Removing DM

La La Lou Lou

Crusader
Looks to me that Scinetology really makes people into SP's.

All the old SH staff, top management, most class 8's, the majority of SO members.

They were not all declared by DM, bunch of us were declared before he started the night of the long knives. DM may be a meglamaniac, but he learned from the expert.
 

Type4_PTS

Diamond Invictus SP
How exactly would you handle it internally? You say it was a big mistake going to external authorities but you don't give a real solution for how to handle matters internally.


:thumbsup: I concur Type 4.


That was the third time I've asked this question of x-x in the week and a half he's been on the board and he has yet to present a real solution.

x-x,
I appreciate that you HAVE done some things, written up a KR on DM and that is admirable. However, others in the past have written up legitimate KR's with the intent to see situations handled internally but to no result. If you are going to criticize those who went to external authorities, saying it was a big mistake, I feel you should be able to present a real solution to the problem they were trying to solve, regardless of whether you have certainty (or not) the allegations are factual. Assuming that their allegations were factual, how *should* they have effectively handled matters within the CoS? If you had an answer to this I imagine you'd have already answered it after the first three times I asked.
One of the problems in having a "dictator" as your chief executive is that when HE is in need of some kind of handling there is no one internally who has the ability to ensure that it gets done.
 

x-x

Patron with Honors
That was the third time I've asked this question of x-x in the week and a half he's been on the board and he has yet to present a real solution.

I have been answering it, you haven't been duplicating it.

At least I am doing something, truth is capable of making the guy blow.

Next, maybe someday someone will have the right cognition and be able to confront the guy. My confront can be pretty good. I had a heroin addict running at me with an iron bar he was going to hit me with and I stood my ground and he stopped inches from my face. I've never been a fighter this life, although in later years I wouldn't mind knowing some karate. The thing is to be capable of using force, but not actually using it in most cases.

I think you question might relate to your own experiences, which I am sorry I just briefly looked over in some of your old posts. Look, I have been around for 35 years, I am usually not very withheld in my communication. If I met the guy I might very well ask him: does he beat up his staff? But the thing is I would do it with ARC, not antagonism. You can have ARC for the basic individual while disagreeing with what they are doing.

DM is complex, some of the things he has done have been good. But otherwise there are a range of things from declaring senior tech staff to depriving staff from auditing and training - which is revealed in another thread currently. He seems to be in a constant Flap, and I think he is generating them.

Anyhow if you think there is an ounce of truth in Scientology, the external attack is not the way to go. All you will get is a dramatisation. And it is by definition suppressive.

I think he is off hat, off tech, off ethics and off admin. He is also into MEST not theta.

I had ago at asking an OT 8 who sees him all the time to handle the lack of auditing of veteran staff, and he said he had been trying to get the same issue handled for a long time, but he just didn't have the tools to deal with it.
(not a staff member).

DM's time will come. In the mean time it is better to focus on a positive goal than a negative one.
 

thetanic

Gold Meritorious Patron
DM is complex, some of the things he has done have been good. But otherwise there are a range of things from declaring senior tech staff to depriving staff from auditing and training - which is revealed in another thread currently. He seems to be in a constant Flap, and I think he is generating them.

Anyhow if you think there is an ounce of truth in Scientology, the external attack is not the way to go. All you will get is a dramatisation. And it is by definition suppressive.

I think he is off hat, off tech, off ethics and off admin. He is also into MEST not theta.

Agreed with the last in particular.

The question is, really this: will his time come before the damage is irreparably great?

Note that there are people here of different persuasions: some think the CoS and subject should go, some the CoS only, some the current management only. We have different reasons for our positions. Mine is simple: I don't care what people believe, so long as they don't hurt anyone else, including "greatest good for greatest number" rationalizations for hurting others.
 

Osiris

Patron with Honors
DM & LRH are, & were, the living examples of why evil people should not be powerful people, because they want to go around killing people who will not bow down to their will, & they go to extraordinary lengths of bullying & threats to cover up their lies & murderous ways.

