Regarding Dave Englehart

[Alanzo]

What else is there?

.

Thank you for presenting yourself right out there completely.

There is, of course, all those whose experiences are differant than yours.

 

[Vinaire]

It seems that many people in COS and OSA are misguided, but I suppose there is still some decency left. I have to wait and see.

My friends who were recently declared "SPs" are not suppressive from my experience; so the Church definitely made an unethical decision. Looks like they are misguidedly putting group as superior to the individual. That is a direct violation of KSW 1. It is a bank agreement.

I have definitely come to doubt the Church terminals associated with ethics for their capability to evaluate. Ethics is supposed to be rationality, but it seems to have increasingly become punishment in current COS.

This is exactly the same phenomenon which occurred in Christianity, which tried to soften the practice of punishment in Judaism. Christianity, then, itself became corrupted and the Catholic Church opted for heavy punishment.

PUNISHMENT has been the hallmark of Semitic religions. It is just below the surface of the practice of Judaism, Christianity and Islam.

We are seeing the Church of Scientology becoming semiticized as well.

Am I to be punished now by an SP declare? If that is so, then that would be the most irrational act in view of my service to the community.

Math Club in News

Here is my Math Web site, by the way. It is far from complete. It is still under construction. Don't try the Membership Login yet.

Math Fundamentals Web Site


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[Veda]

It seems that many people in COS and OSA are misguided, but I suppose there is still some decency left. I have to wait and see.

My friends who were recently declared "SPs" are not suppressive from my experience; so the Church definitely made an unethical decision. Looks like they are misguidedly putting group as superior to the individual. That is a direct violation of KSW 1. It is a bank agreement.

I have definitely come to doubt the Church terminals associated with ethics for their capability to evaluate. Ethics is supposed to be rationality, but it seems to have increasingly become punishment in current COS.

This is exactly the same phenomenon which occurred in Christianity, which tried to soften the practice of punishment in Judaism. Christianity, then, itself became corrupted and the Catholic Church opted for heavy punishment.

PUNISHMENT has been the hallmark of Semitic religions. It is just below the surface of the practice of Judaism, Christianity and Islam.

We are seeing the Church of Scientology becoming semiticized as well.

Am I to be punished now by an SP declare? If that is so, then that would be the most irrational act in view of my service to the community.

Math Club in News

Here is my Math Web site, by the way. It is far from complete. It is still under construction. Don't try the Membership Login yet.

Math Fundamentals Web Site


.

You're drifting way down de Nile. Are you at Uganda yet?

"KSW' states that individuals are different but that ALL individuals have the same 'bank', thus are identical. Thus there are no true individuals, except the author of 'KSW', since - inevitably - everyone except 'LRH' (and now 'DM' also) has 'case'.

"Ethics" has multiple definitions in Scientology, ranging from something resembling the traditional notion of 'ethics' (which is displayed to 'wogs' and the naive), all the way to (the usually behind the scenes) 'anything goes if the Scientological end is achieved' (and it can be 'gotten away with').

 

[beyond_horizons]

It seems that many people in COS and OSA are misguided, but I suppose there is still some decency left. I have to wait and see.

...

Math Club in News

Here is my Math Web site, by the way. It is far from complete. It is still under construction. Don't try the Membership Login yet.

Math Fundamentals Web Site


.

God only knows how they could have been misguided!

That said, I hope you are teaching the good math and not the bad math known as ... ugh ... 'Calculus'. You do know what Ron was teaching us about that while in the closet! http://www.rr.cistron.nl/xenu/quotes.htm#calculus

...
Now I hope you understand this, because I've never been able to make head nor tail of it. It must be some sort of a Black Magic operation, started out by the Luce cult -- some immoral people who are operating up in New York City, Rockefeller Plaza -- been thoroughly condemned by the whole society. Anyway, their rate-of-change theory -- I've never seen any use for that mathematics, by the way -- I love that mathematics, because it -- I asked an engineer, one time, who was in his 6th year of engineering, if he'd ever used Calculus, and he told me yeah, once, once I did, he said. When did you use it? And he said I used it once. Let me see, what did you use it on? Oh yeah. Something on the rate-of-change of steam particles in boilers. And then we went out and tested it and found the answer was wrong.

Calculus -- if you want to know -- there is room there for a mathematics which is a good mathematics...

By using 'Calculus' some immoral people are able to post a 'Happy Face in a Mar's Crater' taken up close and personal. How sick and misguided is that, I ask you?

