Removing DM

x-x

Patron with Honors
First a couple of qualifications. Just as in Handbook for Preclears, whether a person puts up with various outpoints has a lot to do with whether they are winning on post and in life. Secondly of course we all know that overts magnify the problems. But that doesn't mean that you can't criticise, you just have to be straight with yourself when you are doing it.

Next, I am still undecided about DM partly because I am not there and getting data second hand, which may be modified by the first paragraph. However I wrote up my concerns and sent them to the RTC, haven't been declared yet.

It is also important to look at pros and cons. People who produce can be #%*holes, its important to look at the product when evaluating them. One good thing DM has done is the Basics programme where people are now reading over the key books of early Scientology. OK if DM is departing from Scientology basics doesn't this set him up by educating people in them?

If we put aside the scenario that the C of S is owned by the CST which has a former IRS guy in it, therefore the IRS actually owns Scientology and of course the President of the USA reports to his Senior who is an alien. Or if as it has been suggested, DM has no senior, then how can he be removed? The same way he got in, by a coup.

Clearly there was a coup prior, those guys who were LRH's personal staff just saw that they should now run the show with no groove in? And also, just if DM got put on post by Ron doesn't make it for life, I met a lady who was running Flag Bureaux on the Apollo for a week before she crashed and burned.
She told how isolated she felt till Ron saw her and put his arm around her and offered a few words of comfort.

Scientology is at the crossroads. Those who attack it are misguided, because it makes Scientologists really mad and more determined and we actually grow during attacks despite the noise and inconvenience. However after 60 years the movement is undergoing generational change. This is a point where all the old timers get another body or not, and I am concerned that the best traditions remain.

For instance I detect a change of atmosphere from Saint Hill. I visited it in '81 and was given a tour of LRH's office. UK was a rich theta place but there seems to have been a change of guard and style. Of course the key to it was probably that it was the home of the BC. Whether it is better or worse I don't know but thats what I get.

I also felt some of the old guard in ANZO got the rough end of the pineapple, such as the CS Dot, when GAT came in.

I had my suspicions of it for a long time, I think it has worked as far as standardising delivery and reducing technical screw ups, but for me it has been mixed. I had good auditing in the past, persistent floating TA on pilot of the FPRD, blow out win on OT 4 that kept me on staff for the rest of the 80's, very OT ep on Method 1, all this before GAT, and a pretty good correction to a rough episode on clear check with GAT after a lot of wasted hours and then some good but not necessarily great auditing after that. Its been ok and sometimes good, to me it hasn't necessarily lived up to the propaganda, but maybe thats just me.

Scientology is now in almost all countries of the world, the Muslim world is the last frontier. If the symbolism can be adapted to the differences of Islamic style then it should go like a rocket. LRH had quite an interest in the Muslim world.

I tend to think that Scientologists as a whole are a body of theta. I respect that group, I am proud to be in it. I am not trying to get you guys back, but I respect the majority of you. Even our fearless leader, Emma (not her real name, I recall her briefly) probably goes on about Scientology because she really wanted to make it and didn't. I don't like to see good people wasted, but it you have decided to leave, by all means do your own thing and I hope you do well.

There is an incredible amount of stress in orgs currently with donations to pay for Ideal Orgs. The theory of this is that Orgs are now corporately owned at the local level. Secondly it involves the field and activates them. Personally I contributed but I can see better ways of building Orgs, the way they used to be. Together with the IAS handing out status for giving money an absolute joke to early Scientology, I see this as possibly going off in a different direction. Thus DM as he is putting so much force into this is going out on a limb himself. If the programme fails, down he goes.

But this is just about Management, and speed of expansion. Scientology will go on as long as people find value in LRH's ideas. It is still the mother lode for me despite the fact that in my time of being "out" I dealt with obvious flaws in his ideas about other things. On Scientology he is an expert, in other matters he did well and had and incredibly wide set of interests but any being's viewpoint has potential limitations.

What is Scientology? It is a project that through truth, undercuts this Universe. It is an incredibly subversive thing. It is theta.
 

Eldon

Patron
Scientology is now in almost all countries of the world, the Muslim world is the last frontier. If the symbolism can be adapted to the differences of Islamic style then it should go like a rocket. LRH had quite an interest in the Muslim world.

Your cultural ignorance is astounding. Scientology won't get anywhere in the Muslim world simply because it positions itself as another religion. That alone makes it a crime to try and introduce it in Islamic countries.

