repayment: 5 questions

kuanyang

New Member
Hello ESMB,

We are asking for suggestions we could utilize to help ensure our prompt repayment, as well as replies to any or all of the 5 QUESTIONS BELOW. We haven't seen these questions specifically addressed on the ESMB. For ease of reply, we've numbered the questions. We will keep a record of the process and successful actions, and report it to ESMB when our refund is received :)

My wife and I have been out of CO$ for several months :happydance:

In mid July, we sent letter to an AO demanding repayment of funds on account for unused services. Their LRH Comm send us a routing form with request to complete and 3 sections and notarize 1 of them, which we did. She stated she would forward it to the CVB to be processed. In spite of 2 follow up letters to her, we have not since heard from COS.

Because we have not heard from them by today, as requested in letter to them last week, then as promised by us, we will be submitting complaints to the state attorney general, the cities Mayor, and to the counties Department of Consumer Affairs.

From what we've read on ESMB, it is necessary to be persistent. However, it also seems evident that the repayment process will be deflected by the church for as long as possible. My wife and I want to get the repayment ASAP to give finality to our declaration to them that we have permanently resigned from CO$.

QUESTION # 1:
a: what are the laws that state the COS must give repayments?
b: are there legal time paramenters about making repayments after it is demanded?
c: IMPORTANTLY, what agencies, complaints, criminal/civil/or legal action can we pursue, or threaten to do so, THAT WOULD GET CO$ ATTENTION AND ENSURE MORE PROMPT REPAYMENT?

QUESTION # 2: is there a specific PRE PAID LEGAL SERVICE that someone has used and / or can recommend we use. Our thinking is to draft a letter which the attorney puts on his/her letterhead and sends to the church for us. And repeated letters if necessary.

QUESTION # 3: my wife heard or read that the church has gotten into trouble with the IRS for their credit card reg-ing practices. what is the story/facts about this and how can we leverage it in our repayment demands?

QUESTION # 4: what is the policy (HCOPL?) that indicates the church must give refunds?

QUESTION # 5: the LRH Host recently wrote to us that we had signed a statement: "as a condition of being allowed to enroll for religious services, we agree to abide by the church repayment policies." what is that form and when did we supposedly sign it?

WE APPRECIATE AND LOOK FORWARD TO YOUR REPLIES :happydance:


Kyan Yang and Kyan Yin
--
 

Zinjifar

Silver Meritorious Sponsor
Bear in mind that 'repayment' is *not* refund. Any money on 'account' is *your* money. There are any number of suggestions that have proven successful here on ESMB, but, the simplest is to write a letter and have it sent by an attorney demanding a repayment of money on *account*.

Keep your goals very clear. Do not mix up refunds and repayments. Get the repayment of *your* money first; then, if you want to try for the more difficult things, do so.

Zinj
 

BSBuster

Patron
Bear in mind that 'repayment' is *not* refund. Any money on 'account' is *your* money. There are any number of suggestions that have proven successful here on ESMB, but, the simplest is to write a letter and have it sent by an attorney demanding a repayment of money on *account*.

Keep your goals very clear. Do not mix up refunds and repayments. Get the repayment of *your* money first; then, if you want to try for the more difficult things, do so.

Zinj

Zinj-partially right.

In order to get a repayment you have to sign releases that you have dismissed the COS from any further liability to you etc etc. SO if you get your repayment you cannot get a refund after the fact. If these folks want to get it all back (refund and repayment)-they need an attorney-no other way. Even to get a repayment my close friend had to use an attorney and that took a year. My friend did not use prepaid legal.
 
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Zinjifar

Silver Meritorious Sponsor
Zinj-partially right.

In order to get a repayment you have sign releases that you have dismissed the COS from any further liability to you etc etc.

You do not. I'd suggest looking at Kathy (I'm/out's) thead, because she' knows this stuff far better than me.

But, no, you do *not* have to agree to any kind of release. Only a receipt. This is *your* money. Not a 'settlement'.

Zinj
 

BSBuster

Patron
You do not. I'd suggest looking at Kathy (I'm/out's) thead, because she' knows this stuff far better than me.

But, no, you do *not* have to agree to any kind of release. Only a receipt. This is *your* money. Not a 'settlement'.

Zinj

I believe that things may have changed recently--I dont know when Kathy got hers straightened out--but as recent as the past 3-6 months even a hard core attorney could not get around the releases...
 

Zinjifar

Silver Meritorious Sponsor
It's *your* money. You want it back. You don't *owe* them shit except a recognition that you got *that* money back.

