Richard Reiss – Kha Khan Posted on March 21, 2011 by martyrathbun09| Leave a comment

Mick Wenlock

Admin Emeritus (retired)
I apologized. I explained the purpose of my posting and made it clear I was accusing you of nothing. If you want to rage, that's your right, but you willfully ignore the entire point of what I wrote, which was clearly in DIRECT opposition to the concept of holding you - or many of us - to account.

Will this make you feel better? Mick, you were the saint of the Sea Organization. While the rest of us were promoting scientology no matter what with all our hearts, you and you alone had the foresight to tell right from wrong, black from white and do your job only and always the RIGHT WAY. You never harmed anyone, never yelled at anyone, and at all times managed the balance between your integrity and the environment's demands with perfection.

I am printing your photo, placing it on my wall, and will sit in front of it daily, meditating on your incredible, unwavering strength of character, as I pray that one so unworthy as I will one day reach the same level of awesomeness. It goes without saying that if I posted something that upset you, such posting was wrong, and I am a lowly being who must now reflect on my ways.

Whatever. You add nothing to this thread but rage and self-centered bullshit. Even your original posting was arrogant, dismissive and cold. Oh, wait... does that possibly undermine the credibility of what I just said in the paragraphs above? Hmmm... Well, maybe you weren't the world famous asshole then that you appear to be now.

As far as your shaming comments regarding anonymity, and your continuing requests for specific details of my identity, I will quote you roundly: "piss off." I'm not taking off my mask because you choose to forward the propaganda line claiming that one must be namefagged to be credible. Marty pushes this line nice and hard. I realize his reasons are likely more sinister than yours, but the argument against it either way is obvious. What a stupid stand to take.

Who am I? Long term Sea Org member, I've been RPFed, declared, undeclared, high up, low down. I've cleaned Rat's Alley in PAC and been screamed at by Sue Price at the FSO in front of my children. I've regged and audited and trained. I've done missions in Canada, EUS and Europe and goggled as a young lad at the topless girls sunning on the Denmark grass. I've crammed and been a CO. I've had a CSW denied to attend a family member's funeral, and disconnected from friends, a spouse, and a family member, only to reconnect with them again. I finally had enough and left in a crash and burn that strewed wreckage throughout my life.

All long ago, but I think I've paid my dues. I've rebuilt my life from those ashes, and I'll post as I like unless banned, and I'll have my say. I strive to give everyone a very, very clear fair-shake in what I write, and to apologize with sincerity if I'm wrong. I did so with you. That doesn't mean I'm going to sit back and eat the shit you serve because your panties have gotten into some unresolvable snit and you now want to throw a temper tantrum and act like a child.

I'm sorry for what you experienced in the sea org. Oh, wait, I already made it INCREDIBLY clear that I feel the same about all sea org members. But then, your feelings are the most important, aren't they? More important than any form of adult discourse. The rest of us couldn't possibly understand the depth of what you experienced in terms of pressure or betrayal. Your experience was uniquely oppressive. Forgive me. Let me look for some golden rod, so I can get the issue out on myself.

Nice scorched earth approach, Mick. WELL DONE! It's like being back in the sea org. You really handled the hell out of that one.

In fact, you know what? Just to keep this thread on topic, I'm going to rectify a HUGE mistake, and award you the title of ex-Scientologist Kha-Khan. Congratulations, Admiral!

Wanker.


yeah so the end result of all that was that you know nothing about me, nothing about what i have done or not done but felt self righteous and dumb enough to try and comment on what you thought *must* have been the way things were.

And when you get some facts that don't actually fit your rather pathetic little fantasies you suddenly come over all hysterical. oh well .

you managed to speak volumes about yourself.

TTFN
 

notimmortal

New Member
No . . . . . . . .

As some have accurately pointed out, the "eulogy" was as much or more about Marty Rathboner as anything else. And much of the content of the eulogy easily displays certain aspects of Marty's continued Scientology-crazed insanity. Discussing those things IS appropriate. If you want to play "sincere mourner", then go over there to Marty-land and post THERE. This here is an entirely different venue. When it comes to all things related to Scientology, ESMB is FAR less forgiving (and this is appropriate when all things are considered).

And, RR WAS willingly participating and contributing to one of the WORSE versions of the Chirch of Scientolgy that has ever existed. :whistling:

You know I like you Fluffy, but this is total BS:

"Anytime anyone dies, we are the poorer for their passing."

