Residual guilt

Emma

Con te partirò
Administrator
Reading some stories on one or two other threads made me realise something.

In the smallest, darkest part of my mind, I still, to a very small degree, think that I'm an out ethics scumbag with evil purps in full restim because I didn't "make it" in Scientology.

I still think there is something wrong with me. I still think I'm a bad egg.

This isn't what I rationally think. I do know better. But it's how I still feel sometimes despite all that I know.

The indoctrination runs very deep and very long and plays upon the natural human fears of failure and worthlessness.

Ironically what made me realise this is your stories of crazy justice cycles. I know in my heart & mind that there are some fucking WONDERFUL people on this board. People who I would trust my life with. It's these people who also "didn't make it" in Scientology. It's these people who copped the same inval and eval (pardon the Scientologese). And it got me thinking....

I thought, "maybe it's not just me?" But then I thought "Wait a minute! Why do I STILL think it's about me?" "Why do I still think I'm the one who screwed up?" I do know better than that.

It's amazing what creepy bits of thought fucking are still rattling around after all these years.

After 7 years I'm still peeling it off.

p.s. Scuse the language. This whole thing has annoyed me.
 

acertainratio

Patron with Honors
Reading some stories on one or two other threads made me realise something.

In the smallest, darkest part of my mind, I still, to a very small degree, think that I'm an out ethics scumbag with evil purps in full restim because I didn't "make it" in Scientology.

I still think there is something wrong with me. I still think I'm a bad egg.

This isn't what I rationally think. I do know better. But it's how I still feel sometimes despite all that I know.

The indoctrination runs very deep and very long and plays upon the natural human fears of failure and worthlessness.

Ironically what made me realise this is your stories of crazy justice cycles. I know in my heart & mind that there are some fucking WONDERFUL people on this board. People who I would trust my life with. It's these people who also "didn't make it" in Scientology. It's these people who copped the same inval and eval (pardon the Scientologese). And it got me thinking....

I thought, "maybe it's not just me?" But then I thought "Wait a minute! Why do I STILL think it's about me?" "Why do I still think I'm the one who screwed up?" I do know better than that.

It's amazing what creepy bits of thought fucking are still rattling around after all these years.

After 7 years I'm still peeling it off.

p.s. Scuse the language. This whole thing has annoyed me.

Sounds to me that you are being very honest with your self and others about where you've been and where you are. Forgive the eval, but let yourself get good and angry - it's very cleansing.
 

GoButtonIsBlowButton

Patron with Honors
Guilt

That's the glue of the trap.

You have skills, a willingness to help, and a willingness to sacrifice to help. Then you're squeezed with an organization that can never work and never change. The goal, therefore, can never be reached, since it is a recipe for failure. Each failure has an insidious mechanism to turn the finger of guilt always towards the pointer --

"I worked 90 hours this week and was paid $13. How did I fail? I should feel guilty... look at all my overts and withholds, which others are reading now. I must tell people how sorry I am by demeaning myself with a public confession signing. I must work harder. The recipe for perfection has been taught me, and yet my cake always falls -- I'm a bad cook! My family/boyfriend/husband/friend is appalled at this. I'm criminal for having associated with them and must discard them. Maybe a billion year commitment will purify my evil intentions."

And when you quit, fall sick, get old or infirm, you're discarded like used Kleenex, and sent a bill for your efforts.

This is STALINIST and evil. Anon, ESMB, other good people, and the internet will put this evil in the dustbin of history, to coin a phrase, and without becoming Borg 2.0 (right, Ron's Org?).
 

Pixie

Crusader
Reading some stories on one or two other threads made me realise something.

In the smallest, darkest part of my mind, I still, to a very small degree, think that I'm an out ethics scumbag with evil purps in full restim because I didn't "make it" in Scientology.

I still think there is something wrong with me. I still think I'm a bad egg.

This isn't what I rationally think. I do know better. But it's how I still feel sometimes despite all that I know.

