Ruminations

[Lulu Belle]

Yet another hijacked thread. Think what you want to think, analyze however you want to, declare confirmation bias all you want. Just another hijacked thread.

THE NEW PURPOSE OF ESMB IS TO NAME OUT AND CONDEMN IN ANY WAY POSSIBLE BY ANY MEANS POSSIBLE THOSE PEOPLE, EX-SCIENTOLOGISTS OR NEVER INS, THAT CONDEMN THE CHURCH OF SCIENTOLOGY.

Anyone passing by would notice this. You wouldn't notice this if you were in the middle of trying to show the fallacies of the arguments. You would not object to this if you were trying to achieve the newly stated purpose.

Take a look at other threads. All this has been since the first week of August.

When I was newly out, I shopped around for a place to listen and learn. I stopped at Alanzo's blog, read a bit. Noticed the oddness and a elected to not stay because of that oddness.

Now that oddness is here at ESMB to stay, well for another 16 days and whatever.

So sad that this is the way it is now.

I wasn't going to mention it, since it was my hijacked thread, and I didn't want it interpreted as vanity butthurt, but...

I couldn't have said it better.

 

[Dotey OT]

View attachment 15724


I wasn't going to mention it, since it was my hijacked thread, and I didn't want it interpreted as vanity butthurt, but...

I couldn't have said it better.

I thought your post was awesome!!! And I appreciate your response. I was beginning to lose hope, believe me. Watch this thread get immediately put back onto track.


THE NEW PURPOSE OF ESMB IS TO NAME OUT AND CONDEMN IN ANY WAY POSSIBLE BY ANY MEANS POSSIBLE THOSE PEOPLE, EX-SCIENTOLOGISTS OR NEVER INS, THAT CONDEMN THE CHURCH OF SCIENTOLOGY.

 

[Caroline]

I know Warrior. Warrior wasn't in those positions AFAIK, but stood up to a lot.

I don't think anyone knows exactly how they'll respond in threatening situations. The longer a person is in the SO, the more the person is worn down. I remember an incident when LuluBelle stood up to management in her early years but then was forced to back down.

I've stood up and been forced to back down a few times. That happens when someone uses coercion and control of your child/ spouse/ family/ livelihood/ health/ freedom.

Spiritual beliefs can be extremely powerful as a control mechanism, too.

ADDED: Gerry Armstrong (who Caroline is defending here) was forced to back down in his court case when everyone else did. He would have had to go at it alone to continue. Painful and awful, but if we're being honest here, Gerry also backed down at that time, though he continued the fight in other ways when he felt stronger.

Gerry was betrayed. He has a personal axe to grind with Mike Rinder. Some people have been personally affected by him and they have a right to speak out.

My opinion on Mike Rinder is I love what he's doing now and what he's done with the show and all the work he's put in to helping people who were hurt by the cult of Scientology, but those people personally affected by him have a right to speak and tell their versions of what happened. I know of one, maybe two who are still angry. Alanzo is just stirring things up and has never told a personal story with Mike Rinder.

Please show me where Gerry Armstrong backed down. Here are the legal documents in Armstrong 1 (Church of Scientology of California v. Gerald Armstrong). These documents included litigated facts that Mike Rinder knew about L. Ron Hubbard and his organization in 1984. If anyone wants to browse the existing trial exhibits directly, btw, I've posted them to archive.org:

Trial Exhibits (Plaintiff and Intervenor)
Trial Exhibits (Defendant)

 

[Emma]

Sorry, but why do one or two posters all of a sudden redefine what ESMB is? Or are you redefining it? Should I change the header?

 

[He-man]

Sorry, but why do one or two posters all of a sudden redefine what ESMB is? Or are you redefining it? Should I change the header?

I don't see why not?

I always wanted to be a part of the new pottery movement, can ESMB not be about making pottery for the next 16 days?

 

[Dotey OT]

Sorry, but why do one or two posters all of a sudden redefine what ESMB is? Or are you redefining it? Should I change the header?

Quite a thing when you make a post and get a Winner from Alanzo.

Think about it.

 

[He-man]

Quite a thing when you make a post and get a Winner from Alanzo.

Think about it.

Butt the thread wasn't hijacked?

Lulu made an OP about MR and OSA, the way we all would've done whatever and what not and then it evolved?

Am I missing something here, is there back channeling happenings that Viking persons like me don't get to see?

