What's new

Removing DM

x-x

Patron with Honors
Say (just hypothetically) that YOU personally witnessed some of these things and knew them to be true. How exactly would you handle it internally? You say it was a big mistake going to external authorities but you don't give a real solution for how to handle matters internally.

Lets step back from this a little. If you were in the Catholic Church, how would you handle the fact the previous pope stacked the Cardinals with conservatives so as to get the current guy? This is not a unique problem.

Next, I observed over the years that despite in-tech or out-tech, what got a person through up the Bridge was their own postulates. There are people who are getting through. I know several OT 8's, one was my first auditor. I also have a very good friend who has been on OT 7 about 20 years.

You could have an SP that comes through and invalidates many Clears. What gets others through this, strangely it is postulates. The whole basis of blame is electing another cause. Strangely it is this single characteristic alone that is the single most important factor, regardless of events.

Look, if Marty, Rinder had one more senior Exec, lets say Lesevre, they could have stood off DM because the staff would have come over to them. They can't do that now because they are out.

Peoples experiences of the same event can be quite different. When someone becomes upset they can build quite a structure. When they are complaining at length it is axiomatic that something else is wrong because if they had the right why it would blow. Sure I can believe that some of these guys were monumentally mishandled, but I'd also be sure that there is some thing about themselves they are not confronting. As I said above, despite all reasons not to, some people do get through this stuff unscathed, when you are upscale the SP can't touch you.

Now the process of going outside is a little like being in Rome in the 5th century and saying "I don't like our local politics, the Emperor is corrupt, lets bring in the barbarians". These reporters and politicians love people like Carmel and Scooter because they confirm to their reactive mind which is that things must be opposed and invalidated. They pretend to help but they only ever do the former.

I recently went to my AO for a short visit. I had read some of Marty's stuff. I had no withholds on it and as appropriate I was quite willing to communicate it. I was also wanting to inspect the Org, do an Observation mission if you like, and form my own opinion about its indicators. I was highly impressed with the tone of the staff. Sure there are things I would like to change but it is not the overwhelming situation some say. I do have some international comm lines, I have been to Saint Hill and PAC but not Flag. I can guarantee you that I would not be withheld if I was at Int, but I can't say what would happen because I am not there and it would depend upon what I confronted. I have written to the RTC and asked for these matters to be investigated. I don't have a formed opinion, but I do have concerns. I have taken action.

I also happen to be interested in some other threads, I saw one where most of the leading staff of Saint Hill in its boom times had been declared, and also all the class 12 auditors originally trained by Ron. I'd like to read some of the declares as I think it is a bit incomplete. Those numbers would indicate an outpoint as SP's are a minority, and as per a previous reply of mine (I think to Thetanic), you should be judged on your products not on whether you can be annoying. But lets apply the same principle of the prevalence of SPs, most of Scientology staff are good people and do an honest job. Organisations can be misled, crap can go on, but somehow some people get though it. This is what going OT is about. The best reference on it is Axiom 49 "To solve any problem it is only necessary to become theta the solver rather than theta the problem." So all this stuff about external cause has some relevance but when it becomes completely overwhelming, nuh uh. The OT power is in you.
 

Zinjifar

Silver Meritorious Sponsor
Look, if Marty, Rinder had one more senior Exec, lets say Lesevre, they could have stood off DM because the staff would have come over to them. They can't do that now because they are out.

That's total hogwash, and, if you don't understand that, you haven't got the slightest inkling of your 'Church'.

Zinj
 

thetanic

Gold Meritorious Patron
That's total hogwash, and, if you don't understand that, you haven't got the slightest inkling of your 'Church'.

Yeah, well, x-x is new to this, so he or she doesn't know that Lesevre was (still is?) on the RPF along with Heber.
 

thetanic

Gold Meritorious Patron
"I wouldn't expect a declare to happen immediately. I don't know if you've seen the Greg & Debra Barnes story about their KR up to RTC and how long that process took, but I was thinking it had been months."

Speaking of time, that youtube thing goes 2 hours.... After 10 minutes they still hadn't got to the point. However one thing that occurred to me is the comment about issues full of italics. I have an old set of HCOBs. I figure they are good upto about 1965. Then an interesting thing happens, issues after this point are revised and re-revised. Why not the earlier ones. OK I rationalised this that maybe LRH was delegating. You can also notice the cross referencing at the top which was never done before.

