Repayment/refund question

In regards to repayments/refunds, I am in the process of requesting them.

I have a few accounts (at different orgs) where I have incomplete intensives. One org has 10 hours of an intensive left, another org has 5 hours left, etc.

Since I have already received a repayment from 1 org, I am (obviously) ineligible to receive any further services at the orgs where I have auditing hours on account.

I have been told (by an org person) that I cannot receive the balance of my auditing hours (in the repayment I am requesting). I've been told that a repayment of remaining auditing hours has to be done within 3 months of your last session.

This does not make sense to me. I am asking for a repayment of auditing hours that HAVEN'T been used - not a repayment of auditing hours that were used. Since I am ineligible to receive services at any CoS, I cannot be serviced the remaining auditing hours on account. How on earth could they keep the $$ for the remaining unused auditing hours, in this scenario?

Thanks in advance.
 

thetanic

Gold Meritorious Patron
Apply for the repayments anyway. If they argue about it, say you'd like a refund on the entire 12-1/2 instead.
 

Dulloldfart

Squirrel Extraordinaire
I have been told (by an org person) that I cannot receive the balance of my auditing hours (in the repayment I am requesting). I've been told that a repayment of remaining auditing hours has to be done within 3 months of your last session.

There is no specific Hubbard policy (that I am aware of) on how to handle unused auditing hours in an intensive when the person requests a repayment. Thus staff who don't understand general policy will tend to get inventive about it.

It does not require a whole lot of smarts to see that the logical thing to do is to pro-rate it, i.e., if you received 3/5 of the intensive then you are entitled to 2/5 of the money back at the rate you paid for it.

Paul
 
I was quoted "HCO PL Refunds Addition", when told that I could not be repaid unused hours of auditing on account unless my last session was within 3 months ago.

I haven't seen this PL but I don't think it even matters because I am not allowed to receive auditing hours I have left on account anyway. If service is paid for but delivery of said service is refused, the logical thinking is that the balance of services would be refunded.

I'd love to find out if anyone has gotten a repayment of auditing hours left of an intensive, or gotten a refund of a course that was incomplete (never finished).
 

thetanic

Gold Meritorious Patron
There is no specific Hubbard policy (that I am aware of) on how to handle unused auditing hours in an intensive when the person requests a repayment. Thus staff who don't understand general policy will tend to get inventive about it.

It does not require a whole lot of smarts to see that the logical thing to do is to pro-rate it, i.e., if you received 3/5 of the intensive then you are entitled to 2/5 of the money back at the rate you paid for it.

That's what we used to do.
 

thetanic

Gold Meritorious Patron
I was quoted "HCO PL Refunds Addition", when told that I could not be repaid unused hours of auditing on account unless my last session was within 3 months ago.

HCO PL 1 August 1966

Very short, but here is the salient part:

"No refund may be applied for successfully after three months from the last service rendered.

This means that a refund applied for three months after the end of an intensive's last auditing session or last day of attendance on a course may NOT be granted."

That said, asking for unused hours is different than a refund. You don't want the whole intensive refunded, just the part they never delivered to you repaid.
 

freethinker

Sponsor
HCO PL 1 August 1966

Very short, but here is the salient part:

"No refund may be applied for successfully after three months from the last service rendered.

This means that a refund applied for three months after the end of an intensive's last auditing session or last day of attendance on a course may NOT be granted."

That said, asking for unused hours is different than a refund. You don't want the whole intensive refunded, just the part they never delivered to you repaid.

Another point here is that it says at the end of an intensives last auditing session. He never received that, so it technically, from the way I see it, is still a repayment on the entire intensive. In Boston there was a TTC'er who left staff before her contract was up. She didn't have a freeloader bill. I asked why that was so. I was told she never completed her training line up so she didn't have a freeloader bill. This is also an example of "stretch to fit policy". Policies are made to fit the desired result.
 