You say "almost all countries of the world"? Well, there may still be a little Dianetics center in Hong Kong, but that's it for all of China. The Chinese government does not allow any religious proselytizing, let alone hard selling pricey services by a known cult. Scientology will be treated just like Falun Gong was if it tries to go there.
 

Veda

Sponsor
Scientology is now in almost all countries of the world, the Muslim world is the last frontier. If the symbolism can be adapted to the differences of Islamic style then it should go like a rocket. LRH had quite an interest in the Muslim world.

How are you going to explain "wog" to them?

And what about Xenu, Incident 2 and Incident 1? Afterall, they'll need to do OT 3 or they'll eventually be sucked into the dwindling spiral and become cinders? Remember?

And what about those insulting comments re. Islam and Muhammad made by Hubbard?

Edit it out? You think they won't know?

Here's one of many Hubbard comments:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZbT6bQi-1bw

Realistically, even if the above can be air-brushed away, how likely is it that the middle east and Indonesia will go for a rubbery lipped redneck from Nebraska with red hair?

I tend to think that Scientologists as a whole are a body of theta. I respect that group, I am proud to be in it.

Scientology is not really a group. It's an "operation." Do you really think that there's a group there? Have you ever witnessed anyone stand at a Scientology event and express disagreement? Group? Group of sheep?

What is Scientology? It is a project that through truth, undercuts this Universe. It is an incredibly subversive thing. It is theta.

Well, it's definitely covert, as in sneaky.

But "theta"? Does theta smell like that? Noooooooo. That ain't theta:

http://exscn.net/content/view/178/105
 

Once bitten

Patron Meritorious
First a couple of qualifications. Just as in Handbook for Preclears, whether a person puts up with various outpoints has a lot to do with whether they are winning on post and in life. Secondly of course we all know that overts magnify the problems. But that doesn't mean that you can't criticise, you just have to be straight with yourself when you are doing it.

Next, I am still undecided about DM partly because I am not there and getting data second hand, which may be modified by the first paragraph. However I wrote up my concerns and sent them to the RTC, haven't been declared yet.

It is also important to look at pros and cons. People who produce can be #%*holes, its important to look at the product when evaluating them. One good thing DM has done is the Basics programme where people are now reading over the key books of early Scientology. OK if DM is departing from Scientology basics doesn't this set him up by educating people in them?

If we put aside the scenario that the C of S is owned by the CST which has a former IRS guy in it, therefore the IRS actually owns Scientology and of course the President of the USA reports to his Senior who is an alien. Or if as it has been suggested, DM has no senior, then how can he be removed? The same way he got in, by a coup.

Clearly there was a coup prior, those guys who were LRH's personal staff just saw that they should now run the show with no groove in? And also, just if DM got put on post by Ron doesn't make it for life, I met a lady who was running Flag Bureaux on the Apollo for a week before she crashed and burned.
She told how isolated she felt till Ron saw her and put his arm around her and offered a few words of comfort.

Scientology is at the crossroads. Those who attack it are misguided, because it makes Scientologists really mad and more determined and we actually grow during attacks despite the noise and inconvenience. However after 60 years the movement is undergoing generational change. This is a point where all the old timers get another body or not, and I am concerned that the best traditions remain.

For instance I detect a change of atmosphere from Saint Hill. I visited it in '81 and was given a tour of LRH's office. UK was a rich theta place but there seems to have been a change of guard and style. Of course the key to it was probably that it was the home of the BC. Whether it is better or worse I don't know but thats what I get.

I also felt some of the old guard in ANZO got the rough end of the pineapple, such as the CS Dot, when GAT came in.

I had my suspicions of it for a long time, I think it has worked as far as standardising delivery and reducing technical screw ups, but for me it has been mixed. I had good auditing in the past, persistent floating TA on pilot of the FPRD, blow out win on OT 4 that kept me on staff for the rest of the 80's, very OT ep on Method 1, all this before GAT, and a pretty good correction to a rough episode on clear check with GAT after a lot of wasted hours and then some good but not necessarily great auditing after that. Its been ok and sometimes good, to me it hasn't necessarily lived up to the propaganda, but maybe thats just me.

Scientology is now in almost all countries of the world, the Muslim world is the last frontier. If the symbolism can be adapted to the differences of Islamic style then it should go like a rocket. LRH had quite an interest in the Muslim world.