Now I don't buy the line that Ron was best in the fifties, he still broke new ground right up to 78 at least. But for standard tech there seems to be quite a bit of fine tuning going on. Again I am not taking an automatic negative stance, I am up at look.

I remember the revision the Barnes mention. That revision was in my hat folder. Essentially their talk was about reporting the out-tech and what happened. They wound up declared over it after even more out-tech after reporting it. Their story is told as it unfolded, thus it's long.

The revision they mention was from 2 Oct 1983, and the one currently used is from 1990.

So it's not really a matter of fine tuning to eviscerate an HCOB by 6-1/2 pages (if I remember the numbers they quoted correctly).

It's not just the HCOBs and PLs being altered though, it's also the books. Get an old edition of any of the LRH books and look at a current copy line by line. Pick a random book, get an old edition off eBay if you don't happen to have one, and really comb through it.

One of the reasons I'd wanted to do the SHSBC was to determine for myself at what point in time I think LRH might have gone off the rails. I've decided it's no longer a point I care about, because what I do care about is current inhumane practices; it isn't really relevant whose policy they are, only the implementation details.

Well its not off tech to get people to go over it again, used to be 3 times over at one stage. But I wrote up to Int in the '90s when I was reading over the Data Series at home, that Saint Hill was a clinic and not training auditors.

Orgs don't make money out of processing, take note armchair critics, that there is a lot of behind the scenes work and session time is precisely timed and that other work is not billed. Orgs make money through training. Saint Hill in the boom days ran the BC and people flocked to it.

I agree: the training of auditors is really the purpose of an org. Right now, they're not doing very well on it, and if they actually want to clear the planet, they are doing sucktastically if the stats are as presented on the friendsoflrh.org site. I find it strange that I care about this, having been out since just prior to GAT. I think the grades are great stuff.

Orgs are instead trying to make money out of processing, and were even when I was still in. Outer org trainees at Flag are being used to deliver auditing to Flag PCs, unmocking the orgs' production in the process. In fact, orgs are being unmocked now the way the missions were in 1982.

I've seen the financial plans of one org and, quite frankly, I simply don't see the way the orgs can pay for that kind of MEST without draining too many critical resources. Now, do I care about that? No. I do find it puzzling.

It's my understanding that only the Class VIII course is done three times through. Not regular Academy levels (I double-checked old checksheets). The point of the program as LRH devised it was to get people to start delivering grades as quickly as possible. There was no requirement for a TRs course. There was no requirement for a metering course.

In the 1970s, there were two requirements:

1) Method 1 word clearing.
2) BSM, Student Hat, or PRD.

If one wished to co-audit method 1, there were no prerequisites for that course, but HQS was recommended.

Nowadays, if one wants to start Class 0 these days, one needs to have Pro Metering, Pro Upper Indoc TR Course, Pro TR Course, Student Hat, and Method One. However, the pre-reqs for the Method One course are the same as they used to be (per the current grade chart, which doesn't list the Basics.)

Training should be delivered on a gradient. The full basics line up includes the Philadelphia Doctorate Course and this is being delivered to raw meat. (note Anons, you are raw meat if you think you are a body, its a humourous but apt description)

The PDC definitely seems out-gradient for a newbie. As someone who was always frustrated by Yet One More Thing being added to my staff TIP before I could start the Academy levels, I just can't imagine going through the runway that exists now. It's longer than it was even for a staff member back then.

Thetanic, I love you. I owe you at least a cup of coffee. I was up in Qual in 1989 looking over some mimeo copies of recent issues and I recall reading the section "Solve it with Scientology" I remembered it as an individual issue. I have searched high and low for this reference for years, asked the Qual Sec at AOSH ANZO, bought new OEC vols. You have found the lost reference for me.

Awww, you're sweet! The funny thing is, I too remember it being called "Solve it With Scientology," and that's why I had trouble finding it. I'd hazard a guess that there was a BPL at some point that excerpted the HCO PL and that has gone by the wayside at some point in the past. That's only a guess.