Dulloldfart

Squirrel Extraordinaire
Another point here is that it says at the end of an intensives last auditing session. He never received that, so it technically, from the way I see it, is still a repayment on the entire intensive. In Boston there was a TTC'er who left staff before her contract was up. She didn't have a freeloader bill. I asked why that was so. I was told she never completed her training line up so she didn't have a freeloader bill. This is also an example of "stretch to fit policy". Policies are made to fit the desired result.

That doesn't make sense, in terms of fair exchange (I am assuming for the sake of argument here that if someone pays for a service like an intensive or a course then if that service is delivered in full in the usual manner then that is a fair exchange). A training line-up consists of a bunch of courses, each of which is invoiced separately, even if paid for as a package. It makes sense to me to pro-rate a single course too, although it is not so easy to see how to do it that is equitable and one should allow a fair bit of give and take.

Paul
 

PerfectRecall

New Member
Below is an excerpt from the Church of Scientology's refund policy as stated to the U.S. Internal Revenue Service during negotiations for tax-exempt status:
"... It has been a long-standing policy of the Church that if someone is
dissatisfied with their Scientology services and asks to have their
contributions returned within a three month period, these amounts will be
returned. Likewise, if the person asks for return of contributions for which no
services were received (i.e. an advance payment), there is no three month
limitation period. ..."
Source: http://www.scientology-lies.com/help/refund.html
 
Thanks for all the info.

Another question that occurred to me is that I should be eligible for a refund of any course(s) that I never completed (and am not allowed to complete because I am now ineligible).

For example if I was on Level 0 and I was mid-way through the course, I should be able to get a refund for the whole course since I am not allowed to complete it.

Since the course isn't complete, I don't think the 3 month rule should apply there either. But I'd be interested in everyone's thoughts/experience on this...
 
HCO PL 1 August 1966

Very short, but here is the salient part:

"No refund may be applied for successfully after three months from the last service rendered.

This means that a refund applied for three months after the end of an intensive's last auditing session or last day of attendance on a course may NOT be granted."

That said, asking for unused hours is different than a refund. You don't want the whole intensive refunded, just the part they never delivered to you repaid.

Exactly, thanks for finding that and sharing.

I think the person who quoted this reference had no idea what they were talking about.
 

Dulloldfart

Squirrel Extraordinaire
For example if I was on Level 0 and I was mid-way through the course, I should be able to get a refund for the whole course since I am not allowed to complete it.

One could argue that you received half the course, so are only entitled to half the money. It's not clearcut at all. There are many sections to the theory part of the course that you fully completed, even though you didn't do any auditing. If it were me asking for a repayment, I would be very happy to get back 50% of the cash I paid for the course.

Paul
 
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Elapid

Patron
I know someone who is going through a similar thing with the same stops. I'm interested in know how this comes out... Also, another new ex I know has over $30K on account at FSO with years of statements from FSO showing the same amount due to inactivity. After responding poorly to the new basics push and indicating displeasure with DM, the 2 most recent statements show just a few dollars in the account with no record of what happened to the $. Has anyone heard of this? Is it now a common tactic?
 

Dulloldfart

Squirrel Extraordinaire
I know someone who is going through a similar thing with the same stops. I'm interested in know how this comes out... Also, another new ex I know has over $30K on account at FSO with years of statements from FSO showing the same amount due to inactivity. After responding poorly to the new basics push and indicating displeasure with DM, the 2 most recent statements show just a few dollars in the account with no record of what happened to the $. Has anyone heard of this? Is it now a common tactic?

I hope he kept the prior statements. Sounds to me like prima facie evidence of financial irregularities.

Paul
 

dchoiceisalwaysrs

Gold Meritorious Patron
I think you should be doing all this in writing. Then you have an exact record to refer to.

I assume you are in the USA?

If I was, and was in your shoes, I would write my local IRS taxation office, with something like this.

(change whatever portion to how it applies to you)

Date

I am pursuing a reimbursement from the Church of Scientology at LOCATIONS, for money I paid to them.
I understand there was a 1993 IRS/COS agreement which required refunds/repayment of "donations" paid to the COS to it's clients if requested.

