'Reverse auditing' - how does it work?

[Veda]

Reverse auditing is a very exact technology, it's not bullying or overwhelming another in any manner as some seem to think. It includes the use of certain very exact scientology auditing techniques in reverse so that, instead of creating and blowing things (as in normal auditing), the victim is made to create something which is very, very difficult to uncreate. It used to be called Implanting.

"There is one discovery in 1978 that I haven't said very much about and am really not likely to since it is a sad thing. It is what really happens to a thetan who is not salvaged or processed and goes on down the chute. Man, when I saw that and knew it to be true I actually felt sorry for these guys that try to hit at us. Poor devils. Some religions talked about hell. It's an understatement of what really happens."

From 'Ron's Journal 30'

'Keeping Scientology Working': Scientology = continued pleasure. No Scientology = eternal pain. The "OT (Implantology) materials": http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/pubs/sfn98/ot3b.gif Unknowable and unconfrontable without Ron and his exact instructions, and very dangerous but extremely vital to your survival and well being.

As its bait and switch operation proceeds, Scientology combines "blowing" and "implanting" and disguises it as "auditing." The idea is that the enchanted "in-session" Scientologist won't know the difference.

Public Service Announcement: http://forum.exscn.net/showpost.php?p=77478&postcount=14

 

[Vinaire]

Is the "reverse auditing" there in life outside Scientology?

Isn't it a phenomenon of life itself?

Of course, it has become prominent in Scientology. But I think it is used by a person who abuses one's spouse or children. There is much psychological abuse out there in society.

The movie "Silence of the lambs" comes to mind.

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[Panda Termint]

The thing I'm talking about is somewhat more formulated and "procedural" than anything life might throw at one.

 

[Vinaire]

That is true. However I like to start from the broadest viewpoint possible and then focus on the specifics. That way chances of missing something important are minimized.

It appears to me that "reverse auditing" is a game where one is attempting to take control over the beingness of another. Of course, it amounts to destroying the control of another over that beingness.

That raises a very interesting question for me:

What is beingness really?

I am currently looking from the viewpoint of Nirvana as I understand it.

What is Nirvana?

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[Panda Termint]

This thread is about "Reverse Auditing - How does it work?"

 

[SchwimmelPuckel]

Quoting Hubbard:"There is one discovery in 1978 that I haven't said very much about and am really not likely to since it is a sad thing. It is what really happens to a thetan who is not salvaged or processed and goes on down the chute. Man, when I saw that and knew it to be true I actually felt sorry for these guys that try to hit at us. Poor devils. Some religions talked about hell. It's an understatement of what really happens."

From 'Ron's Journal 30' <snip>

Hmm.. Is that where he is?

Mewharh.. He did have a way with words though! - What an insufferable dork!

 

[Carmel]

An SP declare on a scientologist who believes in Hubbard's SP's is an example of reverse auditing.

Maybe it is to you, but it sure as hell isn't what I'm talking about.

The scientologist "SP" is told they have an incident that they are unaware of, that they are stuck in it and can't access or as-is it. They are told they cannot make case gain and any supposed previous case gain was false. They are told they are witholding and committing overts due to fighting unknown enemies from unknown areas of the track. They are told they are "solving" an unknown problem with overts. They are prevented from communicating with reverse ARC. They are told their upset is due to being out-valence and stuck on the track at a point they can't access. They are told they are stuck in being right and dominating due to uncontactable track. They are told they have evil purposes that they can't as-is because they are out of valence. Etc.

Each of these technical evaluations were written by LRH and are deliberate examples of reverse processing of Dianetics, Grades 0 to IV, ExDn, etc.

Maybe so, but not the reverse auditing I'm talking about.

I can personally attest that this reverse auditing is very effective, if you have bought into Ron's tech theories.

What a prick of a statement. So you are inferring here that it's not effective if ya didn't buy into Ron's tech theories?

Wouldn't you agree that LRH was a plagiarist and labelled much from elsewhere as his own? And wouldn't or couldn't you agree that maybe he found some pretty gruelling interrogation techniques from elsewhere that he also adopted as his own? Would you claim that these techniques used outside of Scientology circles aren't or couldn't be psychologically damaging, in a way that even Scientology by itself wasn't?

