Repayment/refund question

Dulloldfart

Squirrel Extraordinaire
Counting how many checksheet items have been done vs. unfinished checksheet items is absurd.

Not really. When I was sup'ing at ITO we had to invoice every single course that a staff member took, just like any org. Although the courses were no charge, there still needed to be a price on it (for when they blew). A few of the courses were on the regular price list, but a huge number, including post hats, were not. We proposed, and eventually got approved a price list. If I'd had my way, the price of a course would be based entirely on how long it took to do the damn thing, for an average student.

My reasoning was that, on average, the cost of delivering a course was directly proportional to how long the student was in the courseroom. So a course that took two weeks should cost twice as much as one that took one week.

And that was how we worked it. There was a basic price of (I think) $10 per hour or $100 a day (yeah, yeah), and the final price was based on what the official checklist length was. That was just to take as many arbitraries out of it as possible, otherwise different people would say the same course takes one week or six weeks or whatever. I couldn't care if the figure was $200 or $500 — it was such a relief to get rid of the dev-t. Before this was done, a CSW had to be approved uplines for EVERY new course, and it was crazy dev-t. This way, the reg could look at the checksheet for a course that wasn't on the pricelist, and come up with the correct price for the course, and it would be the same price if a different reg looked at the checksheet.

Mini hats were $100. Full hats were $500 ( or something), unless they were specifically named on the FSO Price List, in which case we took that price, whatever it was. It meant that some little post had a full hat you could get through in a day, and some exec had a hat that took three months, so it wasn't equitable, but screw it, it saved a HEAP of work.

Regular org courses are not priced like this, by the way. There is a variation of several hundred percent in the "price per day". Stupid. But it's the CofS!

-----

One of a sup's duties at the start of a course is to target it out for completion. If the official checksheet length is five days, then one has to divide it up into five (roughly) equal sections, write the target dates on it, and give it back to the student (with a straight face!). After doing this for years you get to be pretty good at it.

-----

In the light of all that, I don't find it at all silly to pro-rate the cost of a checksheet that hasn't been completed.

Paul
 

thetanic

Gold Meritorious Patron
In the light of all that, I don't find it at all silly to pro-rate the cost of a checksheet that hasn't been completed.

Me neither. # of items completed vs. items on a checksheet, taken as a percentage.

Obviously, if the course was working for the person, they would have finished it.
 

Dulloldfart

Squirrel Extraordinaire
Me neither. # of items completed vs. items on a checksheet, taken as a percentage.

Doesn't work. One checksheet item can take one minute (demo the word "student"). Another can take a month (audit someone through Method 1). There's no quick rote way of doing it. You have to know the checksheet and how long it takes to do different parts of it.

Paul
 
Doesn't work. One checksheet item can take one minute (demo the word "student"). Another can take a month (audit someone through Method 1). There's no quick rote way of doing it. You have to know the checksheet and how long it takes to do different parts of it.

Paul

Good point, some checksheet items take longer than others. Pro-rating it based on knowing the checksheet and how long it takes would be fair, then.

Elapid said:
Excellent advice. We are seeing an attorney about another matter in 15 minutes. I'll copy these advices and ask. Thanks!

Any news on this front, Elapid? Very curious to know. I shall also be talking to a lawyer soon, though it will probably be after the holidays.
 
Does anyone know of a good lawyer to call about this issue of auditing hours on an intensive (or the issue of Scientology repayments altogether)? All of the advice here has been good so far, but I still haven't heard from the Church on this issue. I'm thinking that a letter from an attorney might be the next action I have to take...
 

Sis O' Sign

Patron with Honors
How much is an intensive of Flag only auditing? Like Havingness, Dynamics Sort-out etc Rundowns?

I just found out that I still have 1/3 intensive unused on my account and want to calculate if it's worth the effort of going for a repayment.

The answer I just got:
"Although there is about 1/3 of an intensive left it is not repayable as the definition of a repayment is " returning money because no service has been given at all to earn it". Note that it says 'at all'. So some service was given - 2/3 of an intensive."

Uhmm... maybe my English is not good enough, or my logical thinking, but I would think that if I haven't got the service for about 4 hours of auditing, I have not gotten service for about 4 hours of auditing I have paid for, and they have not worked to earn that money. Maybe I am wrong.
 

Ho Tai

Patron Meritorious
Get a statement of account

I know someone who is going through a similar thing with the same stops. I'm interested in know how this comes out... Also, another new ex I know has over $30K on account at FSO with years of statements from FSO showing the same amount due to inactivity. After responding poorly to the new basics push and indicating displeasure with DM, the 2 most recent statements show just a few dollars in the account with no record of what happened to the $. Has anyone heard of this? Is it now a common tactic?
This person needs a statement of account. Every cent will be accounted for. The statement shows the account balance after every transaction, so you would see where the $30K went. Getting the statement, on the other hand, might be a problem. Persist.