I tend to think that Scientologists as a whole are a body of theta. I respect that group, I am proud to be in it. I am not trying to get you guys back, but I respect the majority of you. Even our fearless leader, Emma (not her real name, I recall her briefly) probably goes on about Scientology because she really wanted to make it and didn't. I don't like to see good people wasted, but it you have decided to leave, by all means do your own thing and I hope you do well.

There is an incredible amount of stress in orgs currently with donations to pay for Ideal Orgs. The theory of this is that Orgs are now corporately owned at the local level. Secondly it involves the field and activates them. Personally I contributed but I can see better ways of building Orgs, the way they used to be. Together with the IAS handing out status for giving money an absolute joke to early Scientology, I see this as possibly going off in a different direction. Thus DM as he is putting so much force into this is going out on a limb himself. If the programme fails, down he goes.

But this is just about Management, and speed of expansion. Scientology will go on as long as people find value in LRH's ideas. It is still the mother lode for me despite the fact that in my time of being "out" I dealt with obvious flaws in his ideas about other things. On Scientology he is an expert, in other matters he did well and had and incredibly wide set of interests but any being's viewpoint has potential limitations.

What is Scientology? It is a project that through truth, undercuts this Universe. It is an incredibly subversive thing. It is theta.

Oh god! How sad and boring :yawn:
 

thetanic

Gold Meritorious Patron
x-x, I'm just going to respond to the parts that I feel I can add substance to here.

Next, I am still undecided about DM partly because I am not there and getting data second hand, which may be modified by the first paragraph. However I wrote up my concerns and sent them to the RTC, haven't been declared yet.

I wouldn't expect a declare to happen immediately. I don't know if you've seen the Greg & Debra Barnes story about their KR up to RTC and how long that process took, but I was thinking it had been months.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n-Sh3hLn6PM]

I'd expect it to not be immediate if your comm actually went up to Int because it would take time.

People who produce can be #%*holes, its important to look at the product when evaluating them. One good thing DM has done is the Basics programme where people are now reading over the key books of early Scientology. OK if DM is departing from Scientology basics doesn't this set him up by educating people in them?

First, about people's behavior. If I was a boss, I would strive not to create the overt in an overt-motivator sequence nor let my juniors' overts be my motivators. Bad behavior is bad behavior and ARC-breaks people.

Of course you want production, but you want it not only this week, but also next week, next month, next year. The only reason I stayed on staff as long as I did was the simple reason that my own senior was humane.

On the Basics, let's look at that. You're right, there wasn't really a formal program for educating people in the basic books before, and I always felt that my own personal favorite, Creation of Human Ability was merrily skipped over.

So I have the following questions:

1) Should the Basics be a prerequisite for Class 0? Why, or why not? (I'd like both your opinion and, if handy, any LRH references you choose to cite in support of your answer -- I'm assuming you wouldn't disagree with LRH on this point.)

2) If not before Class 0, when should they be studied for an auditor? I'd guess they'd be covered on the SHSBC, though I haven't looked at the checksheet.

3) When should the Basics be on a staff member's TIP? I'm assuming Staff Status 0 through II would come first, then likely Student Hat and Full Hat. Let's assume, for this hypothetical question, that this staff member is in a non public facing position that's an admin position, perhaps a central files clerk. Someone for whom being in PT is particularly critical, so perhaps auditing after hatting would better serve their post needs.

4) Is it appropriate for AOLA to deliver the Basics to public? Shouldn't the AO be delivering upper level services instead? Traditionally, AOLA delivered Solo/R6 through OT V (well, OT VII if one goes back far enough) and Class VIII and I believe IX.

Looking at Advance issue 197 (around May 2008), I cherry pick the following information:

14 DMSMH basic course completions
13 Solo Part II completions
0 Class VIII completions
0 Class IX completions

27 Clear attests
11 OT III attests
32 OT V attests

Does that look like what AOLA should be producing?

Or if as it has been suggested, DM has no senior, then how can he be removed? The same way he got in, by a coup.

Clearly there was a coup prior, those guys who were LRH's personal staff just saw that they should now run the show with no groove in? And also, just if DM got put on post by Ron doesn't make it for life, I met a lady who was running Flag Bureaux on the Apollo for a week before she crashed and burned. She told how isolated she felt till Ron saw her and put his arm around her and offered a few words of comfort.

I'm glad you recognize that there was a coup. We were both in when Ron died, and it was obvious to me at that time. The Broekers were trained by Ron and Pat was the custodian of the OT levels. Obviously, that's part of the control: who knows where Trementina base (and other secret bases) are, who knows where the unreleased materials are, that's part of the reins of power.