Where is the Love & understanding & Forgiveness & Sharing & Caring of a Great Leader,

Heaven Forbid what might happen if the Sea Org was a well paid, luxurious lifestyle, & Scientology did not have more Ex Members than members

But don't forget that the Tech is only a very well constructed bullshit to serve the people behind the Pyramid scheme (& in the end will let you down)
 
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Why do you care? Response to You tube video

All of this discussion about Scientology makes me nauseous. Scientology is delusional and run by the same type. Not to sound too callous, but don’t you realize its all doomed to failure eventually? Why does anyone care about stats? Please try not to think so much like a Scientologist. Stats are irrelevant. A billion people can love something and it still be crazy. Remember how many good Germans got swept up in Nazism? Chinese in Communism? Hitler and Mao had awesome stats! The number of Class VIII auditors is irrelevant. The internal workings of the church are irrelevant. Scientology is crazy. Leave. Your survival depends on it. You will move on. There is life after the church. FREE YOUR MIND. Stop thinking like a Scilon.

FYI. I was raised in the church, so I sympathize.

By the way; the video mentions that they were held against their will. That’s false imprisonment and it’s illegal.
 

FinallyMe

Silver Meritorious Patron
That was the third time I've asked this question of x-x in the week and a half he's been on the board and he has yet to present a real solution.

....snip......

PTS, I think you are asking what should be your SECOND question. The first should be, "Do you actually want to see the situation corrected?" Maybe your second question could then be "what internal action(s) do you recommend that would be effective in fixing the situation?" X-X keeps answering that he/she "is doing something," NOT "something effective." It appears that X-X feels his/her duty is discharged by floating pieces of paper to someone - responsibility fulfilled - doesn't know if anyone is even reading them, but that's not his/her responsibility to determine. The only reason someone would take a DIFFERENT step if the first step is not working would be if you INTENDED TO CORRECT the scene -- which X-X clearly does not.
 

thetanic

Gold Meritorious Patron
All of this discussion about Scientology makes me nauseous.

I hope you actually mean nauseated.

X-x is someone who has made 14 posts over the period of 10 days and is just starting to question things. X-x has been in for 35 years and has done OT IV and is ex-Special Affairs staff.

I would expect someone who's been in that long, and gotten that high, to have a high amount of agreement with the LRH materials he or she has studied.

Nevertheless, there are cracks: recognition that all is not well in Scn at the moment.
 

thefiredragon

Patron Meritorious
First a couple of qualifications. Just as in Handbook for Preclears, whether a person puts up with various outpoints has a lot to do with whether they are winning on post and in life. Secondly of course we all know that overts magnify the problems. But that doesn't mean that you can't criticise, you just have to be straight with yourself when you are doing it.

Next, I am still undecided about DM partly because I am not there and getting data second hand, which may be modified by the first paragraph. However I wrote up my concerns and sent them to the RTC, haven't been declared yet.

It is also important to look at pros and cons. People who produce can be #%*holes, its important to look at the product when evaluating them. One good thing DM has done is the Basics programme where people are now reading over the key books of early Scientology. OK if DM is departing from Scientology basics doesn't this set him up by educating people in them?

If we put aside the scenario that the C of S is owned by the CST which has a former IRS guy in it, therefore the IRS actually owns Scientology and of course the President of the USA reports to his Senior who is an alien. Or if as it has been suggested, DM has no senior, then how can he be removed? The same way he got in, by a coup.

Clearly there was a coup prior, those guys who were LRH's personal staff just saw that they should now run the show with no groove in? And also, just if DM got put on post by Ron doesn't make it for life, I met a lady who was running Flag Bureaux on the Apollo for a week before she crashed and burned.
She told how isolated she felt till Ron saw her and put his arm around her and offered a few words of comfort.

Scientology is at the crossroads. Those who attack it are misguided, because it makes Scientologists really mad and more determined and we actually grow during attacks despite the noise and inconvenience. However after 60 years the movement is undergoing generational change. This is a point where all the old timers get another body or not, and I am concerned that the best traditions remain.

For instance I detect a change of atmosphere from Saint Hill. I visited it in '81 and was given a tour of LRH's office. UK was a rich theta place but there seems to have been a change of guard and style. Of course the key to it was probably that it was the home of the BC. Whether it is better or worse I don't know but thats what I get.

I also felt some of the old guard in ANZO got the rough end of the pineapple, such as the CS Dot, when GAT came in.