The indoctrination runs very deep and very long and plays upon the natural human fears of failure and worthlessness.

Ironically what made me realise this is your stories of crazy justice cycles. I know in my heart & mind that there are some fucking WONDERFUL people on this board. People who I would trust my life with. It's these people who also "didn't make it" in Scientology. It's these people who copped the same inval and eval (pardon the Scientologese). And it got me thinking....

I thought, "maybe it's not just me?" But then I thought "Wait a minute! Why do I STILL think it's about me?" "Why do I still think I'm the one who screwed up?" I do know better than that.

It's amazing what creepy bits of thought fucking are still rattling around after all these years.

After 7 years I'm still peeling it off.

p.s. Scuse the language. This whole thing has annoyed me.

Sure Emma, I can understand that totally. I still feel.. well not so much 'guilty', but a failure for sure. It's like when you're being told if you don't make it in scientology then you could never make it in the wog world still rolls around in my mind, also there's the feeling still sometimes about what am I doing to help the planet.. er like it's totally my responsibility.

Last night though I also had a huge realization, the video of the CIA agent who's working with Anon, I remarked how great and how cool I thought he was, then someone made a statement back to me "Trust but Verify". It was GlowButtonBoGoButtonIsTooManyButtons said it in fact. :p

Now similar things have been said to me before, but that line really stopped me in my tracks, I am STILL believing almost everything I'm being told, and that's a little worrying to say the least...so it dawned on me that before the cult, I had little trust in humanity having been let down quite a bit starting with my parent so was always a little guarded, yet soon into the cult, I was trusting anything and everything I was told or read. What happens here? Even though I've woken up, (ok in your case 7 years, in mine 7 months) I am still for some reason just not using my critical faculties and that's VERY scary.

I know this story possibly belongs on the thread about who you were then and who you are now and all that jazz but it's a realization nonetheless and for me, a huge one. Trust but Verify, this may sound normal to most, but for me, I didn't see it until last night and I'm still quite blown away by it.

None of us here are scumbags, anyone who went into scientology staff or sea arrgh had balls of steal and hearts of gold. Who would work like dogs for nothing except wanting to help mankind, I said this before, we are the cream of the crop, the creme de la creme, and you just have to keep telling yourself that, however, I know what it's like to feel like shit most days, and sure, I still feel like a failure, when something's said over and over and over, it must just get imbedded deep down in there somewhere and I just don't know what it would take to erase it.
 

Pixie

Crusader
That's the glue of the trap.

You have skills, a willingness to help, and a willingness to sacrifice to help. Then you're squeezed with an organization that can never work and never change. The goal, therefore, can never be reached, since it is a recipe for failure. Each failure has an insidious mechanism to turn the finger of guilt always towards the pointer --

"I worked 90 hours this week and was paid $13. How did I fail? I should feel guilty... look at all my overts and withholds, which others are reading now. I must tell people how sorry I am by demeaning myself with a public confession signing. I must work harder. The recipe for perfection has been taught me, and yet my cake always falls -- I'm a bad cook! My family/boyfriend/husband/friend is appalled at this. I'm criminal for having associated with them and must discard them. Maybe a billion year commitment will purify my evil intentions."

And when you quit, fall sick, get old or infirm, you're discarded like used Kleenex, and sent a bill for your efforts.

This is STALINIST and evil. Anon, ESMB, other good people, and the internet will put this evil in the dustbin of history, to coin a phrase, and without becoming Borg 2.0 (right, Ron's Org?).

Very well said! :clap:
 

Emma

Con te partirò
Administrator
None of us here are scumbags, anyone who went into scientology staff or sea arrgh had balls of steal and hearts of gold. Who would work like dogs for nothing except wanting to help mankind, I said this before, we are the cream of the crop, the creme de la creme, and you just have to keep telling yourself that, however, I know what it's like to feel like shit most days, and sure, I still feel like a failure, when something's said over and over and over, it must just get imbedded deep down in there somewhere and I just don't know what it would take to erase it.