Anyone? Really? How so? That comment is just so ridiculous to me. It might be far truer to say, "anytime anyone dies, someone is possibly the poorer".

What is dying anyways? Everything passes. Everything is change. All things must pass. Simple Vedic facts. The seasons display on a smaller scale the life of any person (or animal, or plant).

Righteous indignation is a really sloppy and slimy flow. I see much of that in THIS thread. Yucky!

Personally, as I see it, there is FAR TOO MUCH (contrived, manufactured) significance about "death". It is largely "exagerrated". Grossly so. The ONLY people I have ANY thoughts for when someone dies are those still living who might be adversely affected. I know, some will say I am "cold", or "insensitive". But, I practice what I preach. How?

My mom died a few years ago. My ONLY concern was how my dad took it. My mom wanted to be cremated. We didn't have any sort of ceremony. No extra, added unecessary MOCKED UP CRAP filled with all sorts of soggy & pretentious emotions. I spent a few hours one evening in comm with my Mom (in my mind, since she lived 1200 miles away from me), actually the night she died, and I validated her and encouraged her to move forward onto the next step of her journey. The death thing really shocked her, and I did a sort of bastardized version of The Tibetan Book of the Dead with her. I kept handling whatever came up, until she was cool about it and comfortable with where she now found herself. Interestingly, after I did the few hours of telepathy thing with her, I got the phone call that she had died. And, my brother and I occassionally discuss her, both the good and the bad. Honestly, without exagerration.

I agree with Mick. The reality of RR is/was a package of actual events, behaviors and actions. All else is BS. Either honestly describe those, or don't.

But shit, now I am "discussing discussing", and I HATE that! :angry:

++++++

I agree with disagreeing with Fluffy's post. But making general pronouncements on death doesn't cover all the bases.

Meaning no disrespect to the account you gave, how you handled death with your mother isn't necessarily relevant to how people here handled Richard's death. The history between those involved is entirely different, and that does matter.

I'm contending that holding "he really pushed that auditing - and delivered it a lot, too!" is a ludicrously low bar to use in judging someone.

All I'm trying to point out is the possibility that condemnation minus any sins other than "pushing scientology on people" might be a vestige of scientology thinking, not a throwing off of it.

Insofar as death in general goes, your comments re: soggy and pretentious, etc, are your opinions only. It's death. Whatever gets you through it, so long as it doesn't hurt others doing so, is valid to my mind.
 

notimmortal

New Member
yeah so the end result of all that was that you know nothing about me, nothing about what i have done or not done but felt self righteous and dumb enough to try and comment on what you thought *must* have been the way things were.

And when you get some facts that don't actually fit your rather pathetic little fantasies you suddenly come over all hysterical. oh well .

you managed to speak volumes about yourself.

TTFN

Good PR series application there, Mick.

Kudos.

Your rage and small mindedness, I suppose, were not "hysterical"? So what were they? Drunken postings?

You've contributed nothing of any substance to this thread but your own arm-waving, self-righteous petulance.

You were never responsible for money coming into scientology? Liar. Not that I was faulting you for it, but you're the one making the claim. I know for a fact it's untrue. No one you ran ever turned a buck? Bullshit.

I refer you to my comments re: "intimidation." Appreciate you making such claims credible in this very thread. I never stated it was your default position, but I watched it happen right in front of my eyes. You know it's true, you just don't like it. For fuck's sake, if I'd known you were such a thin-skinned git, I would've left you out of it. Grow a pair, for Christ's sake. I met someone who knew me in the S.O. once and they told me I'd been a terror to them on a mission, and unjustly so. I agreed. I didn't whine about it because they weren't trying to drag me down. It was no different here.

And no, I won't take the bait and give you specifics that will allow someone to figure out who I am. Sorry. I'm aware that's not actually your intent, but it's quite factually what you're asking. I'm not surrendering my privacy to either your pouting or your shouting, Mick. I don't care how hard you pound your beer coaster.

You've proven nothing on this thread but your willingness to act like a brutish fool. No comments at all about anything I posted? Was it too much for you to read?

Sorry, I can't come up with any clever sign-off zingers...
 

AnonKat

Crusader
Is this never defend always atack shit ?

Good PR series application there, Mick.

Kudos.

Your rage and small mindedness, I suppose, were not "hysterical"? So what were they? Drunken postings?