:wink2:

 

[PirateAndBum]

It's pretty sick BH. My god!

They're collecting the firewood right now.

Getting all worked up over a little fried flesh, humph. Don't ya know we are immortal spirits - you can't touch me? The Catholic's inquisition used some lousy exteriorization processes IMHO.

Shudder to think if Scn actually controlled a country...

Ramblings in real time.

 

[PirateAndBum]

Vinaire, you seem to be of the mind that you are dealing with sane individuals. Your own experience has shown that you are not. The experiences of many others has shown this insanity to be far worse than your own (experience that is, not questioning your sanity at all . ) Having become informed of others experiences that data has now become part of your own experience (subject to your own evaluation of it) - has it not?

 

[PirateAndBum]

You're drifting way down de Nile. Are you at Uganda yet?

"KSW' states that individuals are different but that ALL individuals have the same 'bank', thus are identical. Thus there are no true individuals, except the author of 'KSW', since - inevitably - everyone except 'LRH' (and now 'DM' also) has 'case'.

Hmm, your "thus" doesn't follow, you are twisting what was said by omitting the part about individual efforts. You are free to conclude what you will, but KSW does not say (nor, I would argue, does it imply) that. There is more than enough stuff in KSW #1 to lambast and deride.

Having risen above the bank he promptly decided it was time to make a withdrawal - moving all funds to Lichtenstein

 

[Veda]

Yes, this was somewhat sloppily put. The "thus are identical" was sloppy. Perhaps the mist on Vinnie's de Nile was getting to me.

The words "not truly sane" should have been in there somewhere. Don't wish to review 'KSW' at this time. Parsing Hubbard's double-talk will have to wait until another time.

I will say this, though: the thick atmosphere of "We are the only true (sane and capable of truly being ourselves) individuals, because we ran out our identical R6 Banks per LRH instructions" echoed through Scientology. Hubbard's justification for treating people as slaves was that they were already slaves to the 'bank', and when one 'bank' was 'handled', he discovered other 'banks' and 'case' that only his carefully taped path, closely followed, could free the slaves, Homo Saps, Implantees, and raw meat from.

It was at the time of "KSW' that Hubbard began to implement, majorly, the basics of his 1955 'Brainwashing Manual' upon Scientologists, completing that implementation by 1974 with the RPF, the RPF's RPF, etc.

I don't think "KSW' was an honest statement but a manipulative one. But you're right, my comments were sloppy.

 

[Vinaire]

Yes, this was somewhat sloppily put. The "thus are identical" was sloppy. Perhaps the mist on Vinnie's de Nile was getting to me.

The words "not truly sane" should have been in there somewhere. Don't wish to review 'KSW' at this time. Parsing Hubbard's double-talk will have to wait until another time.

I will say this, though: the thick atmosphere of "We are the only true (sane and capable of truly being ourselves) individuals, because we ran out our identical R6 Banks per LRH instructions" echoed through Scientology. Hubbard's justification for treating people as slaves was that they were already slaves to the 'bank', and when one 'bank' was 'handled', he discovered other 'banks' and 'case' that only his carefully taped path, closely followed, could free the slaves, Homo Saps, Implantees, and raw meat from.

It was at the time of "KSW' that Hubbard began to implement, majorly, the basics of his 1955 'Brainwashing Manual' upon Scientologists, completing that implementation by 1974 with the RPF, the RPF's RPF, etc.

I don't think "KSW' was an honest statement but a manipulative one. But you're right, my comments were sloppy.

Brainwashing causes sloppiness.

.

 

[beyond_horizons]

It's pretty sick BH. My god!

They're collecting the firewood right now.

Getting all worked up over a little fried flesh, humph. Don't ya know we are immortal spirits - you can't touch me? The Catholic's inquisition used some lousy exteriorization processes IMHO.

Not quite sure what that has to do with Viney's math class?

Shudder to think if Scn actually controlled a country...

Ramblings in real time.

Now you've got the picture!

 

[nw2394]

I have definitely come to doubt the Church terminals associated with ethics for their capability to evaluate. Ethics is supposed to be rationality, but it seems to have increasingly become punishment in current COS.

How long were you in the SO Vinnay? You only just noticed this? I've seen a couple of comm evs where I know for a fact that the convening authority (or that person at the behest of someone uplines) had made up their mind the person charged was guilty. It didn't make any difference what the facts were.

Surely you must have seen examples of this....