That is the very definition of Brainwashing or thought control.

You have the facts, you know the truth, yet you are conditioned to react or think in a way that belies sanity.
 

Pixie

Crusader
That is the very definition of Brainwashing or thought control.

You have the facts, you know the truth, yet you are conditioned to react or think in a way that belies sanity.

Yes, that's it, that really is the definition of 'brainwashing' isn't it, good god, and it's so bloody subtle, gee whiz.. I feel like somethings moving in my brain here.. :dizzy: :headspin: the only thing one can do is be present and fully aware at all times.. easier said than done! And then if that was the case and one could in fact achieve that state it wouldn't matter because then you'd be truely enlightened..:cloud9: Mmm.. much food for thought here.. thanks Emma.:)
 

Neo

Silver Meritorious Patron
Reading some stories on one or two other threads made me realise something.

In the smallest, darkest part of my mind, I still, to a very small degree, think that I'm an out ethics scumbag with evil purps in full restim because I didn't "make it" in Scientology.

I still think there is something wrong with me. I still think I'm a bad egg.

You put this site together, and you run it, and manage it, so we can use it and benefit from it. I think that takes some doing. And it's existence is the biggest influence in me getting out of the Cult.

Scientology is set up in such a way that good people fail at it. It clashes with their innate sense of justice.

I understand the sense of failure. But for what its worth, I wouldn't use Scientology as your measuring stick as to what counts as failure, and what doesn't (refer to paragraph one of my post).

I would argue that that which you set out to achieve in Scientology, which I assume has a lot to do with helping others, and making a difference, is in fact being achieved, in part through this message board.

:)
 

Emma

Con te partirò
Administrator
You put this site together, and you run it, and manage it, so we can use it and benefit from it. I think that takes some doing. And it's existence is the biggest influence in me getting out of the Cult.

Scientology is set up in such a way that good people fail at it. It clashes with their innate sense of justice.

I understand the sense of failure. But for what its worth, I wouldn't use Scientology as your measuring stick as to what counts as failure, and what doesn't (refer to paragraph one of my post).

I would argue that that which you set out to achieve in Scientology, which I assume has a lot to do with helping others, and making a difference, is in fact being achieved, in part through this message board.

:)

Thanks Neo, I know what you are saying and I agree.

I probably made it seem that I feel this way all the time and it affects me.

It doesn't. But it's there. It STILL FUCKING WELL THERE. That is what annoys me. That I've been implanted with an idea that I'm a failure. It pisses me off that a group can get away with this.

Don't get me wrong. I'm happy! My life is great now. But just tonight I realised that there is still a Scn idea stuck in my head that makes me feel guilty and that I'm a failure.

Bastards!!
 

Neo

Silver Meritorious Patron
Thanks Neo, I know what you are saying and I agree.

I probably made it seem that I feel this way all the time and it affects me.

It doesn't. But it's there. It STILL FUCKING WELL THERE. That is what annoys me. That I've been implanted with an idea that I'm a failure. It pisses me off that a group can get away with this.

Don't get me wrong. I'm happy! My life is great now. But just tonight I realised that there is still a Scn idea stuck in my head that makes me feel guilty and that I'm a failure.

Bastards!!

I'm glad you are happy, and I know you are. I understood your post in its context. Just thought I'd speak my mind, because I too understand the latent control the Church seems to have. I have felt it to some degree, also.

Even more reason why the Cult needs to be brought to justice :whistling:
 

GoButtonIsBlowButton

Patron with Honors
Pixie, I guess this means I'll never get laid...

Ronald Reagan, an American president widely credited with standing toe to toe with the evil that was the Stalinist Soviet Union and sending it packing, told them he would sign a weapons treaty with them, but would "Trust, but verify." He would sign, but then send the satellites in to be sure they were really dismantling their nuclear weapons. He cheerfully moved ahead, while the media and others were telling him his statements would make things worse.