Just so you understand, the IAS money is used to oppress people here. It's used to send private investigators to intimidate business contacts, employers, friends, essentially cut each and every one of us off from money, family, friends, and meaningful aspects of our lives.

It's used to file frivolous lawsuits against us and delay legitimate lawsuits with childish tactics.


I used to work in DSA, we never did anything like that. We were as ethical as we could be. We had a job to do, its a rough world, but we tried to stick with truth. Did this happen while Rinder was CO OSA Int or since?

Both.

That was a very interesting website COB vs LRH, of course just a few quotes isn't enough to prove that freezone is more on source that the official group.
There is also an issue "Using policy to stop." If DM pulls it off and gets all orgs Saint Hill size, huzzahs for him. If not the buck stops at the top.

I'm not sure the point was to make the Free Zone look more on source, more to point out that the current management isn't following the policies of LRH but rather alter-ised policies issued by the DM regime.

Believe it or not, there are people outside the CoS who are outside precisely because they do care about tech purity. Catch is, some of them argue over what point in time tech purity matters, so....
 
Keep Reading

Lets step back from this a little. If you were in the Catholic Church, how would you handle the fact the previous pope stacked the Cardinals with conservatives so as to get the current guy? This is not a unique problem.

Next, I observed over the years that despite in-tech or out-tech, what got a person through up the Bridge was their own postulates. There are people who are getting through. I know several OT 8's, one was my first auditor. I also have a very good friend who has been on OT 7 about 20 years.

You could have an SP that comes through and invalidates many Clears. What gets others through this, strangely it is postulates. The whole basis of blame is electing another cause. Strangely it is this single characteristic alone that is the single most important factor, regardless of events.

Look, if Marty, Rinder had one more senior Exec, lets say Lesevre, they could have stood off DM because the staff would have come over to them. They can't do that now because they are out.

Peoples experiences of the same event can be quite different. When someone becomes upset they can build quite a structure. When they are complaining at length it is axiomatic that something else is wrong because if they had the right why it would blow. Sure I can believe that some of these guys were monumentally mishandled, but I'd also be sure that there is some thing about themselves they are not confronting. As I said above, despite all reasons not to, some people do get through this stuff unscathed, when you are upscale the SP can't touch you.

Now the process of going outside is a little like being in Rome in the 5th century and saying "I don't like our local politics, the Emperor is corrupt, lets bring in the barbarians". These reporters and politicians love people like Carmel and Scooter because they confirm to their reactive mind which is that things must be opposed and invalidated. They pretend to help but they only ever do the former.

I recently went to my AO for a short visit. I had read some of Marty's stuff. I had no withholds on it and as appropriate I was quite willing to communicate it. I was also wanting to inspect the Org, do an Observation mission if you like, and form my own opinion about its indicators. I was highly impressed with the tone of the staff. Sure there are things I would like to change but it is not the overwhelming situation some say. I do have some international comm lines, I have been to Saint Hill and PAC but not Flag. I can guarantee you that I would not be withheld if I was at Int, but I can't say what would happen because I am not there and it would depend upon what I confronted. I have written to the RTC and asked for these matters to be investigated. I don't have a formed opinion, but I do have concerns. I have taken action.

I also happen to be interested in some other threads, I saw one where most of the leading staff of Saint Hill in its boom times had been declared, and also all the class 12 auditors originally trained by Ron. I'd like to read some of the declares as I think it is a bit incomplete. Those numbers would indicate an outpoint as SP's are a minority, and as per a previous reply of mine (I think to Thetanic), you should be judged on your products not on whether you can be annoying. But lets apply the same principle of the prevalence of SPs, most of Scientology staff are good people and do an honest job. Organisations can be misled, crap can go on, but somehow some people get though it. This is what going OT is about. The best reference on it is Axiom 49 "To solve any problem it is only necessary to become theta the solver rather than theta the problem." So all this stuff about external cause has some relevance but when it becomes completely overwhelming, nuh uh. The OT power is in you.

Good for you for looking and reporting what you see as outpoints. We have quite a lot of upper level folks here that have left who see them too, and want to correct them. Often they reported them, or tried to get ethics in to their Orgs and correct outpoints, only to get shot themselves. That is why many are pursuing their bridge outside of the church, others have decided with their OT power, to do something else more meaningful to them with their lives, something that benefits more of all the dynamics than remaining in the church. It's their right to do so.