I suggest you read this full article............it *so* describes reverse auditing, and if you read it, you will see that its workability has absolutely nothing to do with one's beliefs in "Ron's tech theories". It's spun in thousands of people who had never even *heard* of the word "Scientology".

http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/KUBARK_Counterintelligence_Interrogation

I say 'read it' or shut the fuck up! How dare any of you prattle on about something you know nothing about when by doing so you are adding further angst and heartache for those who have been subjected to this stuff.....You people who are so quick to say that it's just this or that, have no fucking idea! You are doing further *damage* with your words, to some of those who need support as opposed to another kick in the guts with your simple and uninformed evaluations of what this stuff is.

Have any of you ever thought why there has only been one or two who have ever spoken about this stuff? I can guess why....coz if and when they did (just like it was for me), they wouldn't be understood, and what they went through wouldn't be understood, and that makes it WORSE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! It's easier to shut up than have people add salt to the wound.

Read the link above, and maybe you'll get the idea that it's something you don't understand. Then maybe you could ask the odd question to get understanding, rather than assuming ya know what it's about and labelling it as 'this or that' which it ISN'T!!!

Who besides Nancy Many or I have spoken about this stuff? Fuck! With responses and comments and 'know it all' evaluation on the issue, it's not a wonder that people don't share what they went through...........That's a damn shame, coz until they do they won't get free of it, and while so called allies are labelling it as something pretty well insignificant and/or something far less than what it is, they won't share it, they'll keep introverting on it.......they'll just keep it to themselves and continue to feel bad about feeling so bad about something which some of you are saying isn't a big deal and/or something they should just be able to get over like so many have - Wrong, wrong, wrong!!!

Get it? If ya don't, then read the article on the link above. This reverse auditing is not just Hubbard shit, it's fucking heavy shit with an additional Hubbard twist. It's a cunt of a thing that those who haven't been on the receiving end of it couldn't ever really get.

I'm asking you to *try* to get it. There are people who could start to heal their pain if you could at least listen and try to get it, but it'll only worsen for them if ya don't listen and understand and/or make conclusions and evaluations which are incorrect.

 

[Carmel]

<snip>

Isn't it a phenomenon of life itself?

<snip>
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No, it's not............Read the link in my previous post.

 

[lionheart]

Carmel, my post was an honest, heart-felt example, from my own experience, of Ron's use of the tech in a reverse way. I did not say it was the only or even the worst example. But it is nevertheless a personally eperienced example of the reverse use of Dianetics and Grades tech.

I'm sorry it stirred up a foul-mouthed response from you, and that it didn't fit in with you definition. I will not argue with you.

I can definitely say that Ron's use of reverse tech in his SP declare was a personal hell for me, for more or less a decade, and I see no reason to have the effects of my example belittled. I have never doubted that the sort of reverse auditing that you are talking about was and is used when Ron's slaves get the opportunity. I hope your posts help people.

I posted my message as an offer of compassion and help, for anyone going through anything similar to my experience. Sometimes ESMB is a hell of a hard place to post messages.

My post was in no way to belittle anyone else's experience of reverse scientology - it was just my personally experienced example. It will resonate with and maybe help some people. Others it won't, buit that's fine there are plenty of posters expressing their experience who will resonate with those that I don't.

Anyone who feels they would like to PM me to help let go of Scientology's effects, are welcome to do so.

Good luck to you, Carmel, and everyone else who is in the process of undoing, Ron's evil.

 

[Carmel]

Fair enough, LH.

Tell me though, have you read the info on the link provided?

 

[Carmel]

PS......

What a co-incidence! .....One of the many components of the "Kubark counter intelligence interrogation" (which is the closest description of reverse auditing I've ever seen described) is "Alice in Wonderland"

Alice in Wonderland
The aim of the Alice in Wonderland or confusion technique is to confound the expectations and conditioned reactions of the interrogatee. He is accustomed to a world that makes some sense, at least to him: a world of continuity and logic, a predictable world. He clings to this world to reinforce his identity and powers of resistance.
The confusion technique is designed not only to obliterate the familiar but to replace it with the weird. Although this method can be employed by a single interrogator, it is better adapted to use by two or three. When the subject enters the room, the first interrogator asks a doubletalk question -- one which seems straightforward but is essentially nonsensical. Whether the interrogatee tries to answer or not, the second interrogator follows up (interrupting any attempted response) with a wholly unrelated and equally illogical query. Sometimes two or more questions are asked simultaneously. Pitch, tone, and volume of the interrogators' voices are unrelated to the import of the questions. No pattern of questions and answers is permitted to develop, nor do the questions themselves relate logically to each other. In this strange atmosphere the subject finds that the pattern of speech and thought which he has learned to consider normal have been replaced by an eerie meaninglessness. The interrogatee may start laughing or refuse to take the situation seriously. But as the process continues, day after day if necessary, the subject begins to try to make sense of the situation, which becomes mentally intolerable. Now he is likely to make significant admissions, or even to pour out his story, just to stop the flow of babble which assails him. This technique may be especially effective with the orderly, obstinate type.