I also felt some of the old guard in ANZO got the rough end of the pineapple, such as the CS Dot, when GAT came in.

I had my suspicions of it for a long time, I think it has worked as far as standardising delivery and reducing technical screw ups, but for me it has been mixed. I had good auditing in the past, persistent floating TA on pilot of the FPRD, blow out win on OT 4 that kept me on staff for the rest of the 80's, very OT ep on Method 1, all this before GAT, and a pretty good correction to a rough episode on clear check with GAT after a lot of wasted hours and then some good but not necessarily great auditing after that. Its been ok and sometimes good, to me it hasn't necessarily lived up to the propaganda, but maybe thats just me.

I've had some great auditing sessions. I've had a persistent F/N, but never a Floating TA, but I have seen people who had them, so I can kind of relate.

That said, I was out before GAT.

It's not just you, from the "word on the street." It's also a much, much longer ramp for auditors to train, and I think it seems like a lot of arbitraries. I was horrified when I went through the friendsoflrh.org section on training. I wish more of the raw information were available, but this chart alone is horrifying:

doc03-08aa.png


As you know, at least a Class VIII is needed to do repairs on pre-OTs, so stalling the Class VIII training line means that there will be no one to audit pre-OTs.

I tend to think that Scientologists as a whole are a body of theta. I respect that group, I am proud to be in it. I am not trying to get you guys back, but I respect the majority of you. Even our fearless leader, Emma (not her real name, I recall her briefly) probably goes on about Scientology because she really wanted to make it and didn't. I don't like to see good people wasted, but it you have decided to leave, by all means do your own thing and I hope you do well.

Thank you, I am doing well.

I have no problem with Scientologists as individuals, but I do have problems with the money games and control games that seem to be a part of the behavior of the CoS.

There is an incredible amount of stress in orgs currently with donations to pay for Ideal Orgs. The theory of this is that Orgs are now corporately owned at the local level.

I'm guessing you're not in the US based on your spelling, but in the US, orgs have always been owned at the local level. Part of this was a strategy against one org pulling others down.

Secondly it involves the field and activates them. Personally I contributed but I can see better ways of building Orgs, the way they used to be.

If you really look at the LRH ED (102?) on Ideal Orgs, buildings are not mentioned. I can't see LRH agreeing with the way the Ideal Org projects are going. It's wasteful and inefficient and costly.

Besides, there's always HCO PL 24 February 1964, "Urgent, Org Programming":

If the Org slumps: Don't engage in 'fund raising' or 'selling postcards' or borrowing money. Just make more income with Scientology. It's a sign of very poor management to seek extraordinary solutions for finance outside Scientology. It has always failed. For Orgs as for pcs 'Solve it With Scientology.' Every time I myself have sought to solve finance or personnel in other ways than Scientology I have lost out. So I can tell you from experience that Org solvency lies in More Scientology, not patented combs or fund raising Barbecues." -- L. Ron Hubbard

Together with the IAS handing out status for giving money an absolute joke to early Scientology, I see this as possibly going off in a different direction. Thus DM as he is putting so much force into this is going out on a limb himself. If the programme fails, down he goes.

Just so you understand, the IAS money is used to oppress people here. It's used to send private investigators to intimidate business contacts, employers, friends, essentially cut each and every one of us off from money, family, friends, and meaningful aspects of our lives.

It's used to file frivolous lawsuits against us and delay legitimate lawsuits with childish tactics.

What is Scientology? It is a project that through truth, undercuts this Universe. It is an incredibly subversive thing. It is theta.

There are many Scientologists outside the CoS. Some of them are here. I expect that, before long, you will be among them.
 

lionheart

Gold Meritorious Patron
Remove DM and I'm afraid you will get another psychotic leader.

Because scientology policy is psychotic.

This is because LRH was psychotic and set up an organisation to further his pychotic personality.

The policy and orders, being psychotic, can only be implemented by someone who behaves psychotically.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychosis
Psychosis (from the Greek ψυχή "psyche", for mind or soul, and -ωσις "-osis", for abnormal condition) literally means abnormal condition of the mind, and is a generic psychiatric term for a mental state often described as involving a "loss of contact with reality". People suffering from psychosis are said to be psychotic.

People experiencing psychosis may report hallucinations or delusional beliefs, and may exhibit personality changes and thought disorder. This may be accompanied by unusual or bizarre behavior, as well as difficulty with social interaction and impairment in carrying out the daily life activities.


