Residual guilt

Mick Wenlock

Admin Emeritus (retired)
I beg to differ. In my experience, auditing works if it's applied properly.

well thats a circular piece of reasoning (WADR)* - and is the usual "explanation" trotted out by the cofs to explain away why so many people leave and so many people find that it does not "work".

A)"auditing always works if it's correctly applied"

B) "if it didn't work then it was incorrectly applied"

This falls under Heinlein's great example of how prayer "works".

"If you pray long enough water will run uphill"

"How long do you have to pray?"

"Until the water runs uphill"

If auditing "worked" large parts of Los Angeles, Milan and Clearwater would be full of ocean going geniuses who never get sick, make the best possible decisions about anything and everything, can move objects with telekinesis (so there are never any accidents) and who routinely, thanks to their mega IQ's, make scientific breakthroughs that benefit mankind. Problems would not exist long enough to become problems and no-one would ever make someone else wrong.

*WADR = With All Due Respect
 

SchwimmelPuckel

Genuine Meatball
If auditing "worked" large parts of Los Angeles, Milan and Clearwater would be full of ocean going geniuses who never get sick, make the best possible decisions about anything and everything, can move objects with telekinesis (so there are never any accidents) and who routinely, thanks to their mega IQ's, make scientific breakthroughs that benefit mankind. Problems would not exist long enough to become problems and no-one would ever make someone else wrong.
And that aught to end the discussion! - There it is, right under yer' nose.. For all to see.. Get the nose out of the way and OBNOSE it!

:yes:
 

Cat's Squirrel

Gold Meritorious Patron
And that aught to end the discussion! - There it is, right under yer' nose.. For all to see.. Get the nose out of the way and OBNOSE it!

:yes:

It doesn't though, because those particular goals are unrealistic.

OK, put it another way. Would you say medicine doesn't work just because everyone dies sooner or later? Similarly, you can't say auditing doesn't work just because people don't have OT abilities.

If you have some auditing sessions and end up with gains, i.e. you feel better, have more energy, can get on with others more easily, your memory improves, you can resolve problems better and don't need to make others wrong - just the few Grade EPs I can think of now - then auditing has worked for you. Don't ask me what the EPs of the OT levels are except OT1, "able to spot the existence of other people".
 

Veda

Sponsor
To begin with, it's probably a good idea to ask which definition of "auditing" the person is using - or to ask exactly what is meant by the word "auditing."

"Which auditing?" Or "What type of auditing," exactly?

Once it's understood what the person means by the word "auditing," then the follow up question would be something like, "Works?" "Works to what end or result, specifically?"

Usually, with Scientologists, it's pretty vague, and it's not uncommon to find Scientologists who have only a partial understanding of - or familiarity with - the subject.
 

nexus100

Gold Meritorious Patron
It doesn't though, because those particular goals are unrealistic.

OK, put it another way. Would you say medicine doesn't work just because everyone dies sooner or later? Similarly, you can't say auditing doesn't work just because people don't have OT abilities.

If you have some auditing sessions and end up with gains, i.e. you feel better, have more energy, can get on with others more easily, your memory improves, you can resolve problems better and don't need to make others wrong - just the few Grade EPs I can think of now - then auditing has worked for you. Don't ask me what the EPs of the OT levels are except OT1, "able to spot the existence of other people".

Wow. Isn't that a bit of a corner to put oneself in? I have had all of the above benefits from a walking program. And I'd have to dig myself a pretty deep hole to feel that I haven't spotted the existence of other people since birth. No doubt there are clairvoyances and discoveries attached to these, and of course we're all different. But the more one must paint the worse the wall looked.
 

Cat's Squirrel

Gold Meritorious Patron
Sure. Anything that raises your tone (and walking does that if it's at all demanding) is going to key things out, especially if you're walking in Nature, and that's good. Other things will too, like a love affair for example. But once you quit walking, the girl dumps you etc., the shadows return.

Auditing allows you to clear up case by spotting its source, and that's a different thing altogether from keying things out; you discard old solutions to problems when you see they don't work any more and that leaves a space to create new solutions (also, new and better goals).
 
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Dulloldfart

Squirrel Extraordinaire
Don't ask me what the EPs of the OT levels are except OT1, "able to spot the existence of other people".

That sounds more like something one would get from Grade 0. Not joking here. Not as a final EP but something along the way, I seem to recall from studying Level 0. And from personal observation. But it is a great point to ridicule!

The current CofS Grade Chart is here (CofS link): http://www.whatisscientology.org/html/Part02/Chp06/pg0181_1.html

It gives the stated EPs of what they have released. It doesn't mean people actually achieve those EPs when they attest, but the stated ones are listed.

Paul
 

nexus100

Gold Meritorious Patron
Sure. Anything that raises your tone (and walking does that if it's at all demanding) is going to key things out, especially if you're walking in Nature, and that's good. Other things will too, like a love affair for example. But once you quit walking, the girl dumps you etc., the
shadows return.

Auditing allows you to clear up case by spotting its source, and that's a different thing altogether from keying things out; you discard old solutions to problems when you see they don't work any more and that leaves a space to create new solutions (also, new and better goals).

I hope it continues to work for you, and you get where you're going!
 

Cat's Squirrel

Gold Meritorious Patron
I hope it continues to work for you, and you get where you're going!