Even where the convening authority didn't have it in for the person, the people serving on the committee were so busy they would typically trawl through the person's ethics files etc simply looking for wrongnesses that proved or even just suggested that the charges were true. Job done. Guilty. Now we can go back to getting our stats up.

That's when there was a Comm Ev at all.

It doesn't sound like it has got better since my day either - more like worse than ever.

Nick

 

[Free to shine]

How long were you in the SO Vinnay? You only just noticed this? I've seen a couple of comm evs where I know for a fact that the convening authority (or that person at the behest of someone uplines) had made up their mind the person charged was guilty. It didn't make any difference what the facts were.

Surely you must have seen examples of this....

Even where the convening authority didn't have it in for the person, the people serving on the committee were so busy they would typically trawl through the person's ethics files etc simply looking for wrongnesses that proved or even just suggested that the charges were true. Job done. Guilty. Now we can go back to getting our stats up.

That's when there was a Comm Ev at all.

It doesn't sound like it has got better since my day either - more like worse than ever.

Nick

Yes, exactly.

Sometimes the penny doesn't drop about 'ethics handlings' until it's really up close and personal!

 

[Vinaire]

How long were you in the SO Vinnay? You only just noticed this? I've seen a couple of comm evs where I know for a fact that the convening authority (or that person at the behest of someone uplines) had made up their mind the person charged was guilty. It didn't make any difference what the facts were.

Surely you must have seen examples of this....

Even where the convening authority didn't have it in for the person, the people serving on the committee were so busy they would typically trawl through the person's ethics files etc simply looking for wrongnesses that proved or even just suggested that the charges were true. Job done. Guilty. Now we can go back to getting our stats up.

That's when there was a Comm Ev at all.

It doesn't sound like it has got better since my day either - more like worse than ever.

Nick

You are right.

I am simply talking about relative certainty. There is nothing more certain than when it happens to the person himself or herself.

.

 

[ClearEyed]

I received an email today from somebody asking about Dave Englehart. (snipped)

I knew Dave Englehart throughout the period I was in Sea Org. I remember him as a kind and gentle person. He was very friendly to me. He loved sailing. Last I ran into him was at one of the Flag events in the late 90s. After that I heard that he was assigned to RPF. I have not been in contact with him since. For all I know he may still be in RPF.

If anybody has more recent data please PM me.

.

Within the last 3-4 months Englehart has been on mission to recover disaffected persons.

That's all I've got.

 

[Vinaire]

Within the last 3-4 months Englehart has been on mission to recover disaffected persons.

That's all I've got.

Thanks for the information.

.

 

[CarmeloOrchards]

I publicly apologize for being indiscreet with some private information about Laurie's FSM and family trying to get Laurie and Dave out of Sea Org.

I guess that is because I have always been unafraid in my naivette. It is not that I have not been hurt by unscrupulous people, but I have been lucky to be able to shrug those things off and simply get on with my purpose.

It is shocking to me to see how much fear OSA still puts in some people's mind. In this case, some people are really afraid that OSA will now force Laurie and Dave to disconnect from Laurie's family and FSM. They are not only afraid of OSA, but they consider themselves to be in a war with COS and OSA.

I am now wondering why I did not think the way these people are thinking, and as a result, they are now trying to make me feel guilty.

(1) Firstly, I haven't yet experienced OSA to have descended to such low depths of ethics and morality, that they would now force Laurie and Dave to disconnect from Laurie's family and FSM, based on the information I gave out.

I have personally experienced that COS squirreled big time in an ethics cycle with me. As far as I am concerned, they have lost their moral high ground. If they ever react adversely to what I wrote about Laurie's family, I would consider them to have descended to the level of mafioso.

I would then do everything in my power to bring COS down. But I hope COS and OSA has still some self-respect left and they would not try to coerce Laurie and Dave in any way, shape or form.

(2) Secondly, being an Indian, I am very close to my family, and my family is very close to me. I left sea Org because of my family.

So, if Laurie and Dave are really close to their family, the Sea Org game would be up for them if OSA tries to force them to disconnect from their family.

I wish Laurie and Dave, and their family, the best. And I hope COS and OSA will act rationally in this case, and will work on mending their unethical ways of the past.

Sincerely,
Vinaire

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Vinaire's post above ^^^^ was posted concurrently with Dave Engelhart's routing out of the Sea Org and off the RPF (which he'd been on for nearly a decade).

I'm sure OSA reading that post wouldn't have made it any more difficult for Dave to route out and help his father, who was dying at the time.