The above is a clear description of LRH, DM and scientology orgs, and unfortunately describes many scientologists. Also, I'm afraid it describes the upper levels.

Remove DM, AND the psychotic KSW and other org policies and the OSA madness and you might have something worthwhile, but removing DM on its own will not handle the psychosis of the subject.
 

thetanic

Gold Meritorious Patron
While I'm at it, how did it feel to be busted back to pre-clear after doing OT 4?

This is apparently fairly common practice for both clears and pre-OTs.

From this post:

It had been adjudicated that:

I was "Clear" when I got in in early 70s..was NOT Clear in 1978..was Clear in 1979..was NOT Clear in 1989...was Clear in 1989....was NOT Clear in 2003..was Clear in 2003..was NOT Clear in 2004..was Clear in 2004..was NOT Clear in 2007..was Clear in 2007..I doubted I was Clear in 2008..Oh..did I mention that I finished NEW NEW NEW OTVlll in 2003 or that I was on OTVll for 13 yrs starting in 1990...?
 

Fancy

Patron Meritorious
I was deadfiled two weeks after I wrote my KR to rtc. Out and don't let door hit me in the behind it was and I was told I was trash in the process.
 

Mystic

Crusader
First a couple of qualifications. Just as in Handbook for Preclears, whether a person puts up with various outpoints has a lot to do with whether they are winning on post and in life. Secondly of course we all know that overts magnify the problems. But that doesn't mean that you can't criticise, you just have to be straight with yourself when you are doing it.

Next, I am still undecided about DM partly because I am not there and getting data second hand, which may be modified by the first paragraph. However I wrote up my concerns and sent them to the RTC, haven't been declared yet.

It is also important to look at pros and cons. People who produce can be #%*holes, its important to look at the product when evaluating them. One good thing DM has done is the Basics programme where people are now reading over the key books of early Scientology. OK if DM is departing from Scientology basics doesn't this set him up by educating people in them?

If we put aside the scenario that the C of S is owned by the CST which has a former IRS guy in it, therefore the IRS actually owns Scientology and of course the President of the USA reports to his Senior who is an alien. Or if as it has been suggested, DM has no senior, then how can he be removed? The same way he got in, by a coup.

Clearly there was a coup prior, those guys who were LRH's personal staff just saw that they should now run the show with no groove in? And also, just if DM got put on post by Ron doesn't make it for life, I met a lady who was running Flag Bureaux on the Apollo for a week before she crashed and burned.
She told how isolated she felt till Ron saw her and put his arm around her and offered a few words of comfort.

Scientology is at the crossroads. Those who attack it are misguided, because it makes Scientologists really mad and more determined and we actually grow during attacks despite the noise and inconvenience. However after 60 years the movement is undergoing generational change. This is a point where all the old timers get another body or not, and I am concerned that the best traditions remain.

For instance I detect a change of atmosphere from Saint Hill. I visited it in '81 and was given a tour of LRH's office. UK was a rich theta place but there seems to have been a change of guard and style. Of course the key to it was probably that it was the home of the BC. Whether it is better or worse I don't know but thats what I get.

I also felt some of the old guard in ANZO got the rough end of the pineapple, such as the CS Dot, when GAT came in.

I had my suspicions of it for a long time, I think it has worked as far as standardising delivery and reducing technical screw ups, but for me it has been mixed. I had good auditing in the past, persistent floating TA on pilot of the FPRD, blow out win on OT 4 that kept me on staff for the rest of the 80's, very OT ep on Method 1, all this before GAT, and a pretty good correction to a rough episode on clear check with GAT after a lot of wasted hours and then some good but not necessarily great auditing after that. Its been ok and sometimes good, to me it hasn't necessarily lived up to the propaganda, but maybe thats just me.

Scientology is now in almost all countries of the world, the Muslim world is the last frontier. If the symbolism can be adapted to the differences of Islamic style then it should go like a rocket. LRH had quite an interest in the Muslim world.

I tend to think that Scientologists as a whole are a body of theta. I respect that group, I am proud to be in it. I am not trying to get you guys back, but I respect the majority of you. Even our fearless leader, Emma (not her real name, I recall her briefly) probably goes on about Scientology because she really wanted to make it and didn't. I don't like to see good people wasted, but it you have decided to leave, by all means do your own thing and I hope you do well.