They'll keep whatever you let them.

Zinj
 

BSBuster

Patron
It's *your* money. You want it back. You don't *owe* them shit except a recognition that you got *that* money back.

They'll keep whatever you let them.

Zinj

No offense Zinj...but I went through this with my friend every step--and although your philosophy and wishful thinking is agreed upon, the facts are not. COS is much more cautious now than ever--and all the cycles go through OSA and the COS attorneys now....you are not dealing with just the verificvation board anymore unless you are ex SO.
 

Kathy (ImOut)

Gold Meritorious Patron
I believe that things may have changed recently--I dont know when Kathy got hers straightened out--but as recent as the past 3-6 months even a hard core attorney could not get around the releases...

We got our money in 2007. We had to sign our expulsion and a release of liability. Maybe we didn't have to sign those, but we knew we'd never sue and we wanted our money with the least amount of hassle. So we signed. I'd never sue the CofS. I would liken it to living with a rattle snake in the house. Never knowing where it is or when it might strike.
 

Zinjifar

Silver Meritorious Sponsor
BB, I was never in Scn. I have no money on account. I'm certainly not someone I'd recommend as an advisor on 'how to get money back from a freaking UFO Cult' :)

That said; there is *no* legal reason to sign any kind of release to recover 'money on account' from the 'Church' of Scientology. In fact, per their agreement with the IRS they are *legally* obligated to return not only *that* money but all 'donations'.

If someone feels like signing agreements to keep their mouths shut or never ever ask for anything the 'Church' would be legally obligated to refund because they really really need the money right now, I'd understand that and give my best wishes.

But, *money on account* is *your* money and there is no reason to sign any kind of waiver or 'release' and I would think that the mere demand letter should include a demand for ongoing interest, which normally is not accrueing 'on account' which may or may not be legal.

Again though, I'm not someone who's done this, but, I *do* know that the 'Church' has been returning *your* money because they're in a bad situation. That being that it's not *their* money.

Zinj
 

Zinjifar

Silver Meritorious Sponsor
By the way; while demanding a *refund* is an SP Act per policy, demanding money 'on account' isn't, as far as I know. But, hey, being expulsed from the 'Church' of Scientology is a cherry on top, even if you didn't deserve it. :)

Zinj
 

Kathy (ImOut)

Gold Meritorious Patron
By the way; while demanding a *refund* is an SP Act per policy, demanding money 'on account' isn't, as far as I know. But, hey, being expulsed from the 'Church' of Scientology is a cherry on top, even if you didn't deserve it. :)

Zinj

From my experience with my repayment from leaving, it's now an automatic declare. I'd gotten repayments two previous times while still in and never a declare and no threat of one. But my declare actually says I demanded a refund. I wonder where all that money is, because I certainly did NOT get $250K +/- back from the CofS.

And most people won't know that they got declared. I certainly did NOT get my goldenrod from the CofS. My daughter called and told me I'd been declared. I only now have my goldenrod because GT got it for me (the sweetie that she is). However I did get two hand written letters from different terminals at ASHO (wasn't on lines at ASHO) letting me know that I had been declared. So, I guess that made it "true". LOL!!!

Basically, they don't follow their own damn policy, so who would know what is the current policy.
 

Fancy

Patron Meritorious
No you don't have to sign their form. That is a fallacy and illegal and not on their own policy.

IFA has a form that is workable. It came from a kind ESMBer and I changed it to fit the freezone and IFA did a better job of what is done to it.

So this is not true about signing their form. Signe no rights away.

Zinj-partially right.

In order to get a repayment you have to sign releases that you have dismissed the COS from any further liability to you etc etc. SO if you get your repayment you cannot get a refund after the fact. If these folks want to get it all back (refund and repayment)-they need an attorney-no other way. Even to get a repayment my close friend had to use an attorney and that took a year. My friend did not use prepaid legal.
 
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Axiom142

Gold Meritorious Patron
Hello ESMB,

We are asking for suggestions we could utilize to help ensure our prompt repayment, as well as replies to any or all of the 5 QUESTIONS BELOW. We haven't seen these questions specifically addressed on the ESMB. For ease of reply, we've numbered the questions. We will keep a record of the process and successful actions, and report it to ESMB when our refund is received :)

My wife and I have been out of CO$ for several months :happydance:

In mid July, we sent letter to an AO demanding repayment of funds on account for unused services. Their LRH Comm send us a routing form with request to complete and 3 sections and notarize 1 of them, which we did. She stated she would forward it to the CVB to be processed. In spite of 2 follow up letters to her, we have not since heard from COS.