I'd love to tell ya that I thought of that great line, but, no, a great opponent of evil, Ronald Reagan, did. (So I guess that bj's out of the question?)

He also had another great line, ''The march of freedom and democracy . . . will leave Marxist Leninism on the ash heap** of history.''

We can all take a lesson from this recent history in how to cheerfully confront this Borg evil. And not feel at all guilty about it!


**[Lenin, one of the true troublemakers and killers of the 20th century, told the capitalists in Russia that they were destined for the 'dust bin of history' (he later had them all shot). Reagan, in using the above phrase, put velvet on a hard titanium hammer, and, to the everlasting gratitude of the world, hastened the non-violent destruction of the most evil government in the history of the world. Reagan knew the power of words!]
 

Bea Kiddo

Crusader
Going through this too. And guilt transfers to anger and short-temperedness sometimes.

I think I finally started to be able to take things into perspective. Maybe. Or just a little, and it seems to help.

There are many people who dont have enough food to eat, or even clean water to drink. Many in third world countries that the average citizen is unaware of (be it America, British, Australian or even the European countries).

We have come a long way in 10,000 years.

Instead of failure, lets think of progress.
 

Alanzo

Bardo Tulpa
The Scientology Guilt Implant

It's funny that just yesterday I uncovered another guilt-implant from Scientology - after 7 years of being out.

There is an implant in Scientology that if you were involved in any kind of immoral activity, or had committed some kind of overt, then you would believe that you did not DESERVE to survive, and you would sabotage your own happiness and success.

This isn't some MU I had, or some crazy interpretation I dreamed up from my reactive mind, this comes straight out of the essay called "Ethics, Justice and the Dynamics."

Anybody with any sense at all can look around and see that this datum, that a person will stop himself if he commits an overt or is involved in something immoral, is completely false. Your success depends on what you DO, not what you've done, or what you feel guilty or shameful about. Look around you, there are all kinds of happy scumbags rolling in wealth and success.

As I've said before, a Scientologist will often believe in one of Hubbard's "discoveries" (implants) and then dramatize it. And that's what I've been doing to myself since 1985, when I first read this essay on the Introduction to Scientology Ethics course.

My success and my effectiveness has absolutely nothing to do with my past, or how I feel about it. It has to do only with what I do, here and now and in the future.

If you've ever studied interrogation, you know that the interrogator must make the act of confessing appear to have more benefit to you than the consequences you face for the crimes you confess. If the interrogator can not make the act of confessing appear more beneficial to you than avoiding the consequences of confessing (jail time, loss of property, and even execution), then no one would ever confess anything.

So Hubbard gave us all that guilt implant (I do not DESERVE success because I've committed an overt) because, having so many crimes against Scientologists, he became paranoid that he would get found out. He needed to see and hear what everybody was thinking and talking about. He had to document their crimes so he had something on them if they should one day wake up and start telling other people what they realized. And so he had to align the benefits of sec checking with your happiness, success and even immortality.

He connected the benefit of confessing all your "crimes" to your own success and happiness in life. He told you that if you did not confess EVERYTHING, then all kinds of horrible things will befall you, and you will never achieve wealth, happiness and immortality because YOU WILL BELIEVE, DEEP DOWN, THAT YOU DO NOT DESERVE IT AND YOU WILL SABOTAGE YOURSELF (that's the exact implant).

But - through sec checking - you will have all these, as long you tell ALL.

The fact is that if you have committed an overt, or have done something for which you feel shame, IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH WHETHER YOU CAN SUCCEED OR HAVE HAPPINESS IN THE PRESENT OR IN THE FUTURE.

L Ron Hubbard was a sick and cruel human being. And I can't believe I let a person like that so deeply into my mind.

Ethics and morality have nothing to do with success!

Just look at L Ron Hubbard!
 