You've contributed nothing of any substance to this thread but your own arm-waving, self-righteous petulance.

You were never responsible for money coming into scientology? Liar. Not that I was faulting you for it, but you're the one making the claim. I know for a fact it's untrue. No one you ran ever turned a buck? Bullshit.

I refer you to my comments re: "intimidation." Appreciate you making such claims credible in this very thread. I never stated it was your default position, but I watched it happen right in front of my eyes. You know it's true, you just don't like it. For fuck's sake, if I'd known you were such a thin-skinned git, I would've left you out of it. Grow a pair, for Christ's sake. I met someone who knew me in the S.O. once and they told me I'd been a terror to them on a mission, and unjustly so. I agreed. I didn't whine about it because they weren't trying to drag me down. It was no different here.

And no, I won't take the bait and give you specifics that will allow someone to figure out who I am. Sorry. I'm aware that's not actually your intent, but it's quite factually what you're asking. I'm not surrendering my privacy to either your pouting or your shouting, Mick. I don't care how hard you pound your beer coaster.

You've proven nothing on this thread but your willingness to act like a brutish fool. No comments at all about anything I posted? Was it too much for you to read?

Sorry, I can't come up with any clever sign-off zingers...

Heey cut the Ad hom you
 

Alanzo

Bardo Tulpa
Good PR series application there, Mick.

Kudos.

Your rage and small mindedness, I suppose, were not "hysterical"? So what were they? Drunken postings?

You've contributed nothing of any substance to this thread but your own arm-waving, self-righteous petulance.

You were never responsible for money coming into scientology? Liar. Not that I was faulting you for it, but you're the one making the claim. I know for a fact it's untrue. No one you ran ever turned a buck? Bullshit.

I refer you to my comments re: "intimidation." Appreciate you making such claims credible in this very thread. I never stated it was your default position, but I watched it happen right in front of my eyes. You know it's true, you just don't like it. For fuck's sake, if I'd known you were such a thin-skinned git, I would've left you out of it. Grow a pair, for Christ's sake. I met someone who knew me in the S.O. once and they told me I'd been a terror to them on a mission, and unjustly so. I agreed. I didn't whine about it because they weren't trying to drag me down. It was no different here.

And no, I won't take the bait and give you specifics that will allow someone to figure out who I am. Sorry. I'm aware that's not actually your intent, but it's quite factually what you're asking. I'm not surrendering my privacy to either your pouting or your shouting, Mick. I don't care how hard you pound your beer coaster.

You've proven nothing on this thread but your willingness to act like a brutish fool. No comments at all about anything I posted? Was it too much for you to read?

Sorry, I can't come up with any clever sign-off zingers...

Hi NotImmortal -

You said earlier that you changed your nick recently. Did you have an earlier nick here on ESMB? If so, what was it?

My name is Alanzo.

If you are new to ESMB, then welcome!

If not, why did you change your nick?

What's the story there?
 

Terril park

Sponsor
I apologized. I explained the purpose of my posting and made it clear I was accusing you of nothing. If you want to rage, that's your right, but you willfully ignore the entire point of what I wrote, which was clearly in DIRECT opposition to the concept of holding you - or many of us - to account.

Will this make you feel better? Mick, you were the saint of the Sea Organization. While the rest of us were promoting scientology no matter what with all our hearts, you and you alone had the foresight to tell right from wrong, black from white and do your job only and always the RIGHT WAY. You never harmed anyone, never yelled at anyone, and at all times managed the balance between your integrity and the environment's demands with perfection.

I am printing your photo, placing it on my wall, and will sit in front of it daily, meditating on your incredible, unwavering strength of character, as I pray that one so unworthy as I will one day reach the same level of awesomeness. It goes without saying that if I posted something that upset you, such posting was wrong, and I am a lowly being who must now reflect on my ways.

Whatever. You add nothing to this thread but rage and self-centered bullshit. Even your original posting was arrogant, dismissive and cold. Oh, wait... does that possibly undermine the credibility of what I just said in the paragraphs above? Hmmm... Well, maybe you weren't the world famous asshole then that you appear to be now.

As far as your shaming comments regarding anonymity, and your continuing requests for specific details of my identity, I will quote you roundly: "piss off." I'm not taking off my mask because you choose to forward the propaganda line claiming that one must be namefagged to be credible. Marty pushes this line nice and hard. I realize his reasons are likely more sinister than yours, but the argument against it either way is obvious. What a stupid stand to take.