I have heard anecdotal stories of money from accounts being stolen for basics packages, but don't know personally of this happening. It sounds unbelievably gross, but I suppose if you have been up for several days trying to meet your quota you might get desparate.
 
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Sis O' Sign

Patron with Honors
There is no specific Hubbard policy (that I am aware of) on how to handle unused auditing hours in an intensive when the person requests a repayment. Thus staff who don't understand general policy will tend to get inventive about it.

It does not require a whole lot of smarts to see that the logical thing to do is to pro-rate it, i.e., if you received 3/5 of the intensive then you are entitled to 2/5 of the money back at the rate you paid for it.

Paul

That would make sense for me. Okay, so how do I go about this one:

"Although there is about 1/3 of an intensive left it is not repayable as the definition of a repayment is " returning money because no service has been given at all to earn it". Note that it says 'at all'. So some service was given - 2/3 of an intensive."

Just got it in email from KOT Assistant Flag.

So what do I do now? I don't want to put them in the out-exchange situation of keeping my few thousand bucks and never giving me service for that :whistling:

(actually, I would love to go for a full refund of the 2 intensives of Flag-only rundowns, because they didn't resolve that particular problem they were designed to and promised. But it was more than 3 years ago)
 

Good twin

Floater
Okay kids, here's my advice.

Don't argue with the cult about cult policy. It will just confuse them even more and they will be able to make up more shit.

Argue wog law with them. Start by reminding them that they don't want to lose their tax exempt status by violating the agreement with with the IRS. Tell them that your attorney has advised you on how to proceed and that you expect a full payment for any unused money on account or unused hours of service previously debited but not delivered. Remind them that it will be easier for them to just figure out how to make this go right then to face a lawsuit for fraud or worse.

Treat them like the incompetent imbeciles that they are and they will respond.
:yes:
 
This is a pretty good link on the subject by Mary Ann Bosnos,

http://www.scientology-lies.com/help/refund.html

For some reason my browser won't display the page but I copied the text below, I tried to attach it as a formatted doc or html file, but I gave up trying due to the limitations on attachments

Getting a Refund from Scientology

I am not an expert, and I am not a lawyer. However, from reading about other people's strategies, I would encourage you to

write down everything that has anything to do with your refund;
contact your local district attorney and state attorney general's office;
contact the IRS (Scientology promised to grant refunds in their 1993 IRS agreement);
and DON'T SIGN ANYTHING until your lawyer has seen it. In particular, for money on account, you should not have to sign ANYTHING, ever, for a return of your own unused money.
Recently, people requesting refunds have been posting information to the alt.religion.scientology newsgroup, sharing information about their strategies. Check the newsgroup, or browse the archives at Google.

I'll try to summarize successful (and unsuccessful) strategies here in the not-too-distant future.

Using Scientology's Refund Policy

This excellent article was posted to the alt.religion.scientology newsgroup by Mary Ann Bosnos.

Below is the Church of Scientology's refund policy as stated to the U.S.
Internal Revenue Service during negotiations for tax-exempt status. According
to this policy, former members can obtain refunds easily and quickly.

If you want a refund, I suggest that you write a letter to your CoS org and
request one. Include a copy of this policy if you wish. Be sure to keep copies
of all correspondence with the org and make notes of any phone conversations.

If you don't receive a refund promptly, I recommend that you seek the help of an
attorney, who can write a letter on your behalf to encourage action.

Also, if you don't receive a speedy refund, please write a letter (including
copies of your correspondence with CoS) to the House Ways & Means Committee.
This is the congressional committee that oversees IRS operations, and committee
members would want to know whether an organization granted tax-exempt status by
the IRS is or is not adhering to its stated policy. That address is:

Committee on Ways and Means
U.S. House of Representatives
1102 Longworth House Office Bldg.
Washington, D.C. 20515
Attn: Hon. Bill Thomas, Chairman.

The following is the Church of Scientology's written response to IRS questions
as part of Form 1023 filing. This information can be verified at the Exempt
Organizations Reading Room in the IRS office in Washington, D.C. This document
was created specifically to answer IRS questions on CoS public policy and is
available for public viewing and reproduction; there is no indication that any
of the wording is copyrighted material. However, in the event that some
portions of the document may contain material copyrighted by the Church of
Scientology or its affiliated organizations, I hereby assert that the following
quotation is Fair Use because: (1) The purpose is criticism and comment. (2) I
do not conduct commerce of any kind in connection with this quoted material.
(3) The portion of text quoted is brief. (4) My quoting this excerpt does not
supplant demand for the original work nor affect marketability of CoS
copyrighted materials.

