out your story.

Let's the ex's here evaluate this idea. Also make sure your daughter are well educated about scientology. You don't want them to get trapped.

 

[Mark A. Baker]

The thing scientology hates the most is bad publicity. If you husband is deemed PTS (Potential Trouble Source) he can't take any more courses.

The key point here is that the lady's husband is NOT directly involved with the Co$ at present to her knowledge. He has become a client of a management company run by scientologists.

Clearly they are using the same sort of sales & marketing techniques promulgated by the church as a way of pushing various forms of LRH tech. Specifically this company is "selling" mangagement tech. Personally, I can't imagine why anyone would want to buy it. However, clearly there exists a "deniability" shield between the two groups.

Unfortunately there is a lengthy history of aggressive marketing and high pressure sales techniques used by private scientologists as a way of increasing their income and "making the able more able". This sort of conduct has often been encouraged by the church where successful. It reflects the sort of radical "free market" prejudices of LRH and many other scientologists, especially here in america. Tales of scientology-related business scandals and cons are fairly well-known among scientologists. I sometimes wonder if Bernie Madoff isn't a scientologist.

I've no good suggestions to make, myself. I do suggest that she contact the Attorney General's offices in her own state as well as Florida concerning her fears of possible business improprieties. If such fears are proved this could be a RICO matter.


Mark A. Baker

 

[Roan]

ScaredStiff,

I havn't read the whole thread. But from what I know of the people who post here, you're receiving superlative advice.

Here's mine: don't be afraid of this cult anymore, they are a paper tiger. You need to protect your rights and your money; you are being de-frauded by an organization of soul-less, unscrupulous sharks.

File a police report. They may not be able to actually arrest anybody or do much, but it's important that there be a record of your full outrage, fear and victimhood that you and your family are being criminally de-frauded.

Contact the press (if you havn't already). Forget about your anonymity; drop it now, go public and go get your money back. This is the United States... fight them (Co$) head on and hit them where it hurts. Call many press outlets. Come up with your own website, documenting what this insidious cult is doing to an American family in the middle of an economic Depression.

I know my advice about not being concerned with your anonymity might be controversial here. But I mean it. I've had Scientology's stupid private eye's on my doorstep. They've walked around to the back of my house and still send goons in SUV's to do drive-bys and park in front of my (neighbors) house. My neighbors report to me much of this. They do most of it while I'm at work because they are frightened pussies who don't have the balls to confront me face to face.

They don't frighten me or my neighbors; they only come across has pathetic, almost comic buffoons.
What kind of Church does this?!?

Don't be afraid of them anymore. That is what they thrive on. Twenty years of critic activities and one year of Anonymous have stripped Scientology of almost all their covert, dirty tricks power.

.

 

[Megalomaniac]

Don't be afraid of them anymore.

^^^^THIS^^^^

Don't be anonymous. 1. You'll find a huge strength within yourself. 2. I'll apologize for not believing you exist.

A few months ago, I was very afraid. Today, I am actively trying to contact OSA. Paper tigers, indeed. They seem to not want to talk to me. :confused2: Too bad. I'm coming anyways. Expect me. Excommunication is their tool. Communication is mine. Try it!

Mac

 

[Sassy]

For scared: I'm in the home loan business. You need to call your mortgage lender and COMMUNICATE with them as soon as you can. Most lenders are holding off on proceeding with foreclosures right now. If you're 3 months behind, the foreclosure process will kick in very soon. Maybe you can persuade your husband to make 1 or 2 house payments and try to get back on track. Best of luck to you!!!

 

[FoTi]

Scared Stiff, if you could locate other dentists who have been taken advantage of by these consulting groups and have them contact your husband to let him know what he is up against, he might listen to his peers who have been burned. In my experience, doctors tend to listen to other doctors when they won't listen to anybody else.