Who am I? Long term Sea Org member, I've been RPFed, declared, undeclared, high up, low down. I've cleaned Rat's Alley in PAC and been screamed at by Sue Price at the FSO in front of my children. I've regged and audited and trained. I've done missions in Canada, EUS and Europe and goggled as a young lad at the topless girls sunning on the Denmark grass. I've crammed and been a CO. I've had a CSW denied to attend a family member's funeral, and disconnected from friends, a spouse, and a family member, only to reconnect with them again. I finally had enough and left in a crash and burn that strewed wreckage throughout my life.

All long ago, but I think I've paid my dues. I've rebuilt my life from those ashes, and I'll post as I like unless banned, and I'll have my say. I strive to give everyone a very, very clear fair-shake in what I write, and to apologize with sincerity if I'm wrong. I did so with you. That doesn't mean I'm going to sit back and eat the shit you serve because your panties have gotten into some unresolvable snit and you now want to throw a temper tantrum and act like a child.

I'm sorry for what you experienced in the sea org. Oh, wait, I already made it INCREDIBLY clear that I feel the same about all sea org members. But then, your feelings are the most important, aren't they? More important than any form of adult discourse. The rest of us couldn't possibly understand the depth of what you experienced in terms of pressure or betrayal. Your experience was uniquely oppressive. Forgive me. Let me look for some golden rod, so I can get the issue out on myself.

Nice scorched earth approach, Mick. WELL DONE! It's like being back in the sea org. You really handled the hell out of that one.

In fact, you know what? Just to keep this thread on topic, I'm going to rectify a HUGE mistake, and award you the title of ex-Scientologist Kha-Khan. Congratulations, Admiral!

Wanker.

I've had the great pleasure of staying with Mick and lovely wife a couple of years ago. His son who can barely see and IIRC can't hear snuggled up to me for a while at night. Met the families horses.

He's a good guy. He's not a scientologist and I am. We got on very well.

I very much like your viewpoint.

We all tried to serve our fellow man. Its a very noble path. So it got booby trapped and full of problems.

I didn't suffer in such a quest but I wish to honor all who tried.
 

notimmortal

New Member
Is this never defend always atack shit ?



Heey cut the Ad hom you


My postings? And Mick gets a pass?

Lol.

Thanks for putting things into perspective.

Emma, and others who've been creating these islands of information, my sincere thanks. The aggregate of data available is factually what enabled me to let go of Scientology entirely. This was an extremely significant moment in my life. A real moment of freedom, not an imagined one, and I thank you for that.

It wasn't any one thing. It was story after story, post after post. I'd hoped to add something to the pool, and I think I have. I just reviewed my more substantive postings, and I feel good about them. I can see someone going through ESMB and learning something from them.

It's little pushes. Scientology won't die with the end of Miscavige. It'll be starved to death over time, because the information here and other places exists forever.

I'm not sure why I let myself get pulled into your tantrum, Mick. I haven't thought of you in years. And I understand loyalty to your personality exclusive of your actions in recent postings. You've put the time in here, after all. I think your refusal of my apology was bollocks, but I probably should have let it go. Walking away from a fight has always been one of my weak points. I'll cede the field and let you have whatever last words you wish. Try "Don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out." Something pithy like that is right up your alley.

Alanzo, I had posted as xtothextothey, and had then asked for removal of my user name. It had never been my intent to stick around, just to have my say on this subject. I made the mistake of returning when I was already satisfied.

My son came up ten minutes ago and asked me "why are you getting mad at the computer?" Bless him. Why indeed?

Cheers, all. Screw you, Mick. You're a brutal git, you are, but I also know you got well screwed, and perhaps I stirred your pot - intentionally or otherwise - a bit harder than I should have.

I did know you, though. We've even had a beer together, once and long ago. But that was in a different life, and the world's moved on.

I wish you well, you old bulldog. Well, I want to punch you a little first, but I wish you well.

May those of our friends and family who are still trapped in the madness of scientology one day find their way home. One of my best mates is still in there. I hope he gets out before he dies. I'd be fairly upset to see him lambasted on this board for doing exactly the same thing we all did when we were in.

Even you, Mick. :wink2:

Cheers, all.
 

AnonKat

Crusader
I do love you

My postings? And Mick gets a pass?

