Ron was a genius. OK, brilliant. Ok, above average intelligence.

[TheOriginalBigBlue]

Well no doubt Hubbard borrowed from Ruth. Just like he borrowed concerning sales. That sales book [don't recall title] was also taken off the shelves.

Big League Sales Closing Techniques By: Les Dane Publisher: Parker Publishing Company Copyright: 1971 Pages: 204




This was required reading for Sea Org Recruiters and probably Registrars. It includes methods for double teaming, divide and conquer, overcoming objections, realigning priorities, setting up compulsive or opportunity buying situations, etc.

 

[prosecco]

Well no doubt Hubbard borrowed from Ruth. Just like he borrowed concerning sales. That sales book [don't recall title] was also taken off the shelves.

Ruth Minshull? Did she write the tone scale book or do the illustrations?

 

[Cat's Squirrel]

Ruth Minshull? Did she write the tone scale book or do the illustrations?

She wrote it; I don't know who did the illustrations. It used to be available as an online download.

[EDIT: it still is, along with her book about bringing up children; "Miracles For Breakfast"]

http://www.goldcenturypress.com/ruth_minshull.php

 

[Terril park]

Whaaaa? You mean Hubbard didn't invent any of this? Is just common sense??

Common sense or good analysis.

A traumatic event will result in....trauma. If it dosn't something is
a bit askew with the individual.

Someone "high toned" or any non Scn equivalent would normally
bounce back and recover or mostly recover.

They would also be able to fluidly go up and down the tonescale
or non scn equivallent.

They would be resilient.

Someone always down tone or non scn equivalent, lets say sad, has
a problem.

 

[prosecco]

She wrote it; I don't know who did the illustrations. It used to be available as an online download.

[EDIT: it still is, along with her book about bringing up children; "Miracles For Breakfast"]

http://www.goldcenturypress.com/ruth_minshull.php

I couldn't get past, 'my two boys are swingers...'

 

[Terril park]

Hey edugui, this article by Jon Atack seems to clarify some of what we have been arguing about concerning Hubbard's genius.
http://tonyortega.org/2015/05/23/jo...for-l-ron-hubbard-and-the-snow-white-program/

"Jon Atack notices that the indies are still pretending that Scientology's founder, L. Ron Hubbard, had nothing to do with the organization's massive infiltration of the US federal government in the 1970s [Bolding added]. He [Atack] sets that record straight like no one but him can." - Tony Ortega

Note that Jon's observations while correct for some are not so for all. Some
fundamentalists think LRH was always correct, did no wrong, and no one else
is worth reading, etc. Not all FZers/indies are fundamentalists or think that way.
Some even spent 7 years attending every anon protest in there area.

 

[Terril park]

Well no doubt Hubbard borrowed from Ruth. Just like he borrowed concerning sales. That sales book [don't recall title] was also taken off the shelves.

Ruth borrowed from Hubbard for that book. Thats well known.

 

[Terril park]

I'd still argue that the hierarchy of moods is really arbitrary. A mood is only as good as the intention behind it. A person can be completely brainwashed as a Sea Org member and seem to be 4.0. But are they? A person can seem quiet or down and yet be deeply satisfied with life. Only that something in their genetic demeanor always seems a bit hesitant. How do we interpret the underlying truth of the appearance of a mood. It's too easy for me that we could simply look at these moods at all and say that they represent what they say they do.

So the question for me is really, is the mood that displays representative of reality? A manic depressive could appear quite uptone on the upside of a cycle. Yet the entire series of emotions are chemically expressive of an imbalance.

Not sure if moods have intentions.

An SO person may well be brainwashed and high toned. However he will
be operating on non self determined ideas, and mostly non workable ideas.
After a while of this he will deteriorate. Just papering org windows so he can't
see anon protesters brings him to effect. being told to do the impossible re stats
as usual operating procedure will also do the same. Being told that anons have
been destroyed when they ostensibly havn't won't help [-actual example]
and all the other lies they are told will eventally be noticed.

So you think those "quiet or down and are deeply satisfied with life?"
Read the stories of Ex SO. And find some who were deeply satisfied with life
while doing months or years of sec checks on beans and rice.

What is genetic demeanor?

A friend is bi-polar. When he goes uptone he is usually by force put in a
locked mental ward.

 

[Cat's Squirrel]

I couldn't get past, 'my two boys are swingers...'

I wonder what she meant by that?