Keep reading, keep researching. I'm glad things seem fine to you on your local scene. However that is not what most who join here have found to be the truth for them, with their local scenes, which is why they have left. Look, don't think is a long process sometimes. Stay with it until you get a win. :)
 

thetanic

Gold Meritorious Patron
I also happen to be interested in some other threads, I saw one where most of the leading staff of Saint Hill in its boom times had been declared, and also all the class 12 auditors originally trained by Ron. I'd like to read some of the declares as I think it is a bit incomplete. Those numbers would indicate an outpoint as SP's are a minority, and as per a previous reply of mine (I think to Thetanic), you should be judged on your products not on whether you can be annoying.

I completely agree on your last point.

On the first 54 Class XII auditors, the list is from Pierre's web site:

OJ Roos (Declared)
Liese Klingvall (Declared)
Tommy Klingsvall (Declared)
Mike Mauerer (Departed the Sea Org)
Leon Steinberg (Declared)
Quentin Hubbard (Deceased)
Alex Sibersky (Declared)
Brian Livingston (Declared)
John Ausley (Declared) (Deceased)
Ron Shaffran (Declared)
Merril Mayo (Declared)
David Mayo (Declared)
Jeff Walker (Declared)
Murray Chopping (Declared)
Russ Meadows (Declared)
Alex Gerber (Declared)
John Eastment
Robin Lindsell (Declared)
Paulette Ausley (Declared)
Karen DelaCarriere (Departed the Sea Org)
Gwen North (Declared)
Ray Mithoff
Carolyn Webb
Alain Kartuzinski (Off tech Lines)
Minty Alexander
Alan Stave
Myriam Stave (OT VIII) (Deceased)
Ted Cormier (Deceased)
David Gellie (Permanently ORDERED Off tech Lines by RTC)
Rick Sheehy (Permanently ORDERED Off tech Lines by RTC)
Peter Buttery (OT VIII) (Permanently ORDERED Off tech Lines by RTC)
Claire Reppen (OT VIII) (Deceased)
Bodil Tucker
Tony Rogers
Linda Sydejko
Malin Gelfan
Richard Reiss, Snr C/S FSO
Lisa Rentschler
Carole Schwartz
Rick Alexander (Off Tech Lines)
Jo Struthers (Departed the Sea Org)
Pierre Ethier (Departed the Sea Org)
Jim Sydejko (Off Tech Lines)
Ingrid Keller (Departed the Sea Org)
Peggy Eastment
Ann Glushakow
Edie Lundeen (Off Tech Lines)
Bruce Glushakow (Departed the Sea Org)
Jerome Bloom
Nina Paull
Sheryl Weigand
Hank Bourland
Norman Herring
Sheri Rabey

In particular, it'd be interesting to look at the various articles about Hubbard's son Quentin, including Monica Pignotti's and Dennis Ehrlich's stories about what happened to him from the perspective of people who knew him.

Of course, this doesn't get you the declares themselves, but some of them have been reposted. Here's David Mayo's.
 

Mystic

Crusader
Lets step back from this a little. If you were in the Catholic Church, how would you handle the fact the previous pope stacked the Cardinals with conservatives so as to get the current guy? This is not a unique problem.

Next, I observed over the years that despite in-tech or out-tech, what got a person through up the Bridge was their own postulates. There are people who are getting through. I know several OT 8's, one was my first auditor. I also have a very good friend who has been on OT 7 about 20 years.

You could have an SP that comes through and invalidates many Clears. What gets others through this, strangely it is postulates. The whole basis of blame is electing another cause. Strangely it is this single characteristic alone that is the single most important factor, regardless of events.

Look, if Marty, Rinder had one more senior Exec, lets say Lesevre, they could have stood off DM because the staff would have come over to them. They can't do that now because they are out.

Peoples experiences of the same event can be quite different. When someone becomes upset they can build quite a structure. When they are complaining at length it is axiomatic that something else is wrong because if they had the right why it would blow. Sure I can believe that some of these guys were monumentally mishandled, but I'd also be sure that there is some thing about themselves they are not confronting. As I said above, despite all reasons not to, some people do get through this stuff unscathed, when you are upscale the SP can't touch you.