I had my suspicions of it for a long time, I think it has worked as far as standardising delivery and reducing technical screw ups, but for me it has been mixed. I had good auditing in the past, persistent floating TA on pilot of the FPRD, blow out win on OT 4 that kept me on staff for the rest of the 80's, very OT ep on Method 1, all this before GAT, and a pretty good correction to a rough episode on clear check with GAT after a lot of wasted hours and then some good but not necessarily great auditing after that. Its been ok and sometimes good, to me it hasn't necessarily lived up to the propaganda, but maybe thats just me.

Scientology is now in almost all countries of the world, the Muslim world is the last frontier. If the symbolism can be adapted to the differences of Islamic style then it should go like a rocket. LRH had quite an interest in the Muslim world.

I tend to think that Scientologists as a whole are a body of theta. I respect that group, I am proud to be in it. I am not trying to get you guys back, but I respect the majority of you. Even our fearless leader, Emma (not her real name, I recall her briefly) probably goes on about Scientology because she really wanted to make it and didn't. I don't like to see good people wasted, but it you have decided to leave, by all means do your own thing and I hope you do well.

There is an incredible amount of stress in orgs currently with donations to pay for Ideal Orgs. The theory of this is that Orgs are now corporately owned at the local level. Secondly it involves the field and activates them. Personally I contributed but I can see better ways of building Orgs, the way they used to be. Together with the IAS handing out status for giving money an absolute joke to early Scientology, I see this as possibly going off in a different direction. Thus DM as he is putting so much force into this is going out on a limb himself. If the programme fails, down he goes.

But this is just about Management, and speed of expansion. Scientology will go on as long as people find value in LRH's ideas. It is still the mother lode for me despite the fact that in my time of being "out" I dealt with obvious flaws in his ideas about other things. On Scientology he is an expert, in other matters he did well and had and incredibly wide set of interests but any being's viewpoint has potential limitations.

What is Scientology? It is a project that through truth, undercuts this Universe. It is an incredibly subversive thing. It is theta.


I don't know about that. I'm still doing my doubt formula that I posted in one of my posts.
But this thread made me think. That's good.
I never was very exited about DM.
 

x-x

Patron with Honors
But this thread made me think. That's good.


Thanks Russian Girl.

Code of Honor point 11 "Never regret yesterday. Life is in you today and you make your tomorrow."

Many of us have done bad things in the past, I recall bringing beings to this planet. You can be sure LRH did bad things in his past too. What counts is your intention in present time.

Can these bad things be made good? Yes, because really the universe is an illusion and beings are the only truth. If there was only the MEST universe there would be no way out of it.

Yesterday I was in a small town and I saw an interesting old fence. A horse was in the field about 100 metres back and I felt it put out a beam to me. So I thought, "well I should not avoid this reach, so I came closer and the horse came up to me and I stroked his head. I noticed the being was in the head of the horse. Then the other horse in the field also came up and I went to pat him but there was not the same theta reaction. I realised that the first horse was a thetan in a horse body.

That is a bit of a diversion, but I thought you might be interested in it from your posts.

My advice to you is be a good person. Try to do the right thing in life. Pay your debts etc and try to help people where you can for no reward.

Those are the rules I follow, although I sometimes get lazy and choose not to help people. Help cannot be enforced.
 

thetanic

Gold Meritorious Patron
Those are the rules I follow, although I sometimes get lazy and choose not to help people. Help cannot be enforced.

Love the horse story.

One of the outpoints I see with the CofS approach is to attempt to enforce help. Even for people who wish to leave staff, their help is enforced with repeated "handlings", trying to keep them on post until they're replaced, etc.

It's supposedly worse for the OT VII and OT VIII completions these days. Geir Isene talks about that in this article:

For years, he had been troubled by what he considered heavy-handed practices by managers at the church facility in Oslo and at European headquarters in Copenhagen.

A top church leader screamed at him in 2004, he said, wanting to know why he and his wife walked out of a meeting the previous night when church officials were chiding Oslo parishioners for not contributing enough time and money. Isene said he explained that their young children were restless.

At the time, he chalked up the outburst to stress. But after meeting Miscavige for the first time two years later, he said he felt differently.

It was June 2006, two weeks after he completed OT VIII. Isene was to have a commemorative photo taken with Miscavige. Isene found him arrogant.