Last edited:

Pixie

Crusader
Ronald Reagan, an American president widely credited with standing toe to toe with the evil that was the Stalinist Soviet Union and sending it packing, told them he would sign a weapons treaty with them, but would "Trust, but verify." He would sign, but then send the satellites in to be sure they were really dismantling their nuclear weapons. He cheerfully moved ahead, while the media and others were telling him his statements would make things worse.

I'd love to tell ya that I thought of that great line, but, no, a great opponent of evil, Ronald Reagan, did. (So I guess that bj's out of the question?)

He also had another great line, ''The march of freedom and democracy . . . will leave Marxist Leninism on the ash heap** of history.''

We can all take a lesson from this recent history in how to cheerfully confront this Borg evil. And not feel at all guilty about it!


**[Lenin, one of the true troublemakers and killers of the 20th century, told the capitalists in Russia that they were destined for the 'dust bin of history' (he later had them all shot). Reagan, in using the above phrase, put velvet on a hard titanium hammer, and, to the everlasting gratitude of the world, hastened the non-violent destruction of the most evil government in the history of the world. Reagan knew the power of words!]

Thanks for that, I really do appreciate it. I wasn't aware Regan said it, however at the end of the day, YOU decided to say it to ME, and it's had a huge impact on me and I am most grateful. That's an interesting piece of history there which I also wasn't aware of.

As for getting laid, perhaps when you do find out exactly what sex you are it might be easier for you to find the appropriate opportunity.. :D
 

Emma

Con te partirò
Administrator
It's funny that just yesterday I uncovered another guilt-implant from Scientology - after 7 years of being out.

There is an implant in Scientology that if you were involved in any kind of immoral activity, or had committed some kind of overt, then you would believe that you did not DESERVE to survive, and you would sabotage your own happiness and success.

This isn't some MU I had, or some crazy interpretation I dreamed up from my reactive mind, this comes straight out of the essay called "Ethics, Justice and the Dynamics."

Anybody with any sense at all can look around and see that this datum, that a person will stop himself if he commits an overt or is involved in something immoral, is completely false. Your success depends on what you DO, not what you've done, or what you feel guilty or shameful about. Look around you, there are all kinds of happy scumbags rolling in wealth and success.

As I've said before, a Scientologist will often believe in one of Hubbard's "discoveries" (implants) and then dramatize it. And that's what I've been doing to myself since 1985, when I first read this essay on the Introduction to Scientology Ethics course.

My success and my effectiveness has absolutely nothing to do with my past, or how I feel about it. It has to do only with what I do, here and now and in the future.

If you've ever studied interrogation, you know that the interrogator must make the act of confessing appear to have more benefit to you than the consequences you face for the crimes you confess. If the interrogator can not make the act of confessing appear more beneficial to you than avoiding the consequences of confessing (jail time, loss of property, and even execution), then no one would ever confess anything.

So Hubbard gave us all that guilt implant (I do not DESERVE success because I've committed an overt) because, having so many crimes against Scientologists, he became paranoid that he would get found out. He needed to see and hear what everybody was thinking and talking about. He had to document their crimes so he had something on them if they should one day wake up and start telling other people what they realized. And so he had to align the benefits of sec checking with your happiness, success and even immortality.

He connected the benefit of confessing all your "crimes" to your own success and happiness in life. He told you that if you did not confess EVERYTHING, then all kinds of horrible things will befall you, and you will never achieve wealth, happiness and immortality because YOU WILL BELIEVE, DEEP DOWN, THAT YOU DO NOT DESERVE IT (that's the exact implant).

But - through sec checking - you will have all these, as long you tell ALL.

The fact is that if you have committed an overt, or have done something for which you feel shame, IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH WHETHER YOU CAN SUCCEED OR HAVE HAPPINESS IN THE FUTURE.

L Ron Hubbard was a sick and cruel human being. And I can't believe I let a person like that so deeply into my mind.

Morality has nothing to do with success!

Look at L Ron Hubbard!