Lol.

Thanks for putting things into perspective.

Emma, and others who've been creating these islands of information, my sincere thanks. The aggregate of data available is factually what enabled me to let go of Scientology entirely. This was an extremely significant moment in my life. A real moment of freedom, not an imagined one, and I thank you for that.

It wasn't any one thing. It was story after story, post after post. I'd hoped to add something to the pool, and I think I have. I just reviewed my more substantive postings, and I feel good about them. I can see someone going through ESMB and learning something from them.

It's little pushes. Scientology won't die with the end of Miscavige. It'll be starved to death over time, because the information here and other places exists forever.

I'm not sure why I let myself get pulled into your tantrum, Mick. I haven't thought of you in years. And I understand loyalty to your personality exclusive of your actions in recent postings. You've put the time in here, after all. I think your refusal of my apology was bollocks, but I probably should have let it go. Walking away from a fight has always been one of my weak points. I'll cede the field and let you have whatever last words you wish. Try "Don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out." Something pithy like that is right up your alley.

Alanzo, I had posted as xtothextothey, and had then asked for removal of my user name. It had never been my intent to stick around, just to have my say on this subject. I made the mistake of returning when I was already satisfied.

My son came up ten minutes ago and asked me "why are you getting mad at the computer?" Bless him. Why indeed?

Cheers, all. Screw you, Mick. You're a brutal git, you are, but I also know you got well screwed, and perhaps I stirred your pot - intentionally or otherwise - a bit harder than I should have.

I did know you, though. We've even had a beer together, once and long ago. But that was in a different life, and the world's moved on.

I wish you well, you old bulldog. Well, I want to punch you a little first, but I wish you well.

May those of our friends and family who are still trapped in the madness of scientology one day find their way home. One of my best mates is still in there. I hope he gets out before he dies. I'd be fairly upset to see him lambasted on this board for doing exactly the same thing we all did when we were in.

Even you, Mick. :wink2:

Cheers, all.
 
I've had the great pleasure of staying with Mick and lovely wife a couple of years ago. His son who can barely see and IIRC can't hear snuggled up to me for a while at night. Met the families horses.

He's a good guy. He's not a scientologist and I am. We got on very well.

I very much like your viewpoint.

We all tried to serve our fellow man. Its a very noble path. So it got booby trapped and full of problems.

I didn't suffer in such a quest but I wish to honor all who tried.

Is there anyone you *haven't* stayed with / had the pleasure of meeting?
And is there anyone you've met who *isn't* lovely or wonderful or nice?
Not that I'm suggesting Mick or his wife aren't, just that when I go to hell I'd like you to be the one to introduce me to Lucifer>
 
... I feel that speaking ill of a person just after their death is quite a heavy act. ...

I don't consider that speaking truthfully of a person's choices or actions can ever constitute 'speaking ill' of the person. Nor is it ever possible to hope to understand a person without acknowledging ALL of their thoughts & actions. [As an aside, one of my favorite sci-fi novels makes this point quite brilliantly: "Speaker For the Dead", by Orson Scott Card. It's the second book in his "Ender's Game" series.]

As to the origins of the traditional custom of 'not speaking ill of the dead'; it is derived from very old folk custom that the dead will hear, take offense, and cause trouble for the living. It has become strongly ingrained in many cultures, yet custom does not qualify it as either wise, compassionate, or true.



... For my part, I'd have to feel they were truly terrible individuals. Even after the passage of that early time (after they died), I'd feel the onus to leaven my comments with consideration and divorce them from histrionics, should I not have deemed the deceased, as above, "truly terrible." I do not feel people are an expendable resource, or something to be viewed divorced of their humanity. You speak of reason including all views, and I do agree. Perhaps what I'm trying to communicate is that I feel you are missing a very important view, and that in my opinion, that view is true compassion. Not compassion in "eternity" but in the here, the now; for the life -in this case - belonging to Richard Reiss, not his formless "soul".

And I consider that the dead are beyond the power of the living, either to hurt or be hurt by them. The greatest compassion for the dead lies in understanding their lives as fully as possible so that the living can profit from that knowledge and themselves lead better lives. Euphemisms, half-truths, and lies are not indicative of compassion. They are indicative of an unwillingness to acknowledge the truth of a life and an eagerness to keep the truth unknown.


Have you ever been in the sea org, Mark?