Now the process of going outside is a little like being in Rome in the 5th century and saying "I don't like our local politics, the Emperor is corrupt, lets bring in the barbarians". These reporters and politicians love people like Carmel and Scooter because they confirm to their reactive mind which is that things must be opposed and invalidated. They pretend to help but they only ever do the former.

I recently went to my AO for a short visit. I had read some of Marty's stuff. I had no withholds on it and as appropriate I was quite willing to communicate it. I was also wanting to inspect the Org, do an Observation mission if you like, and form my own opinion about its indicators. I was highly impressed with the tone of the staff. Sure there are things I would like to change but it is not the overwhelming situation some say. I do have some international comm lines, I have been to Saint Hill and PAC but not Flag. I can guarantee you that I would not be withheld if I was at Int, but I can't say what would happen because I am not there and it would depend upon what I confronted. I have written to the RTC and asked for these matters to be investigated. I don't have a formed opinion, but I do have concerns. I have taken action.

I also happen to be interested in some other threads, I saw one where most of the leading staff of Saint Hill in its boom times had been declared, and also all the class 12 auditors originally trained by Ron. I'd like to read some of the declares as I think it is a bit incomplete. Those numbers would indicate an outpoint as SP's are a minority, and as per a previous reply of mine (I think to Thetanic), you should be judged on your products not on whether you can be annoying. But lets apply the same principle of the prevalence of SPs, most of Scientology staff are good people and do an honest job. Organisations can be misled, crap can go on, but somehow some people get though it. This is what going OT is about. The best reference on it is Axiom 49 "To solve any problem it is only necessary to become theta the solver rather than theta the problem." So all this stuff about external cause has some relevance but when it becomes completely overwhelming, nuh uh. The OT power is in you.

No, let's not step back at all. Let's continue naturally forward.
 

x-x

Patron with Honors
I completely agree on your last point.

On the first 54 Class XII auditors, the list is from Pierre's web site:
In for a penny, in for a pound, I wrote another report to RTC, here is a quote:

"I have come across data which does not gel with what I understand about declaration of SP's. We should expect SP's to be a minority.
We should know SP's by studying their products not by their demeanor. All Scientologists are vaulable and as a member of the group it is a loss if one suffers a wrong indication and is sent out of the group.

The data I have come acrosss is that an alarming number of Class 12 auditors have been declared: They are from the original group trained by LRH, almost all of the first 16 were declared.

On the first 54 Class XII auditors, the list is from Pierre's web site: http://www.upperbridge.org/ Pierre Ethier is a disaffected Class X11 auditor.

OJ Roos (Declared)
Liese Klingvall (Declared)
Tommy Klingsvall (Declared)
Mike Mauerer (Departed the Sea Org)
Leon Steinberg (Declared)
Quentin Hubbard (Deceased)
Alex Sibersky (Declared)
Brian Livingston (Declared)
John Ausley (Declared) (Deceased)
Ron Shaffran (Declared)
Merril Mayo (Declared)
David Mayo (Declared)
Jeff Walker (Declared)
Murray Chopping (Declared)
Russ Meadows (Declared)
Alex Gerber (Declared)
John Eastment
Robin Lindsell (Declared)
Paulette Ausley (Declared)
Karen DelaCarriere (Departed the Sea Org)
Gwen North (Declared)
Ray Mithoff
Carolyn Webb
Alain Kartuzinski (Off tech Lines)
Minty Alexander
Alan Stave
Myriam Stave (OT VIII) (Deceased)
Ted Cormier (Deceased)
David Gellie (Permanently ORDERED Off tech Lines by RTC)
Rick Sheehy (Permanently ORDERED Off tech Lines by RTC)
Peter Buttery (OT VIII) (Permanently ORDERED Off tech Lines by RTC)
Claire Reppen (OT VIII) (Deceased)
Bodil Tucker
Tony Rogers
Linda Sydejko
Malin Gelfan
Richard Reiss, Snr C/S FSO
Lisa Rentschler
Carole Schwartz
Rick Alexander (Off Tech Lines)
Jo Struthers (Departed the Sea Org)
Pierre Ethier (Departed the Sea Org)
Jim Sydejko (Off Tech Lines)
Ingrid Keller (Departed the Sea Org)
Peggy Eastment
Ann Glushakow
Edie Lundeen (Off Tech Lines)
Bruce Glushakow (Departed the Sea Org)
Jerome Bloom
Nina Paull
Sheryl Weigand
Hank Bourland
Norman Herring
Sheri Rabey