 

[Cat's Squirrel]

Not sure if moods have intentions.

An SO person may well be brainwashed and high toned. However he will
be operating on non self determined ideas, and mostly non workable ideas.
After a while of this he will deteriorate. Just papering org windows so he can't
see anon protesters brings him to effect. being told to do the impossible re stats
as usual operating procedure will also do the same. Being told that anons have
been destroyed when they ostensibly havn't won't help [-actual example]
and all the other lies they are told will eventally be noticed.

So you think those "quiet or down and are deeply satisfied with life?"
Read the stories of Ex SO. And find some who were deeply satisfied with life
while doing months or years of sec checks on beans and rice.

What is genetic demeanor?

A friend is bi-polar. When he goes uptone he is usually by force put in a
locked mental ward.

As Maria was saying though, the manic phase of bipolar disorder shouldn't really be called "uptone".

 

[Terril park]

As Maria was saying though, the manic phase of bipolar disorder shouldn't really be called "uptone".

Should have put uptone in inverted commas.

 

[I told you I was trouble]

Emphasis mine.

Not sure if moods have intentions.

An SO person may well be brainwashed and high toned. However he will
be operating on non self determined ideas, and mostly non workable ideas.
After a while of this he will deteriorate. Just papering org windows so he can't
see anon protesters brings him to effect. being told to do the impossible re stats
as usual operating procedure will also do the same. Being told that anons have
been destroyed when they ostensibly havn't won't help [-actual example]
and all the other lies they are told will eventally be noticed.

So you think those "quiet or down and are deeply satisfied with life?"
Read the stories of Ex SO. And find some who were deeply satisfied with life
while doing months or years of sec checks on beans and rice.

What is genetic demeanor?

A friend is bi-polar. When he goes uptone he is usually by force put in a
locked mental ward.

As we know, one of the first things scientology teaches is "how to pretend you are happy" ... via that ridiculous tone scale.

The cofs seems to me to be the best place to go to if you need more stress, upset, debt and drama in your life, it's hard to believe there are people still there pretending their lives away.

 

[Hypatia]

Are they happy or not?

That may be a bit more complex. As Terril states, people are sometimes happy doing things that would make most of us quite unhappy. As Trouble says, though, they may be pretending- to others, to themselves.

Another possibility is that they are happy in a way, in accordance with the brainwashing they have received. Remember, they're living a lie. Staff and other dedicated culties do what they do because they are told they are saving the planet, "handling" their cases and all that. It's all lies, it's all bullshit. But they believe those lies. They believe the underlying premise. If they are doing what they set out to do- work toward something bigger and better- then that may make them happy despite the privation.

Now, take the same person, have him find out in some way that he's living a lie, that nothing he's doing helps anyone or anything, and make him do the same staff work. He's not going to be happy. There's no point to what he's doing; nothing to mitigate the privation and abuse.

When they go through his stuff while he's gone at post; when they tell him he can't leave; when they tell her that she has to have an abortion or that she has to leave her husband or never see her son or mom or friend again- this puts pain and sadness and duress into the equation. If the staff member starts wondering how the most ethical group on the planet and the people who are going to save everyone can't deal with a pregnancy or staff turnover or disagreement or just plain love between two people; the façade cracks and he's not gonna be happy. Enough cracks in the façade and he sees he's living a lie and that it's a cult. Those things that seemed to make him happy no longer will.

As brainwashing and conditioning fall away and the blinders come off and reality comes into focus, the person will discover that he would be truly happy living in the light of truth.

 

[Maria Cuervo]

I guess I can't see how someone can be brainwashed and high toned at the same time?
In that case they appear high tone but are really in propitiation? So it's not always possible from
appearance alone to tell what emotional state someone is in, and that is all I was wondering about.

Not sure if moods have intentions.

An SO person may well be brainwashed and high toned. However he will
be operating on non self determined ideas, and mostly non workable ideas.
After a while of this he will deteriorate. Just papering org windows so he can't
see anon protesters brings him to effect. being told to do the impossible re stats
as usual operating procedure will also do the same. Being told that anons have
been destroyed when they ostensibly havn't won't help [-actual example]
and all the other lies they are told will eventally be noticed.

So you think those "quiet or down and are deeply satisfied with life?"
Read the stories of Ex SO. And find some who were deeply satisfied with life
while doing months or years of sec checks on beans and rice.

Exactly my point...they are not actually deeply satisfied in that case.


What is genetic demeanor?