Because we have not heard from them by today, as requested in letter to them last week, then as promised by us, we will be submitting complaints to the state attorney general, the cities Mayor, and to the counties Department of Consumer Affairs.

From what we've read on ESMB, it is necessary to be persistent. However, it also seems evident that the repayment process will be deflected by the church for as long as possible. My wife and I want to get the repayment ASAP to give finality to our declaration to them that we have permanently resigned from CO$.

QUESTION # 1:
a: what are the laws that state the COS must give repayments?
b: are there legal time paramenters about making repayments after it is demanded?
c: IMPORTANTLY, what agencies, complaints, criminal/civil/or legal action can we pursue, or threaten to do so, THAT WOULD GET CO$ ATTENTION AND ENSURE MORE PROMPT REPAYMENT?

QUESTION # 2: is there a specific PRE PAID LEGAL SERVICE that someone has used and / or can recommend we use. Our thinking is to draft a letter which the attorney puts on his/her letterhead and sends to the church for us. And repeated letters if necessary.

QUESTION # 3: my wife heard or read that the church has gotten into trouble with the IRS for their credit card reg-ing practices. what is the story/facts about this and how can we leverage it in our repayment demands?

QUESTION # 4: what is the policy (HCOPL?) that indicates the church must give refunds?

QUESTION # 5: the LRH Host recently wrote to us that we had signed a statement: "as a condition of being allowed to enroll for religious services, we agree to abide by the church repayment policies." what is that form and when did we supposedly sign it?

WE APPRECIATE AND LOOK FORWARD TO YOUR REPLIES :happydance:


Kyan Yang and Kyan Yin
--

kuanyang,

I’m not at all surprised by your story, there seems to be a deliberate policy of stalling when it comes to repayments. They are probably hoping that you will give up. Or, it could be the case that every org is so short of hard cash that they have to stall for time while they try and raise the money from some other schmuck.

You have to be persistent and be prepared to make a fuss.

To answer your questions, from my perspective:

1. (a) I’m not conversant with the laws where you are (USA?) but it seems pretty clear that if you paid money up front for a service that you no longer wish to take, then it is your money and you can request that it get repaid. But, you must be able to show that the money is yours, so you will need payment receipts and statements of your account/s.
(b) Repayments can usually be demanded after any amount of time.
(c) Find any and all agencies, media outlets, consumer groups, politicians – you name it. But getting legal advice is definitely recommended.

2. I’m in a different country so not relevant here.

3. Hadn’t heard that – but Google is your friend.

4. Ref: HCOPL 23 Oct 1963
“1. Refund at once in full any refund demanded.”

Ref: HCOPL 31 July 1966R
“DONATIONS PROMPTLY REFUNDED TO ANY DISSATISFIED STUDENT OR PRECLEAR ……”

5. Sounds like the ‘Religious Services Enrollment Application and Agreement’ form. You should have received a copy of this form which all students and PCs were meant to sign before receiving any services. If you don’t recall signing one, demand that the LRH host show you a copy that you signed. If he/she can’t then you can assume that they don’t have a copy and you don’t have to abide by it!

Even if there is a form that you signed, it is doubtful if it has any legal standing. But, if it does, contracts can’t work one way. If they demand that you abide by their repayment policies, then they have to as well. Their own, publicly published policies make it clear that you are entitled to a speedy repayment.

If you want a repayment, you have to make a lot of noise, go to the local papers, news media, stand outside the org with a sign saying that they are crooks, etc, etc. They hate it if you kick up a fuss. And be prepared to get legal representation. They won’t allow it to go to court but you may have to go through the motions.

When you finally get to the repayment stage, they will try and get you to sign a waiver agreeing to never speak about Scientology and to never protest against them and not to help anyone else to take action (legal or otherwise) against them. You don’t have to sign this waiver, all you are obliged to do, is give them a receipt.

Good luck!

Axiom142
 

kuanyang

New Member
repayment - 5 questions

Thank you to all who have replied to our questions. We appreciate your input and encouragement. We want our repayment and to deliver a blow to CO$.
http://www.forum.exscn.net/images/smilies/thumbsup2.gif

We welcome any other replies, including question #2 about a specific pre-paid legal service someone has successfully used, or would recommend we use, to send letter(s) to COS on our behalf.

Kuan Yang
 
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