Thanks, but I can see I've got some hard cases here :wink:

Whatever works for you, works for you. Seriously, if you know of a better way I'm all ears. Scn (and its offshoots) is a long hard road and I wouldn't take it as seriously as I do if I thought there was an easier or quicker alternative.
 

Veda

Sponsor
Sure. Anything that raises your tone (and walking does that if it's at all demanding) is going to key things out, especially if you're walking in Nature, and that's good. Other things will too, like a love affair for example. But once you quit walking, the girl dumps you etc., the
shadows return.

Auditing allows you to clear up case by spotting its source, and that's a different thing altogether from keying things out; you discard old solutions to problems when you see they don't work any more and that leaves a space to create new solutions (also, new and better goals).

Sounds good. That's the first (good) part of what becomes a (not so good) "bait and switch."

If the "bait and switch" is "successful," you won't notice, or won't care.
 

Cat's Squirrel

Gold Meritorious Patron
That sounds more like something one would get from Grade 0. Not joking here. Not as a final EP but something along the way, I seem to recall from studying Level 0. And from personal observation. But it is a great point to ridicule!

The current CofS Grade Chart is here (CofS link): http://www.whatisscientology.org/html/Part02/Chp06/pg0181_1.html

It gives the stated EPs of what they have released. It doesn't mean people actually achieve those EPs when they attest, but the stated ones are listed.

Paul

Yeah. I got something out of OT1, it was the highest thing I did on the bridge that I have no reservations about. It was like a snake shedding a skin, I felt quite vulnerable for a day or two after attesting.
 

Cat's Squirrel

Gold Meritorious Patron
Sounds good. That's the first (good) part of what becomes a (not so good) "bait and switch."

If the "bait and switch" is "successful," you won't notice, or won't care.

You mean they give you bits of gain, one after another, to keep you reaching for more but deliberately withhold the stuff that would resolve your case permanently? I've heard that said too but I haven't seen any proof that such a "short cut" exists.

The most likely explanation I know for why it seems a long hard road is because it IS a long hard road.
 

Dulloldfart

Squirrel Extraordinaire
Yeah. I got something out of OT1, it was the highest thing I did on the bridge that I have no reservations about. It was like a snake shedding a skin, I felt quite vulnerable for a day or two after attesting.

Which OT1 was that--the 13-step objective one or the current one?

Paul
 

SchwimmelPuckel

Genuine Meatball
It doesn't though, because those particular goals are unrealistic.

OK, put it another way. Would you say medicine doesn't work just because everyone dies sooner or later? Similarly, you can't say auditing doesn't work just because people don't have OT abilities.

If you have some auditing sessions and end up with gains, i.e. you feel better, have more energy, can get on with others more easily, your memory improves, you can resolve problems better and don't need to make others wrong - just the few Grade EPs I can think of now - then auditing has worked for you. Don't ask me what the EPs of the OT levels are except OT1, "able to spot the existence of other people".
I was making noise at the current scinoes. Micks apt observation really should wake 'em the hell up.. Oh! - I know the goals are unrealistic.. But that WAS the goals that was hyped! - Clear definition and descriptions in DMSMH... I really did believe most of that once.

Are you saying that the current scinoes do not believe it? - Ie: That they are aware that the goals are unrealistic. Or that Hubbard lied through his teeth in DMSMH?

I think they still believe that they can get 'Full Track Recall', Iedetic memory, remote vision, Telekinesis, IQ at 250 (IQ increase 1 point per auditing hour according to Hubbard!).. OT powers like gods upon the Earth...

I also think that it's still an ethics offense to not believe that.

:yes:
 

Cat's Squirrel

Gold Meritorious Patron
I was making noise at the current scinoes. Micks apt observation really should wake 'em the hell up.. Oh! - I know the goals are unrealistic.. But that WAS the goals that was hyped! - Clear definition and descriptions in DMSMH... I really did believe most of that once.

Are you saying that the current scinoes do not believe it? - Ie: That they are aware that the goals are unrealistic. Or that Hubbard lied through his teeth in DMSMH?

I think they still believe that they can get 'Full Track Recall', Iedetic memory, remote vision, Telekinesis, IQ at 250 (IQ increase 1 point per auditing hour according to Hubbard!).. OT powers like gods upon the Earth...

I also think that it's still an ethics offense to not believe that.

:yes:

You could be right, but I'm not currently in contact with any Churchies to find out and I'd have to be careful how I asked anyway.

If they think the goals are overhyped, they'd probably keep quiet about it as you say.
 

Veda

Sponsor
You mean they give you bits of gain, one after another, to keep you reaching for more but deliberately withhold the stuff that would resolve your case permanently? I've heard that said too but I haven't seen any proof that such a "short cut" exists.

The most likely explanation I know for why it seems a long hard road is because it IS a long hard road.

No, I mean that "auditing" begins with being, mainly, "asking," and becomes, mainly, "being told." That's a "bait and switch." And if the person doesn't notice, or doesn't care, then the "bait and switch" has been "successful."

"Long hard road?" I assume that you mean the "Scientology 'Bridge'."
 

SchwimmelPuckel

Genuine Meatball
You know.. If they don't belive in the hype anymore. That's totally mindblowing for me! - What the hell is it then, that keeps them there? - Just the Orwellian mind policing and group dynamics like Hitlers Gestapo?

No.. I don't think that has changed. They still believe they will attain OT powers. And that they can't trust their own minds until they do...

Just the way the mind trap was constructed.

:screwy:
 
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