There is an incredible amount of stress in orgs currently with donations to pay for Ideal Orgs. The theory of this is that Orgs are now corporately owned at the local level. Secondly it involves the field and activates them. Personally I contributed but I can see better ways of building Orgs, the way they used to be. Together with the IAS handing out status for giving money an absolute joke to early Scientology, I see this as possibly going off in a different direction. Thus DM as he is putting so much force into this is going out on a limb himself. If the programme fails, down he goes.

But this is just about Management, and speed of expansion. Scientology will go on as long as people find value in LRH's ideas. It is still the mother lode for me despite the fact that in my time of being "out" I dealt with obvious flaws in his ideas about other things. On Scientology he is an expert, in other matters he did well and had and incredibly wide set of interests but any being's viewpoint has potential limitations.

What is Scientology? It is a project that through truth, undercuts this Universe. It is an incredibly subversive thing. It is theta.

Handbook for Preclears sucks.

The scifaggOT idea of "magnifying overts" is just shoit spewed from the lips of L. Ron Hubbard, a fake being, a tulpa manufactured in the lower darkness just to fool you. And you are obviously well fooled with your "we all know" OSA programming language.

And the balance of this posting is too worthless to make further comment.

And may your scifaggOT stats be well crashed this wonderful Christmas season.

Merry Christmas.

 

Type4_PTS

Diamond Invictus SP
Next, I am still undecided about DM partly because I am not there and getting data second hand, which may be modified by the first paragraph. However I wrote up my concerns and sent them to the RTC, haven't been declared yet.

You don't need to be physically there with DM to realize that there is a situation. There's plenty of good data out there you can use to evaluate the CoS and Int Management.

In your opening post on ESMB you expressed "going to external authorities is a big mistake" and yet you've never presented a real solution as to how to handle things internally. All you said was: "If Marty's allegations are true things might become uncomfortable for DM and he might decide to leave....."
Please expand upon this x-x. If YOU were working at the Int Base please indicate what YOU would do to make things "uncomfortable" for DM to get him to decide to leave.
 

x-x

Patron with Honors
"I wouldn't expect a declare to happen immediately. I don't know if you've seen the Greg & Debra Barnes story about their KR up to RTC and how long that process took, but I was thinking it had been months."

Speaking of time, that youtube thing goes 2 hours.... After 10 minutes they still hadn't got to the point. However one thing that occurred to me is the comment about issues full of italics. I have an old set of HCOBs. I figure they are good upto about 1965. Then an interesting thing happens, issues after this point are revised and re-revised. Why not the earlier ones. OK I rationalised this that maybe LRH was delegating. You can also notice the cross referencing at the top which was never done before.

Now I don't buy the line that Ron was best in the fifties, he still broke new ground right up to 78 at least. But for standard tech there seems to be quite a bit of fine tuning going on. Again I am not taking an automatic negative stance, I am up at look.



On the Basics, let's look at that. You're right, there wasn't really a formal program for educating people in the basic books before, and I always felt that my own personal favorite, Creation of Human Ability was merrily skipped over.

So I have the following questions:

1) Should the Basics be a prerequisite for Class 0? Why, or why not? (I'd like both your opinion and, if handy, any LRH references you choose to cite in support of your answer -- I'm assuming you wouldn't disagree with LRH on this point.)

2) If not before Class 0, when should they be studied for an auditor? I'd guess they'd be covered on the SHSBC, though I haven't looked at the checksheet.

3) When should the Basics be on a staff member's TIP? I'm assuming Staff Status 0 through II would come first, then likely Student Hat and Full Hat. Let's assume, for this hypothetical question, that this staff member is in a non public facing position that's an admin position, perhaps a central files clerk. Someone for whom being in PT is particularly critical, so perhaps auditing after hatting would better serve their post needs.

4) Is it appropriate for AOLA to deliver the Basics to public? Shouldn't the AO be delivering upper level services instead? Traditionally, AOLA delivered Solo/R6 through OT V (well, OT VII if one goes back far enough) and Class VIII and I believe IX.

Looking at Advance issue 197 (around May 2008), I cherry pick the following information:

14 DMSMH basic course completions
13 Solo Part II completions
0 Class VIII completions
0 Class IX completions

27 Clear attests
11 OT III attests
32 OT V attests

Does that look like what AOLA should be producing?

Well its not off tech to get people to go over it again, used to be 3 times over at one stage. But I wrote up to Int in the '90s when I was reading over the Data Series at home, that Saint Hill was a clinic and not training auditors.
Orgs don't make money out of processing, take note armchair critics, that there is a lot of behind the scenes work and session time is precisely timed and that other work is not billed. Orgs make money through training. Saint Hill in the boom days ran the BC and people flocked to it.