"I was coming into the room," he recalled. "I heard a voice that said, 'Where is the guy from Oslo?' I said, 'Here sir.' "

Miscavige extended his hand, saying: "So you are the next ED (executive director) of Oslo Org. Congratulations.''

"I said, 'No, sir, I'm not.' "

Isene was taken aback by Miscavige's impetuousness. They had just met and the leader was ready to throw out the current director and put Isene in charge on the spot.

That's enforced help. Fortunately for Geir, he didn't become effect of it.
 

x-x

Patron with Honors
It's supposedly worse for the OT VII and OT VIII completions these days. Geir Isene talks about that ....

That's enforced help. Fortunately for Geir, he didn't become effect of it.

Unfortunately I am not impressed by this guy. He is OT VIII and can't control his space. I can understand maybe he wouldn't want to do it on the ship, but maybe at some other venue someone will actually confront DM thetan to thetan. I do understand that in some circumstances it is not easy, I couldn't deal with my senior at the cont level and today she still never gives any acknowledgment for anything I do, or did for that matter.

I've never met DM and would be unlikely to, but OT VIIIs would find it quite easy to meet him if they wanted to.

Anyhow to leave the space hands it over to the guy, and also don't they have any concern about leaving the group in general of all Scientologists?
I think some of these people have gone up the Bridge too quickly, they don't have the technical, philosophical viewpoint, and commonly most people don't know Admin tech.
 

thetanic

Gold Meritorious Patron
Unfortunately I am not impressed by this guy. He is OT VIII and can't control his space.

How many OT VIIIs have you met who could? Serious question.

I can understand maybe he wouldn't want to do it on the ship, but maybe at some other venue someone will actually confront DM thetan to thetan.

"Do not give or receive communication unless you yourself desire it."

Maybe he chose not to because at that point, he figured that it wasn't worth his time and effort. I can't speak for Geir, but he does have a more pro-Scn forum than this one is.

I've never met DM and would be unlikely to, but OT VIIIs would find it quite easy to meet him if they wanted to.

Geir did, and that's apparently what made him decide to leave.

Anyhow to leave the space hands it over to the guy, and also don't they have any concern about leaving the group in general of all Scientologists?

Geir's still a Scientologist. He's just not a Scientologist™. You will find that there are more Scientologists outside the CofS than there are in at this point.

There are quite a few who've gotten up to OT VII or OT VIII and bailed, some of whom have been posting on Marty Rathbun's blog or Geir's site. There's also the Leaving Scientology blog.

Any of the links above are warmer, fuzzier places than here, but I like the diversity of opinion and experience here.
 

thefiredragon

Patron Meritorious
the only way removing DM will work if:

If DM for some reason will have to go, a new leader will have to evaluate his stats,right?
The condition of Power Change will work great if before he leaves,his stats will be in danger.Then all a new leader has to do is change all DM's policies that got his stats in danger.
If not,they will have to aply a Formula for repairing a violation of power change.And it will still work. But if DM leaves in normal condition,then it
sucks. They will just continue all his policies.
Personaly,I think,if DM cares at least a little bit about his church,he should
send himself on RPF.Then he could come back and may be have his post back.
I'd like to write a lot of KRs about DM and send it to DM. Not for his own sake,but just so I could have some personal intergrity back.
They probably will declare me SP for sure after that.
 

thetanic

Gold Meritorious Patron
If DM for some reason will have to go, a new leader will have to evaluate his stats,right?
The condition of Power Change will work great if before he leaves,his stats will be in danger.

You've got to be joking.

Go look at his stats. If you come back and tell me he needs to do a Power Change, I'm going to tell you to clear your MUs.
 
G

Gottabrain

Guest
Russiangirl:

Вам все еще имеют затруднения с вашим русским? Я не могу представить как you' ve выдержал в нашей стране настолько длиной без знать язык. Такой стыд о ваших голодая русских детях. Почему вы никогда не отвечаете мне когда я пишу вас в русском?
 

Type4_PTS

Diamond Invictus SP
Russiangirl:

Вам все еще имеют затруднения с вашим русским? Я не могу представить как you' ve выдержал в нашей стране настолько длиной без знать язык. Такой стыд о ваших голодая русских детях. Почему вы никогда не отвечаете мне когда я пишу вас в русском?

GB,
Do you have some Russian in you? :coolwink:
 
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