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[Ted]

What a co-incidence! .....One of the many components of the "Kubark counter intelligence interrogation" (which is the closest description of reverse auditing I've ever seen described) is "Alice in Wonderland"

Alice in Wonderland
The aim of the Alice in Wonderland or confusion technique is to confound the expectations and conditioned reactions of the interrogatee. He is accustomed to a world that makes some sense, at least to him: a world of continuity and logic, a predictable world. He clings to this world to reinforce his identity and powers of resistance.
The confusion technique is designed not only to obliterate the familiar but to replace it with the weird. Although this method can be employed by a single interrogator, it is better adapted to use by two or three. When the subject enters the room, the first interrogator asks a doubletalk question -- one which seems straightforward but is essentially nonsensical. Whether the interrogatee tries to answer or not, the second interrogator follows up (interrupting any attempted response) with a wholly unrelated and equally illogical query. Sometimes two or more questions are asked simultaneously. Pitch, tone, and volume of the interrogators' voices are unrelated to the import of the questions. No pattern of questions and answers is permitted to develop, nor do the questions themselves relate logically to each other. In this strange atmosphere the subject finds that the pattern of speech and thought which he has learned to consider normal have been replaced by an eerie meaninglessness. The interrogatee may start laughing or refuse to take the situation seriously. But as the process continues, day after day if necessary, the subject begins to try to make sense of the situation, which becomes mentally intolerable. Now he is likely to make significant admissions, or even to pour out his story, just to stop the flow of babble which assails him. This technique may be especially effective with the orderly, obstinate type.


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I agree. This is it, as stated above.

Expectations are part of the setup for a good session. The pc expects certain rules to be followed. The pc expects certain attitudes and non-attitudes from the auditor. The pc expects a person sitting behind an e-meter asking questions to BE an auditor. HCO sec checkers also violate pc expectations. Reverse auditing takes the violations to new extremes.

 

[lionheart]

Fair enough, LH.

Tell me though, have you read the info on the link provided?

Yes. I'm also aware of The Pilot's reported experience. I am truly sorry if your experience is along those lines.

Old Hubbard was a cunning old trout! His whole subject is laced with Black Scientology. He bragged about how he could do this in his lectures to the Briefing Course. While we were obediant little slaves, we simply assumed he was talking theoretically, so naturally we never saw him doing it! This was a simple magician's sleight of hand. You hide something by putting it in full view.

His whole SP, Fair Game tech, we ignored or somehow justified that the recipients of that version of reverse scientology somehow deserved it.

When I was a slave, My only awareness of reverse auditing was in non-audited, HCO, "sec checks". Since the internet I have become aware of gang-bang sec checks and of course Hubbard's "brainwashing" manual.

I think there is a range of black to white scientology. You and I were busily doing our best as auditors and C/Ses to help our PCs and apply the whitest scientology we could possibly apply.

While we were doing this, HCO were applying a darker scientology called ethics and an even darker one called justice. The SP, fair game tech is a pretty dark grey scientology and that's where I have personal experience having been declared and believing I was or might be an SP. That's what I meant about needing to believe in the SP theory and causation of the SP case for the SP reverse tech to spin you in. If you don't believe Hubbard's barmy theory about SPs, then being "declared" an SP is ineffective reverse processing. If you do believe in his SPs, I can assure you being declared one is as spinny and as close to going insane as I would ever want to get. It was LRH's clear intention to create such insanity in his victims.

The GO and later OSA applied an even blacker scientology and actually ran processes backwards. They also deliberately ARC broke people, missed witholds (of nothing if necessary), caused problems, denied Havingness, made the victim assert rightness, etc.. They were deliberately misusing Scientology as per LRH's claim in the Briefing Course lectures.

This was under LRH's direct order and implimented in the GO days by the likes of slaves like David Gaiman, Jane Kember, Mary Sue Hubbard and similar low-life slaves.