Some people just have natural mannerisms that can be interpreted incorrectly.
Physical traits, translated into movement, that should not be assumed to be related to
an emotional state. I can't really explain it too well.

A friend is bi-polar. When he goes uptone he is usually by force put in a
locked mental ward.

LOL on the friend. Well the question then? Was he really uptone.

Reminds me of when the oracle tells Neo in the matrix:
"Ohh, what's really going to bake you're noodle
later on is, would you still have broken it if I hadn't said anything? "



So about your friend, what really bakes my noodle is what uptone means given that what
appears to be uptone might not really BE uptone after all.

 

[Maria Cuervo]

Emphasis mine.









As we know, one of the first things scientology teaches is "how to pretend you are happy" ... via that ridiculous tone scale.

The cofs seems to me to be the best place to go to if you need more stress, upset, debt and drama in your life, it's hard to believe there are people still there pretending their lives away.

Denial: the other drug.

 

[Gib]

Re: Are they happy or not?

That may be a bit more complex. As Terril states, people are sometimes happy doing things that would make most of us quite unhappy. As Trouble says, though, they may be pretending- to others, to themselves.

Another possibility is that they are happy in a way, in accordance with the brainwashing they have received. Remember, they're living a lie. Staff and other dedicated culties do what they do because they are told they are saving the planet, "handling" their cases and all that. It's all lies, it's all bullshit. But they believe those lies. They believe the underlying premise. If they are doing what they set out to do- work toward something bigger and better- then that may make them happy despite the privation.

Now, take the same person, have him find out in some way that he's living a lie, that nothing he's doing helps anyone or anything, and make him do the same staff work. He's not going to be happy. There's no point to what he's doing; nothing to mitigate the privation and abuse.

When they go through his stuff while he's gone at post; when they tell him he can't leave; when they tell her that she has to have an abortion or that she has to leave her husband or never see her son or mom or friend again- this puts pain and sadness and duress into the equation. If the staff member starts wondering how the most ethical group on the planet and the people who are going to save everyone can't deal with a pregnancy or staff turnover or disagreement or just plain love between two people; the façade cracks and he's not gonna be happy. Enough cracks in the façade and he sees he's living a lie and that it's a cult. Those things that seemed to make him happy no longer will.

As brainwashing and conditioning fall away and the blinders come off and reality comes into focus, the person will discover that he would be truly happy living in the light of truth.

I'm reminded of this story:

http://www.lermanet.com/donna-shannon/

 

[Maria Cuervo]

Re: Are they happy or not?

I'm reminded of this story:

http://www.lermanet.com/donna-shannon/

THANK YOU.

I have just read this and it is amazing. I hope edugui reads it. I reallly do.

It deserves a thread. It is too important, too sincere and obvious.

Cheers to Donna. WOW. I am grateful for her story.

 

[Maria Cuervo]

This part of Donna's post really freaked me out:

"One goal of the cult is to enslave the planet. (Food for thought here- the terrorists who flew into the World Trade Center trained as pilots in FL. That's common knowledge. Did you know that they did at least 2 illegal landings-at night- at Clearwater Airpark? Right by the Hacienda. Coincidence? )"

 

[Edugui]

edugui, if you are still here, basically what I said is that the tone scale assumes that all moods that are negative are reactive and should be avoided or gotten rid of (and this further assumes we even have a ‘reactive’ mind).

This is wrong because all moods have a place and are part of being human. An angry or fearful mood is good in some situations. If someone told you tomorrow that they killed someone and as they spoke they smiled happily, it would make sense for you to be horrified. If there is a fire, one feels fear and other emotions as one spurs into action to save a child.

Worse about the ‘tone scale’, it pigeon-holes the emotions into an arbitrary sliding scale hierarchy where some emotions are higher than others. We know the low keys on a piano scale are not ‘evil’ or bad. They exist and they are played when appropriate. They appear in a pattern but NOT a moral hierarchy. If one played ANY key over and over no symphony would result. Emotions express the full range of human being. A very positive person can express anger and this doesn't mean anything. The tone scale misses the entire purpose and meaning and development in history of human emotions.

Basically, the tone scale is completely wrong.

I am curious how you can respond to what I said about tone scale and axioms.

Then tone scale tells you you are in a fixed mood in life, and from that mood comes a variety of behaviors, so you can understand and predict human behavior. And you can feel all, or almost all the emotions on every tone level.

 

[Little David]