Further more out of the Old Saint Hill staff, a great number were also declared. The source of this is http://www.angelfire.com/pro/class12/shill.htm

LRH Executive Director
Philip Quirino LRH Comm Living under guard In Reclusive retirement home
Pat Bloomberg Dissem Sec DECLARED SP (Declared by Current Church Church Leadership)
Peter Hemery HCO Secretary DECLARED SP Personal Friend of LRH
Mike Rigby Dir Accounts DECLARED SP (Declared by Current Church Leadership)
Ken Urquhart LRH Pers Comm DECLARED SP LRH Butler, LRH Pers Comm for 15 years (Declared by Current Church Leadership)
Joyce Popham LRH Pers Sec DECLARED SP (Declared by Current Church Leadership)
Len Regenass: HCO Area Sec DECLARED SP
Joan McNocher: D/Guardian DECLARED SP (Declared by Current Church Leadership)
Dalene Regenass Org E.S DECLARED SP (Declared by Current Church Leadership)
Robin Hancocks Deputy HCO Executive Sec DECLARED SP (Declared by Current Church Leadership)
Frank Freedman D/Qual DECLARED SP Clear #127 Class VIII (Declared by Current Church Leadership)
Betty James Ad Council Chairman DECLARED SP (Declared by Current Church Leadership)
John McMaster SHSBC Course Supervisor DECLARED SP FIRST CLEAR
Otto Roos Ad Council DECLARED SP Clear #25 One of the original LRH trained Class XII (completed A-E of a prior Declare. But Re-Declared by Current Church Leadership)
Pam Pearcy Ad Council DECLARED SP Clear #211 (Declared by Current Church Leadership)
Reg Sharpe LRH Assistant DECLARED SP Clear #7 Personal Friend of LRH
Leon Steinberg Exec Council DECLARED SP Clear #10 Personal Friend of LRH One of the original LRH trained Class XII (Declared by Current Church Leadership)
J.J Delance Technical Staff DECLARED SP Clear #17 Started Scn in France (Declared by Current Church Leadership)
Tony Dunleavy Clearing Course Supervisor DECLARED SP Clear #20 (Declared by Current Church Leadership)
Connie Broadbent Dir Accounts DECLARED SP Clear #29 (Declared by Current Church Leadership)
Craig Lipsitz Qual Staff DECLARED SP Clear #30 (Declared by Current Church Leadership)
Marilynn Routsong HCO Staff DECLARED SP Clear #31 (Declared by Current Church Leadership)
Brian Livingston Tech Staff DECLARED SP Clear #35 One of the original LRH trained Class XII (Declared by Current Church Leadership)
Herbie Parkhouse Org Exec Sec DECLARED SP Clear #55 Personal Friend of LRH Org Exec Sec (Declared by Current Church Leadership)
Anton James Tech Staff DECLARED SP Clear #53 (Declared by Current Church Leadership)
Jenny Parkhouse Treasury Staff DECLARED SP Clear #54 Personal Friend of LRH (Declared by Current Church Leadership)
Virginia Downsborough Tech Staff DECLARED SP Clear #39 (Declared by Current Church Leadership)
Van Staden Treasury Staff DECLARED SP Clear #40 (Declared by Current Church Leadership)
Sheena Fairchild Tech Staff DECLARED SP Clear #41 (Declared by Current Church Leadership)
Jennifer Edmonds Tech Staff DECLARED SP Clear #15 (Declared by Current Church Leadership)
Bernie Green Tech Staff DECLARED SP Clear #18
Gareth McCoy Dissem Staff DECLARED SP Clear #21
Dalene Regenas Tech Staff DECLARED SP Clear #24 (Declared by Current Church Leadership)
Felice Green Tech Staff DECLARED SP Clear #26 (Declared by Current Church Leadership)
John Lawrence Tech Staff DECLARED SP Clear #28 (Declared by Current Church Leadership)
Peggy Bankston Tech Staff DECLARED SP Clear #34 (Declared by Current Church Leadership)
Helen Pollen Qual Staff DECLARED SP Clear #47 (Declared by Current Church Leadership)
Fred Fairchild Tech Staff DECLARED SP Clear #49 . (Declared by Current Church Leadership)
Dorothy Knight Dissem Staff DECLARED SP Clear #50 (Declared by Current Church Leadership)
Judy Gray Tech Staff DECLARED SP Clear #56 (Declared by Current Church Leadership)
Cal Wigney Div 6 Staff DECLARED SP Clear #57 (Declared by Current Church Leadership)
Mary Long Div 6 Staff DECLARED SP Clear #58 (Declared by Current Church Leadership)
Bill Robertson Tech Staff DECLARED SP Clear #61 (Declared by Current Church Leadership)
Linda Nussbaum Exec Staff DECLARED SP Clear #62 (Declared by Current Church Leadership)
Robin Lindsell Tech Staff DECLARED SP Clear #73 Class XII (Declared by Current Church Leadership)
Jenny Parkhouse Saint Hill Staff DECLARED SP Clear #54 (Declared by Current Church Leadership)
Val Wigney Saint Hill Interne DECLARED SP Clear #87 (Declared by Current Church Leadership)
Edith Hoyseth Saint Hill Interne DECLARED SP Clear #105 (Declared by Current Church Leadership)
Roger Biddell Saint Hill Interne DECLARED SP Clear #107 (Declared by Current Church Leadership)
Cyril Vosper Tech Staff DECLARED SP