Cyril Vosper, John McMaster, Paulette Cooper, Robert Kaufman and others were earlier victims of this version of Ron's reverse scientology. He ordered reverse auditing, fair game and murder on 15 people as referenced here: http://www.forum.exscn.net/showthread.php?t=19256&page=3

I don't doubt that some individuals were indeed run on an even blacker version of scientology. Grey to black scientology is embedded in the subject. Poor idiots like David Miscavige are carrying on this ignoble tradition.

 

[Vinaire]

No, it's not............Read the link in my previous post.

It is interesting to note the following definitions from this article.

Debriefing: obtaining information by questioning a controlled and witting source who is normally a willing one.

Interrogation: obtaining information by direct questioning of a person or persons under conditions which are either partly or fully controlled by the questioner or are believed by those questioned to be subject to his control. Because interviewing, debriefing, and eliciting are simpler methods of obtaining information from cooperative subjects, interrogation is usually reserved for sources who are suspect, resistant, or both.

Scientology seems to use "Interrogation" techniques even on willing subjects. It assumes that they are unwilling and resistant. The purpose could be more sinister than just obtaining information. It could be aiming for total control of another's beingness.

Or, it could be just their paranoia.

.

 

[Vinaire]

Note:
KUBARK: CIA Headquarters
PBPRIME: the United States of America
ODYOKE: Federal government of the United States

It is too long an article to read. Maybe Carmel should highlight pertinent points.

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[Emma]

Carmel, my post was an honest, heart-felt example, from my own experience, of Ron's use of the tech in a reverse way. I did not say it was the only or even the worst example. But it is nevertheless a personally eperienced example of the reverse use of Dianetics and Grades tech.

I'm sorry it stirred up a foul-mouthed response from you, and that it didn't fit in with you definition. I will not argue with you.

I can definitely say that Ron's use of reverse tech in his SP declare was a personal hell for me, for more or less a decade, and I see no reason to have the effects of my example belittled. I have never doubted that the sort of reverse auditing that you are talking about was and is used when Ron's slaves get the opportunity. I hope your posts help people.

I posted my message as an offer of compassion and help, for anyone going through anything similar to my experience. Sometimes ESMB is a hell of a hard place to post messages.

My post was in no way to belittle anyone else's experience of reverse scientology - it was just my personally experienced example. It will resonate with and maybe help some people. Others it won't, buit that's fine there are plenty of posters expressing their experience who will resonate with those that I don't.

Anyone who feels they would like to PM me to help let go of Scientology's effects, are welcome to do so.

Good luck to you, Carmel, and everyone else who is in the process of undoing, Ron's evil.

ESMB is supposed to be a place where people can safely exchange ideas and communicate in a relatively non combative environment. It seems ESMB has lost its way in this regard recently.

I'm sorry your ideas & insights were met with hostility and I thank you for your kind offer to help anyone who seeks your assistance.

 

[lionheart]

Thanks for your nice message. It's all cool with me.

It was particularly ironic, as my post was about how reverse use of the tech almost spun me into insanity! I think others saw how much I was suffering at the time more than I did, I was so stuck in the "am I an SP?/protest spin cycle.

Declaring as SP, scientologists who believe in Hubbard's tech is a cruel, evil and deliberate attempt to turn them insane, developed and copyrighted by L Ron Hubbard! Propagated since his death by his obedient slaves like Miscavige. Huboo lives on!

I think it is easier these days as there are so many "SPs" speaking on the internet. There is comfort in the numbers of scn's main up-stat - number of SP's created!

Scientology put me through a full wash cycle. Brainwashing followed by a fast spin and hanging out to dry!

Anyone spinning can look for help from me or others who have been through it.

It's a long time ago for me. All is well and I am better for the experience.

I'll let others talk about their experience of reverse or Black scientology now.

 

[Vinaire]

Maybe it is to you, but it sure as hell isn't what I'm talking about.


Maybe so, but not the reverse auditing I'm talking about.


What a prick of a statement. So you are inferring here that it's not effective if ya didn't buy into Ron's tech theories?

Wouldn't you agree that LRH was a plagiarist and labelled much from elsewhere as his own? And wouldn't or couldn't you agree that maybe he found some pretty gruelling interrogation techniques from elsewhere that he also adopted as his own? Would you claim that these techniques used outside of Scientology circles aren't or couldn't be psychologically damaging, in a way that even Scientology by itself wasn't?