I initiated the request by phone? on (date) and this is what has transpired subsequently.

Date, action
Date, action
etc.

Would you please provide a copy of such document and with the pertinent sections highlighted so I know what is required of the COS per such agreement and within what time frame and under which procedure.

A copy of this letter has been forwarded to the Scientology organizations as previously listed and I hope that with your help they will no longer prevaricate and I can obtain that of which I am legally entitled.

Although I do not know as of yet for certain that the COS is attempting to evade their agreement with the IRS, please consider this letter as in addition to a request for information and help, as a letter of notice of possible contractual sidestepping on the part of the COS.

Thanking you in advance for this assistance.

anonymous11389

good luck with it.

I wonder if Larry Brennan can assist with this.
 
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Elapid

Patron
Excellent advice. We are seeing an attorney about another matter in 15 minutes. I'll copy these advices and ask. Thanks!
 
I know someone who is going through a similar thing with the same stops. I'm interested in know how this comes out... Also, another new ex I know has over $30K on account at FSO with years of statements from FSO showing the same amount due to inactivity. After responding poorly to the new basics push and indicating displeasure with DM, the 2 most recent statements show just a few dollars in the account with no record of what happened to the $. Has anyone heard of this? Is it now a common tactic?

I think there may be something here. I know another person who had quite a bit of money on account at FSO, and recently got a statement back showing a balance of less than $10.

Also included was a statement showing a few hundred dollars in Flag Accommos, and a release and waiver for FSO. Basically, they want this person to release FSO from all claims if they refund a few hundred bucks in accommos and less than $10 in services. Action is being done to identify just how much money was really on account, and there are no plans for this person to sign these release waiver papers.

Other orgs seem to be more honest about account statements, but what I have seen from FSO lately is downright fishy.
 
I think you should be doing all this in writing. Then you have an exact record to refer to.

I assume you are in the USA?

If I was, and was in your shoes, I would write my local IRS taxation office, with something like this.

(change whatever portion to how it applies to you)

Date

I am pursuing a reimbursement from the Church of Scientology at LOCATIONS, for money I paid to them.
I understand there was a 1993 IRS/COS agreement which required refunds/repayment of "donations" paid to the COS to it's clients if requested.

I initiated the request by phone? on (date) and this is what has transpired subsequently.

Date, action
Date, action
etc.

Would you please provide a copy of such document and with the pertinent sections highlighted so I know what is required of the COS per such agreement and within what time frame and under which procedure.

A copy of this letter has been forwarded to the Scientology organizations as previously listed and I hope that with your help they will no longer prevaricate and I can obtain that of which I am legally entitled.

Although I do not know as of yet for certain that the COS is attempting to evade their agreement with the IRS, please consider this letter as in addition to a request for information and help, as a letter of notice of possible contractual sidestepping on the part of the COS.

Thanking you in advance for this assistance.

anonymous11389

good luck with it.

I wonder if Larry Brennan can assist with this.

Very helpful, thank you.

Dulloldfart, I think in the case of a course, you're right...it's tricky. Counting how many checksheet items have been done vs. unfinished checksheet items is absurd.

But the arguement still stands that a service has been paid for, for which further delivery/completion thereof is refused. 50% back seems reasonable, I suppose...
 

thetanic

Gold Meritorious Patron
I think there may be something here. I know another person who had quite a bit of money on account at FSO, and recently got a statement back showing a balance of less than $10.

Also included was a statement showing a few hundred dollars in Flag Accommos, and a release and waiver for FSO. Basically, they want this person to release FSO from all claims if they refund a few hundred bucks in accommos and less than $10 in services. Action is being done to identify just how much money was really on account, and there are no plans for this person to sign these release waiver papers.

Other orgs seem to be more honest about account statements, but what I have seen from FSO lately is downright fishy.

Oh, no release of claims, no way.

Again, filing a police report if one is out is the best way. Another would be to do a repayment.
 
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