To close: An SP is not somebody who disagrees with you. I would believe that an review of these declares should occur, and that an investigation of who is responsible for them. We have a Universe to handle, we can't be shooting our own best people. (of course at least some of the declares may be valid, but SPs are 2.5%.)"
 

thetanic

Gold Meritorious Patron
x-x, I applaud your courage in filing another report.

I agree that an SP is not somebody who disagrees with you. Certainly an SP could, but disagreement in and of itself is not necessarily a problem.

That said, disagreements are handled mostly as a case of MUs and O/Ws these days. Not saying it never happens, but when someone says that someone beats you only because of your own missed withholds, it gets to be a bit much.

I'd respect the CoS more if it didn't chew people up and spit them out.

In the preface to Marc Headley's book Blown for Good, Marty Rathbun's forward says there were approximately 8,500 Sea Org members worldwide in 2004.

I'm not sure where the numbers come from or how reliable they are, but this page (and several other with similar numbers) claim that there's now an estimated 5,000 to 7,000 Sea Org members.

More interesting, there are an estimated 25,000 ex Sea Org members.

What does that say about the ability of Scn to retain staff long enough to clear the planet? Many of the ex-SO are declared. Some are dead. Some have been sent home to die so the death doesn't happen on org property. Some are missing.
 

Veda

Sponsor
-snip-

We have a Universe to handle, we can't be shooting our own best people. (of course at least some of the declares may be valid, but SPs are 2.5%.)"

Hubbard - behind the scenes - readjusted that "2.5%" figure upward in other writings.

Nevertheless, the idea - to be presented to "wogs," "raw meat" and rank and file Scientologists - was that Hubbard and Scientology have broad approval, with only a tiny criminally insane minority being a problem.

According to L. Ron Hubbard:

"Suppressive acts are defined as actions or omissions undertaken to knowingly suppress, reduce or impede Scientology or Scientologists.

"Such suppressive acts include public disavowal of Scientology or Scientologists in good standing with Scientology organizations; public statements against Scientology."

Virtually every person who had worked closely with Hubbard, from 1950 onward, ended up being denounced (and many Fair Gamed) by Hubbard, from his (erased) 2nd wife Sara Northrup, to Dr. J.A. Winter, the author of the original Introduction to 'Dianetics, The Modern Science of Mental Heath', to Ceppos, the publisher of 'DMSMH', to benefactor Don Purcell, to L. Ron Hubbard Jr., to first 'Doctor of Scientology' (then equivalent to 'Class 12') Jack Horner, to 'first real Clear' John McMaster, to Class 12 Rocky Stump, to Class 12 David Mayo.