I suggest you read this full article............it *so* describes reverse auditing, and if you read it, you will see that its workability has absolutely nothing to do with one's beliefs in "Ron's tech theories". It's spun in thousands of people who had never even *heard* of the word "Scientology".

http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/KUBARK_Counterintelligence_Interrogation

I say 'read it' or shut the fuck up! How dare any of you prattle on about something you know nothing about when by doing so you are adding further angst and heartache for those who have been subjected to this stuff.....You people who are so quick to say that it's just this or that, have no fucking idea! You are doing further *damage* with your words, to some of those who need support as opposed to another kick in the guts with your simple and uninformed evaluations of what this stuff is.

Have any of you ever thought why there has only been one or two who have ever spoken about this stuff? I can guess why....coz if and when they did (just like it was for me), they wouldn't be understood, and what they went through wouldn't be understood, and that makes it WORSE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! It's easier to shut up than have people add salt to the wound.

Read the link above, and maybe you'll get the idea that it's something you don't understand. Then maybe you could ask the odd question to get understanding, rather than assuming ya know what it's about and labelling it as 'this or that' which it ISN'T!!!

Who besides Nancy Many or I have spoken about this stuff? Fuck! With responses and comments and 'know it all' evaluation on the issue, it's not a wonder that people don't share what they went through...........That's a damn shame, coz until they do they won't get free of it, and while so called allies are labelling it as something pretty well insignificant and/or something far less than what it is, they won't share it, they'll keep introverting on it.......they'll just keep it to themselves and continue to feel bad about feeling so bad about something which some of you are saying isn't a big deal and/or something they should just be able to get over like so many have - Wrong, wrong, wrong!!!

Get it? If ya don't, then read the article on the link above. This reverse auditing is not just Hubbard shit, it's fucking heavy shit with an additional Hubbard twist. It's a cunt of a thing that those who haven't been on the receiving end of it couldn't ever really get.

I'm asking you to *try* to get it. There are people who could start to heal their pain if you could at least listen and try to get it, but it'll only worsen for them if ya don't listen and understand and/or make conclusions and evaluations which are incorrect.

More than sharing, it is LOOKING that is effective... from what I understand.

Please give a try to KHTK exercises in my blog (see link in my signature below).

.

 

[SchwimmelPuckel]

<snip>.. my post was about how reverse use of the tech almost spun me into insanity! I think others saw how much I was suffering at the time more than I did, I was so stuck in the "am I an SP?/protest spin cycle. </snip>

Welcome to the club! - The 'Maybe I'm an SP Club', I was a worried member for more than a decade.

Well, judging by the damage done to our minds and sanity, this has to be black scientology.. But the 'conditioning' for it is done from day one in the cult. Pieces of the 'implant' in almost all Hubbrds writings.. It's being 'installed' as pivotal point to 'wins' in session or training. Ie. If you don't get 'wins', you are an SP! - If you ain't happy with Hubbards sage advice, you're probably and SP! - If you can't make enough money to buy the next service, you must be an SP!

If you just want to be left alone your'e most certainly an SP!

And if you think you're an SP, then you're not! - Wow! - That's a good one for a registrar to sell you yet another service when you decided that enough is enough!

Goddamn! - I suspect that well neigh everyone ever caught up in Scientology is in the "am I an SP?/protest spin cycle.

I know all to much about The 'Maybe I'm an SP Club'.. I'd rather be a member of The Mile High Club anyway..

 

[Vinaire]

Welcome to the club! - The 'Maybe I'm an SP Club', I was a worried member for more than a decade.

Well, judging by the damage done to our minds and sanity, this has to be black scientology.. But the 'conditioning' for it is done from day one in the cult. Pieces of the 'implant' in almost all Hubbrds writings.. It's being 'installed' as pivotal point to 'wins' in session or training. Ie. If you don't get 'wins', you are an SP! - If you ain't happy with Hubbards sage advice, you're probably and SP! - If you can't make enough money to buy the next service, you must be an SP!

If you just want to be left alone your'e most certainly an SP!

And if you think you're an SP, then you're not! - Wow! - That's a good one for a registrar to sell you yet another service when you decided that enough is enough!

Goddamn! - I suspect that well neigh everyone ever caught up in Scientology is in the "am I an SP?/protest spin cycle.

I know all to much about The 'Maybe I'm an SP Club'.. I'd rather be a member of The Mile High Club anyway..

I didn't go through enough spins on that cycle to be still stuck in it...

So, I must be an SP's SP, or ESMB's SP.

.