If the Church of Scientology attempts to use legal threats to silence this Fair
Use, those attempts will be publicized to the media, to EFF's Chilling Effects
Clearinghouse, anti-SLAPP organizations, the GILC, IFEA and DFC.

BEGIN FAIR USE QUOTE:
It has been a long-standing policy of the Church that if someone is
dissatisfied with their Scientology services and asks to have their
contributions returned within a three month period, these amounts will be
returned. Likewise, if the person asks for return of contributions for which no
services were received (i.e. an advance payment), there is no three month
limitation period. Anyone newly enrolling in services at a Church of
Scientology is informed of the policies and signs an agreement to abide by them.
As a further condition of receiving a refund or repayment, the person
understands that they may not again receive services from the Church.

Within the Church, there are two separate terms: A "refund" refers to a
return of contributions to a parishioner within 90 days of participating in
religious services while a "repayment" refers to a return of a parishioner's
advance payment before he or she has participated in religious services. For
simplicity, the following discussion will use the term "refund" to describe both
types of transactions, because both involve a return of parishioner
contributions.

The Church's refund policy is exceedingly fair. If someone isn't happy with
Scientology -- which is a very small minority of people -- he simply has to make
a proper request for his donations back, agree to forego further services and
his donations will be returned. For the Church, in addition to the fact that
this policy aligns with Scientology principles of exchange, it also serves the
purpose of allowing our churches and the parishioners who are very happy with
Scientology, to carry on without the unhappy few in their midst.
END FAIR USE QUOTE.

Mary Ann Bosnos
 

Panda Termint

Cabal Of One
Okay kids, here's my advice.

Don't argue with the cult about cult policy. It will just confuse them even more and they will be able to make up more shit.

Argue wog law with them. Start by reminding them that they don't want to lose their tax exempt status by violating the agreement with with the IRS. Tell them that your attorney has advised you on how to proceed and that you expect a full payment for any unused money on account or unused hours of service previously debited but not delivered. Remind them that it will be easier for them to just figure out how to make this go right then to face a lawsuit for fraud or worse.

Treat them like the incompetent imbeciles that they are and they will respond.
:yes:
:thumbsup: Thanks, GT, great advice. :thumbsup:
 

Sis O' Sign

Patron with Honors
What do I do now?

Alright, so I took the advice of referring to wog law and not Church policy, and maybe I need some further advice: should I turn to an attorney and the IRS now?

I wrote:

"I do want the unused money back - Flag wouldn't want to get into the out-exchange situation of accepting money for 37.5 hours of auditing and delivering 5 hours less but keeping the money for that.

It's not a huge amount, and I anyway believe that we can sort this matter out without me having to turn to an attorney or to the House Ways and Means Committee. For I am sure you know exactly that in the 1993 IRS negotiations, repayment of monies for which the person have not got the services yet was a key point in granting the Church a tax-exempt status."


To which I just got this response:

"However I believe I said in an earlier e-mail that the definition of a repayment is "returning money because no service has been given at all to earn it'. This is an LRH definition and you can find that in OEC Vol. 4. Note that it says no service has been given at all. An intensive is a service so on the last intensive some service had been given. This is why a repayment is not valid for the balance of the intensive hours."

Any suggestions?
 

EP - Ethics Particle

Gold Meritorious Patron
Ron has a VACUUM!

If she followed the teachings, she wouldn't be asking for her money back. Simple as that.

HOW TO HANDLE FALSE DATA AND LIES

PTS/SP Course Pack said:
...

The handling for a person who has false data on Scientology is to fill in any vacuum of missing data with factual data about Scientology and to prove any lies, rumors and false data encountered to be false.

...

That's what is done here on ESMB!

Splurge on it, Ron! :ohmy:

EP
 

Sis O' Sign

Patron with Honors
You need get cleared first.

I am not going into your provocative game. Have fun somewhere else. If you were a good Scientologist, you would spend your time on "clearing the planet" and you would avoid such "entheta" forums from 1000000000 miles.

Ciao TROLL!
 