Even Mary Sue Hubbard became a non-person, after taking the rap for her cowardly husband and being sent to federal prison while her husband remained in hiding.

Scientology (and pre-Scientology) has had a toxic core for a long time.

At least since 1938, when Hubbard wrote that immortality is to be obtained only through hard granite, that he was going to smash his name into history so violently that it took a legendary form, and that that was his real goal, and that, if anyone stood in his way, he'd "make Napoleon look like a punk."

"I can make Captain Bligh look like a Sunday School teacher," L. Ron Hubbard, 1969.

The patterns are in front of you. Look at them.
 

Gloria Manchenburg

Patron with Honors
If you were to remove David Miscavige; you'd still be left with "technology" that doesn't work, can't stand up to peer review and will never ever produce complete, standard, reproducible results. The moment you say things like Exteriorizing don't work for "everyone" or "all of the time" that's when you're just a gullible fool that WANTS to believe rather than demands to be convinced.
 

La La Lou Lou

Crusader
Good point Gloria, one of the things I reluctantly got hooked on was the idea of scientifically looking at spiritual improvement. Perhaps thats just an oxymoron. Science doesnt work on 'Ron said it so its true'.

Now I dont see Science and I dont see religion either.
 

Zinjifar

Silver Meritorious Sponsor
"I can make Captain Bligh look like a Sunday School teacher," L. Ron Hubbard, 1969.

The patterns are in front of you. Look at them.

Bligh was an actual heroic sailor, as well as a mean son of a bitch.

Ron was just a buffoon.

Zinj
 

thetanic

Gold Meritorious Patron
Sounds like someone has more reading to do.

True, but there's an overwhelming amount of information out there. If you have very specific suggestions for x-x, that would be more helpful.

Maybe it's the latent Scientologist training in me, but I do think that approaching people at where they're at (rather than making a non-helpful generalization that doesn't address where they're at) is the way to help lead people to see.

Of course, this takes time, and it's taken me sometimes more than an hour to find the information I was looking for -- and I knew it was there.

But, damn it, I do care and so I take the time for other people rather than just making statements like the above.
 

smartone

My Own Boss
OK, lets have a hypothetical discussion here. Let's say that Marty's allegations with regard to DM were true. Let's say that the allegations against DM in the many reports on www.scientology-cult.com were also true. If you read all those reports, I believe you'll answer your own question "How could DM stand up to the top exec strata if they all tried to buck him." What would YOU do if you had been on exec strata? Say to DM: "Sir, I'm ordering you to Sec Checks immediately, pick up the cans!"
You would find yourself assigned to the RPF so fast your head would spin, that's after he finished giving you an SRA. x-x, you KNOW that at least some of those allegations are true. Read these articles:
http://www.scientology-cult.com/table-of-contents.html
They were written by people who care about Scientology as much or more than you do. They worked at the Int Base and were first hand witness'es to many serious issues. It's not just Marty saying these things.
Say (just hypothetically) that YOU personally witnessed some of these things and knew them to be true. How exactly would you handle it internally? You say it was a big mistake going to external authorities but you don't give a real solution for how to handle matters internally.


:thumbsup: I concur Type 4.
 

smartone

My Own Boss
Yeah, well, x-x is new to this, so he or she doesn't know that Lesevre was (still is?) on the RPF along with Heber.

Is Heber really on the RPF? Blimey, I thought he was one of the 'untouchables'. Or maybe I'm too late on the chain here?
 

thetanic

Gold Meritorious Patron
Is Heber really on the RPF? Blimey, I thought he was one of the 'untouchables'. Or maybe I'm too late on the chain here?

Supposedly, he's in the SP Hall at Gold base.

This link mentions: "Xenu TV mentioned in 'Scientology Is Afraid of Anonymous' that Jentzsch hasn't been seen publicly for over 10 years. '92 is thr last mention he gets on the Scino home page."

So if anyone's seen him lately walking freely about, speak up.

He is occasionally paraded out for events like this one.
 
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