No. That was intentional. I saw the SO as at best ridiculous and at worst exactly the sort of organization likely to induce its members to engage in grossly unethical if not outright criminal acts. I wanted no part of it.

My own history has been discussed on numerous occasions on the board. Briefly, I was public at the old Orange County Mission for approximately a year. Subsequently I joined staff at the mission and remained there for about a year until I left in late '81. I left because of what I considered to be inappropriate pressure by management to require staff members to behave in accordance with unethical directives. This was at a time in which the SO was increasing its control of the church & mission network. Shortly after my departure from staff the church was split by the mass defections of the early '80s. I was subsequently involved in some of the nascent independent scientology groups & activities of that period.

I do understand the pressures brought to bear on SO staff to conform to the unethical practices & policies of church management. I regard it as a basic truth that ultimately each individual is responsible for his own choices. I do not regard 'I was only following orders' as a valid justification for compliance with inappropriate or unethical directives. Possessing such an attitude doesn't make a person 'evil', but neither is it any proof of his high ethical standing or degree of responsibility. It is a proved mechanism which leads to gross abuses by those institutions which encourage such attitudes.


... The implication isn't that this gives everyone a pass on everything forever. But you don't feel it deserves any consideration at all? ...

If you have noticed I have been quite careful in my remarks NOT to judge RR as somehow 'evil' or 'bad' for his continuing support of the Miscavige regime. I fully accept the word of his friends that he was a warm & caring man who strived in his office to assist others. What I object to is the idea that this is the whole of the truth of his life and that only this truth matters or is appropriate to discuss. It isn't.

I'm personally not into 'blame' or 'punishment'. I'm not a believer in 'good' or 'evil'. I do believe in ethics, reason, & responsibility. All people struggle with these on a daily basis. One of the ironies of life in the Co$ is that so many who often intend to assist others often become responsible for far more harm than help. That is not a state of affairs unique to the church, but it is one that is common to it.

I strongly consider that the truth about that harm must be openly acknowledged and responsibility accepted by each participant for the matter to be understood and for it to serve as a basis for future growth.

Denials & half-truths are what has created the mess that is the Co$. The only way to clean up the mess that has been created is by acknowledging the harm, the lies, & the irresponsibility. That is done through open discussions of past actions undertaken by the participants and those who have been effected on discussion boards such as esmb.

I fail to see how the dead can be harmed by that process.


... I want to thank Emma for providing this board, and those bothering to read this for their patience and forebearance.

I certainly concur in this. Emma's creation of esmb has provided an opportunity for many to publicly discuss & privately come to terms with all the confusion, abuses, criminality, and suppression that they have individually & collectively participated in, suffered, or observed during the time of their individual involvements with the Co$. Many have openly remarked upon how this has been a tremendous help to them in their personal paths of healing.

There isn't a great deal I genuinely 'believe' or in which I have 'faith'. The following quote is one such.

And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

King James Bible, John 8:32

Now as we have both had the opportunity to express our individual views on the question of what is appropriate material for discussion on a public discussion board in a fairly complete fashion, unless you have some specific questions to ask of me, I think it would be best to put this particular exchange to rest.


Mark A. Baker
 

This is NOT OK !!!!

Gold Meritorious Patron
I've just caught up on the thread.

When I think of someone like Richard expending his life's talents as the Senior C/S FSO, it reminds me of what his "opportunity cost" was.

If you're not sure what I'm talking about, here's a short explaination: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opportunity_cost

My opinion is that his life was largely wasted as a member of one of the most successful mind-control cults in history.
 

Mick Wenlock

Admin Emeritus (retired)
What HAD been happening in Scandinavia?

I think I detailed it in my post on My Story, But basically it was this - I went back to Scandinavia in 1988 as the IAS Tour IC based at AOSH EU. Back in 1978 through 1982 I had been in FOLO EU and had spent a lot of time in the Scandinavian Orgs and was very familiar with them. When i got back in 1988 I was horrified to find that they were half the size they had been 5 years earlier. So I started doing classes and seminars on how to FSM and while doing that started finding out that people had been regged by the Flag Regges and FSMs on these insane deals for the L's. People had been co-signing each others' loans, co-signing many different loans. By the time I got there quite a few had had to leave staff because they could not pay their loans, several others were under investigation for credit fraud and this was throughout Sweden and Denmark. It was ludicrous.
 
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