Training should be delivered on a gradient. The full basics line up includes the Philadelphia Doctorate Course and this is being delivered to raw meat. (note Anons, you are raw meat if you think you are a body, its a humourous but apt description)


If you really look at the LRH ED (102?) on Ideal Orgs, buildings are not mentioned. I can't see LRH agreeing with the way the Ideal Org projects are going. It's wasteful and inefficient and costly.

Besides, there's always HCO PL 24 February 1964, "Urgent, Org Programming":


Thetanic, I love you. I owe you at least a cup of coffee. I was up in Qual in 1989 looking over some mimeo copies of recent issues and I recall reading the section "Solve it with Scientology" I remembered it as an individual issue. I have searched high and low for this reference for years, asked the Qual Sec at AOSH ANZO, bought new OEC vols. You have found the lost reference for me.



Just so you understand, the IAS money is used to oppress people here. It's used to send private investigators to intimidate business contacts, employers, friends, essentially cut each and every one of us off from money, family, friends, and meaningful aspects of our lives.

It's used to file frivolous lawsuits against us and delay legitimate lawsuits with childish tactics.



I used to work in DSA, we never did anything like that. We were as ethical as we could be. We had a job to do, its a rough world, but we tried to stick with truth. Did this happen while Rinder was CO OSA Int or since?

That was a very interesting website COB vs LRH, of course just a few quotes isn't enough to prove that freezone is more on source that the official group.
There is also an issue "Using policy to stop." If DM pulls it off and gets all orgs Saint Hill size, huzzahs for him. If not the buck stops at the top.
 

x-x

Patron with Honors
While I'm at it, how did it feel to be busted back to pre-clear after doing OT 4?

This is apparently fairly common practice for both clears and pre-OTs.

From this post:

Well there are specific indicators which are looked for. But in my case there was a block, a postulate I made would you believe when I was about 5 and this when it was gotten off produced the desired result the very next question. But this required some very clever CSing from the late Peter Sparshot ). Maybe the others you reference weren't so lucky CS wise. Or maybe they weren't clear. I am just telling it how it is.

To be on the OT levels without making clear would be unsuccessful. To be wrongly taken off them was just awful, an emotional curve you wouldn't believe. I thought, hell I had such great wins on OT 4, wouldn't you just go with that. But it certainly gave me certainty in the end and it wouldn't have occurred if I hadn't been willing to invalidate myself.

There were a lot of clear declarations when Dianetic Clears came out, and some probably were wrong. Our local org is producing clears but the rate is slow.
 

x-x

Patron with Honors
In your opening post on ESMB you expressed "going to external authorities is a big mistake" and yet you've never presented a real solution as to how to handle things internally. All you said was: "If Marty's allegations are true things might become uncomfortable for DM and he might decide to leave....."
Please expand upon this x-x. If YOU were working at the Int Base please indicate what YOU would do to make things "uncomfortable" for DM to get him to decide to leave.


There are a lot of people within who are just doing their jobs. How could DM stand up to the top exec strata if they all tried to buck him. I am only hearing reports about what is happening to the top exec strata, time has proven for me that it is very dangerous to act on reports that you haven't inspected yourself. So please note that these discussions are hypothetical.

I have lent my voice against the current attacks. I have felt it was necessary to make some comments internally apart from the KR, on the basis that one way to deal with attacks is to take responsibility for the situation and that may include changing policies.

Seeing attackers seem to want to go for the core of Scientology and not specific things, I will close ranks against them even if I am not 100% happy with how things have been done. But I will also try to be fair and as I said internally make changes.
 
As-Is the Current Scene

[I
Thetanic, I love you. I owe you at least a cup of coffee. I was up in Qual in 1989 looking over some mimeo copies of recent issues and I recall reading the section "Solve it with Scientology" I remembered it as an individual issue. I have searched high and low for this reference for years, asked the Qual Sec at AOSH ANZO, bought new OEC vols. You have found the lost reference for me.

There is a lot of lost data out there in the world that can be found on the Internet. Look, don't think! You will find it.

Just so you understand, the IAS money is used to oppress people here. It's used to send private investigators to intimidate business contacts, employers, friends, essentially cut each and every one of us off from money, family, friends, and meaningful aspects of our lives.

It's used to file frivolous lawsuits against us and delay legitimate lawsuits with childish tactics.