Friend

Patron
Hello,
First of all $cientology doesn't want you to know about the 3 months period.
I wonder was the auditing a package deal? Was it debited out of your account as a donation? The money as I know you put on your account for future courses and auditing are not donated yet. It hasn't been assigned to any classification of service. The unused money; was that put back on your account. Please request a copy of your account and see if the money went back to it.
If you have an account I believe you should have access to the status; like a bank account. Do TR 4 and persist to get it, otherwise us a government mediator.
If you finished that specific service; then the money should go back to the account. Otherwise since they couldn't estimate 100% the price for that specific service, then they are taking more than needed. It's call greed if they don't put unused auditing time back on account. Were they asking you to buy bird shit on top of the service and debited that out too; I mean services not needed? I know in my case, they were very eager to use up the whole thing (all paid $$$ service and not to put aside on my account for future necessary and for better use) even though I finished on auditing process. They do it slickly. They know that you sooner or later need more money, because they also put you in situations and mess with you.
Once an academy student needed a P.C. so he, (Allan Blake), could learn how to audit Happiness Rundown and become certified in Happiness Rundown.
I was chosen and we sat next to the Academy. The supervisor and other staff said I didn’t need to pay for it; I only needed to buy a booklet for Allan Blake’s training to fill in as he went. I accepted and I took it as a break from the Academy. Allan Blake word cleared one word from the booklet, but I had hard time to understand it. It was done only in English; I got an idea what it meant but it wasn’t mine.
After that scenario, I was put back in the Academy and the cycle was ended.
Later, other staff that worked with registrar came up to me and said that I had started the “Happiness Rundown” and that I had to finish it. They said if you start something you have to finish it. I had such a hard time with them and I was abused into give them my money. It didn’t matter that I said I never started the fad process of Happiness Rundown. I was staked inside the org and to my job. They never gave up on me to extract the money. I finally gave in and I paid for 1 ½ or 2 intensives, I believe.
I was told that it would be all. I never made it through and they harassed me again until I gave in. I finally gave more money. If, you can’t get your money, why should I pay for more intensives than promised? Besides, I believe they broke their policy on me, just to find money to pay for the Org and staff pay. It was all for them. I am sure they promise too much and they know they can extract more later.
If they call it donation why have a variable; that some pay more than others? Why don’t everybody pay equal amount? All auditors don’t deliver exact the same in time; some are slow; some of them faster; some don’t have the same experience; some are walking around the lion fence; some are inside the lion fence. All the auditors are a variable. I needed more time in auditing sessions because I was studying too steep a gradient; I was not allowed to have native language connection, inadequate existence of materials. I was never authorized to make my own decisions in all my matters; my native languages were never respected. Now you know where I came from. I wish long time ago, I had today’s wisdom.
I still remember a lot from my mid 80-ties when I was young and very innocent.

1. Get a copy of each account statement from respective Org., and get it without justification.
2. Check your account and see where the money is. Hopefully you can see it on the account.
3. Request the money and use the account statements and let them know this is an account and that the services have not been debited out yet and that is your money.
4. Send the request certified mail; so you have proof that you were asking for that money. You might have to write more than one time.
5. If you don't get the account statement, get a government mediator. (Most lawyers don't seem to understand $cientology and it can be costly) Get the mediator to work in behalf of you and use your logic and work with them and tell them you never signed any document that you got all your money from your account and that they owe you that certain amount.
Remember if other people have gotten their money back; then why can they favor some and not all? Everyone should be equally treated.
6. Don't sign any waiver. My government mediator helped me to have my checks re-issued without the print in the back. I only signed to the $cientology that I have gotten all money back from my account. No more; no less.
I did that long time ago. I hope this works now. I still have copy of my account. I have proof that at least existed.
I was unable to return the books and tapes which I didn't buy on my volition. I debited them out and took them out before I went to LA. I was so afraid that the $cientology would keep the money I gave them since I didn't have a proof that my books were not debited out. I had no space at home to keep them; even though they wanted me to buy books I didn't have use for a very long, long time. The 3 months period just passed when I came back from my trip to L.A. I got stuck with the whole library.
If I bought all library tapes, did I buy the content also on the tape? If, so I should have the right to change them to another format, like a CD. Or did I only buy the plastic material in the cassette? That is called “usury”. What did I actually buy? I still have books and tapes never touched and with the box and plastic cover.
I can't recall how many years I had the whole library paid for and not debited out until I felt a threat to lose that money. I didn’t trust them since I was subjected to abuse. It was never an immediate exchange.
When I were in process of my routing form I put on one page the whole sum of money that I wanted back, actually the whole sum. That was my terminating reason. I also wrote them before they got taxexempt and to IRS, but it didn't work. They reasoned that the time of last service had lapsed more than three months.
Now, what about if you finally came to an end phenomena after spending all that money that you were duped? You need to have time to check other sources to find out were you really duped and that takes time.
You know, as soon you complain you are in big trouble and they handle you to believe the opposite. That's how they gain time.
To be a foreign in another country without anybody to help you, it's hard, especially when you had to study English without a connection to your native language. To steep a gradient; and not the right study materials available. Why learn any tech that you are not allowed to use? On top of that I had to heal my body of chest pain and ulcer by connecting the words to my native language. It worked. I did that on my own while I was having hard time with the Org. and I woke up to realize I needed to get out and to survive.
I didn't want to pay for something that would gradually destroy me. My voice was never heard and I tried so hard, just to be put down and misdirected and silenced.
I hope this will help. Good luck! Let me know how it goes.
Please quote if there is anything I missed or something I should know.
I would like other success stories for money refunded.
 
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