Wow. We all seem to uncover different things at different times on this journey.

Nice that you saw this Alanzo. It's slightly peturbing that you realised this whilst wearing a pink dress and tiara.
 

Bea Kiddo

Crusader
Wow. We all seem to uncover different things at different times on this journey.

Nice that you saw this Alanzo. It's slightly peturbing that you realised this whilst wearing a pink dress and tiara.

Maybe the greatest realizations happen in such attire. I shall don one now!!!!!!!:whistling:
 

diablo

Patron
Reading some stories on one or two other threads made me realise something.

In the smallest, darkest part of my mind, I still, to a very small degree, think that I'm an out ethics scumbag with evil purps in full restim because I didn't "make it" in Scientology.

I still think there is something wrong with me. I still think I'm a bad egg.

This isn't what I rationally think. I do know better. But it's how I still feel sometimes despite all that I know.

The indoctrination runs very deep and very long and plays upon the natural human fears of failure and worthlessness.

Ironically what made me realise this is your stories of crazy justice cycles. I know in my heart & mind that there are some fucking WONDERFUL people on this board. People who I would trust my life with. It's these people who also "didn't make it" in Scientology. It's these people who copped the same inval and eval (pardon the Scientologese). And it got me thinking....

I thought, "maybe it's not just me?" But then I thought "Wait a minute! Why do I STILL think it's about me?" "Why do I still think I'm the one who screwed up?" I do know better than that.

It's amazing what creepy bits of thought fucking are still rattling around after all these years.

After 7 years I'm still peeling it off.

p.s. Scuse the language. This whole thing has annoyed me.

Wow Emma, I am related. Still after a while out I still think I wasn't good enough but you know what? every body got in Scn because they (we) thought the World needed a hand, a lot of people here are pure Gold and I am sure you are also. I know sometimes is difficult to get rid off the image: The best place in the world.... The best sensation ever was inside on your own winings, and can't be possible you are a loser about that? well lady, I will tell you this:
- Thank you Emma. :) thank you very much for thinking so hard about the world, my world and your world deserved a better place and being on a better shape, I do relate. Thanks because you didn't think about yourself for years and were devoted to save the planet, your intention was very well recieved and I am so happy to be here with you. -
(this is also to all ex-staff and ex-Sea Org)

I love my world, my planet, my fellow humans, and I am proud to be among those who despite the rough things thought it was worthy... It was worthy in deed. A lot. We learned a lot and wont be so naive since then. We know how good the man can be for real... but also know how evil can be injustice... We should grow and be stronger... We should have success, expansion and everything we wanted.

Jews goes to Israel to do community working, we went into a worst situation to make the world a better place, so bad is not well runned and well directed, but actually bieng there and being out alive is enough test, is enough for all.

I am proud of the people who still got some remoars after being out due they are very good people, PURE GOLD. THE KIND OF PEOPLE THIS WORLD NEEDS BUT NOT BEING ON SCIENTOLOGY, BUT BEING NEEDED HAVING SUCCESS IN LIFE, Why? just because the whole existance of mankind depend on their view point in order to make the future a bright future.

THANKS GUYS FOR TRYING TO SAVE MY WORLD. :)

See ya!:)
 
Last edited:

Pixie

Crusader
Wow Alanzo, that's an incredible realization, very deep.. in fact I'm going to read it again.. thanks and very well said..

Yes, there is in fact this underlying believe that I've done something wrong and underneath that comes the unworthiness and undeservability.. gosh I'm really getting my mind blown this last 24 hours for sure.. much food for thought again.. thank you for such clarity. And when you've been locked in a room for days on end and ordered to "confess your crimes" you begin to believe that they know something about you that you don't cos you just can't find any but by the time you get out you're feeling like a criminal anyway and that feeling stays with you.. well I still feel that.. and even though I know what you're saying is right, how does one stop feeling like.. right you said it, you DO.. ok well incase I start rambling I shall take my leave.. thanks again..
 
Top