I used to work in DSA, we never did anything like that. We were as ethical as we could be. We had a job to do, its a rough world, but we tried to stick with truth. Did this happen while Rinder was CO OSA Int or since?
________________________________________________________________

Yes, is ongoing right now, and this happened on Rinder's watch, and it happened before him. It is a clearly established, long-standing pattern and practice by the church of Scientology to use parishoner's donated money to hire PI's, attorneys and others to intimidate and harrass people using a variety of legal and illegal means, many of whom are not directly involved with Scientology in any way.

Please don't make the simpleminded error of equating critics with attackers. A=A=A=A. You know better than that.

Keep looking, keep researching on the Internet, you will learn much that you do not know at present, and by doing so you will become much more able to be at cause in your own life and also for positive change in the world, and better able to help your group. I believe that you are a spiritual being, and can succeed in this. It will take time, the information and materials available are vast. Look for yourself, and make up your own mind about issues. Educate yourself as to the current scene with upper management of the church, not just your own immediate area.

We have members here who were in during the 50's, and in every decade since then, who worked with Ron personally and who were at all levels of management, who actually helped to develop the tech and training, you can learn much just by reading their posts here and by getting into comm with them, and see how the scene has shifted over time.

I believe that you have high ideals and sincerely want to do the greatest good for the greatest number of dynamics, and I support you in that. So do I. Just because you have not personally witnessed many of the abuses and out-points that critics know about and want handled, does not mean that they did not take place. I would love to see the church reform itself from within.

But if it does not, then it will have to be reformed from outside, for the greater good.

I'm glad you joined us here. Keep reading, and keep posting. Welcome.
 

Type4_PTS

Diamond Invictus SP
There are a lot of people within who are just doing their jobs. How could DM stand up to the top exec strata if they all tried to buck him. I am only hearing reports about what is happening to the top exec strata, time has proven for me that it is very dangerous to act on reports that you haven't inspected yourself. So please note that these discussions are hypothetical.

OK, lets have a hypothetical discussion here. Let's say that Marty's allegations with regard to DM were true. Let's say that the allegations against DM in the many reports on www.scientology-cult.com were also true. If you read all those reports, I believe you'll answer your own question "How could DM stand up to the top exec strata if they all tried to buck him." What would YOU do if you had been on exec strata? Say to DM: "Sir, I'm ordering you to Sec Checks immediately, pick up the cans!"
You would find yourself assigned to the RPF so fast your head would spin, that's after he finished giving you an SRA. x-x, you KNOW that at least some of those allegations are true. Read these articles:
http://www.scientology-cult.com/table-of-contents.html
They were written by people who care about Scientology as much or more than you do. They worked at the Int Base and were first hand witness'es to many serious issues. It's not just Marty saying these things.
Say (just hypothetically) that YOU personally witnessed some of these things and knew them to be true. How exactly would you handle it internally? You say it was a big mistake going to external authorities but you don't give a real solution for how to handle matters internally.
 

Blue Spirit

Silver Meritorious Patron
Simple Solution

Using COHA, process R2-__ by any auditor with access and proper skills.

That would be "the greatest good", and therefore the LRH stamp of approval.
 

Zinjifar

Silver Meritorious Sponsor
I suspect that the last decade's hypertrophied scraping of the barrel has two purposes:

1) To get the last possible gleanings out of the still 'Church' affiliated
2) To lead anyone not completely obsessed with being a 'Church' member/Scientologist to leave 'voluntarily'.

Once the potential trouble sources (the sane) are eliminated, the 'Church' is optimally situated to do a comeback with minimal requirements to make good on its promises.

Zinj
 

Mystic

Crusader
Dear Mr. David Miscavige (more lovingly known as Dinky Davey or the ever popular "Dwarf Davey"),

Please continue to do what you have been doing. We sincerely appreciate it.

Thank you.

 
G

Gottabrain

Guest
Dear X,
It may be best if you spend a few weeks reading the information available here on exscn.net and exscientologykids.com so you can make a better decision with more facts at your disposal. It will all make more sense very soon.

On this site, you will find where the tech originally came from, various mind control and other techniques used by Hubbard, real life stories of Hubbard not released by some PR Media, and a wealth of other truth you would never find within the C of S.

I can only urge you to read, research and be willing to let go of many things that you may have held true for a good portion of your life. It is a hard thing to do, it takes a lot of courage, but I beileve you can do it.

Good luck and glad to see you on the Board.
 
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