 

[Emma]

Quite a thing when you make a post and get a Winner from Alanzo.

Think about it.

So I made a post that Alanzo likes. And that's bad. That must mean something. What does it mean?

 

[Emma]

I don't see why not?

I always wanted to be a part of the new pottery movement, can ESMB not be about making pottery for the next 16 days?

It might as well be. I feel like I need to apologise to everyone who has been offended by opinions that they don't share. It must be dreadful. Outrageous even.

I thought allowing all opinions that was the method to expand minds, but the scientists must be wrong.

 

[Alanzo]

In case anyone is not familiar with Zimbardo's Stanford Prison Experiment:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanford_prison_experiment

I don't know the best video treatment of this material. Some of the original footage is easily available.

Also relevant is Milgram's famous experiment:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_experiment

Paul

Hate to break it to you, mate, but science marches on.

I don't want to sound cruel because I know how important our excuses are, but the excuses for your own moral choices are drying up as the science continues to advance.

Will the Stanford Prison Experiment Ever Die?
The most famous psychology study in history has once again been debunked

"...As I discovered over two years of research and interviews with former participants, the true story of what happened during that August week in 1971 was very different. In June 2018, I published an article for Medium making a radical claim: The most famous psychology experiment of all time was a sham. To my surprise, the exposé made headlines all around the world, from Singapore to Denmark. Zimbardo decried this wave of criticism as unfounded attacks on his integrity. In response, more than 100 research psychologists around the world signed an open letter calling for open criticism as an essential part of the scientific process...."

It's a fascinating article. The sooner an Ex realizes that "brainwashing' is just an excuse that you tell yourself - and each other - for your own moral failures, the better off you are going to be. Dumping these excuses for your own behavior and decision-making can illuminate a very valuable side to yourself - where your true strengths and weaknesses are revealed.

The beginning of that process can be extremely uncomfortable - but there is a heap of treasure for you at the end.

Again, I realize that I sound cruel. But someone has to insert these ideas into this pity party and break this shit up. You are harming each other by continually telling each other these comfortable lies.

 

[Dulloldfart]

https://gen.medium.com/will-the-stanford-prison-experiment-ever-die-2cb906eba81a

Thanks for the link. Appreciated.

Paul

 

[ILove2Lurk]

Noticed the oddness and a elected to not stay because of that oddness.

There's a concept in the marketplace of ideas, and blogs for that matter,
of the "court of last resort."

People vote by sticking around . . . or actually voting with positive ratings
for ideas or people they like, agree with, enjoy, or bring them comfort.

Some people get a lot of upvotes or positive ratings:

​

Others, not so much:

​

Tells you all you need to know.



* Identity of the "302" withheld to prevent embarrassment.

 

[Alanzo]

There's a concept in the marketplace of ideas, and blogs for that matter,
of the "court of last resort."

People vote by sticking around . . . or actually voting with positive ratings
for ideas or people they like, agree with, enjoy, or bring them comfort.

Some people get a lot of upvotes or positive ratings:

View attachment 15727​

Others, not so much:
View attachment 15728
​

Tells you all you need to know.



* Identity of the "302" withheld to prevent embarrassment.

Yes. Tells you all you need to know.

 

[JustSheila]

Please show me where Gerry Armstrong backed down. Here are the legal documents in Armstrong 1 (Church of Scientology of California v. Gerald Armstrong). These documents included litigated facts that Mike Rinder knew about L. Ron Hubbard and his organization in 1984. If anyone wants to browse the existing trial exhibits directly, btw, I've posted them to archive.org:

Trial Exhibits (Plaintiff and Intervenor)
Trial Exhibits (Defendant)

He accepted a payoff and signed papers, that's all I'm talking about. Please don't be so bristly. I read your docs years ago about the circumstances and empathize. I never said Mike Rinder did or did not know about L Ron Hubbard and have no personal knowledge of that.

It really would be nice to stay with the thread topic here, though. Surely there are at least five or more threads that Alanzo started that are specifically about Mike Rinder that you can put your docs on so the two of you can have a bitch-fest together instead of taking over someone else's thread?

 

[Alanzo]

He accepted a payoff and signed papers, that's all I'm talking about. Please don't be so bristly. I read your docs years ago about the circumstances and empathize. I never said Mike Rinder did or did not know about L Ron Hubbard and have no personal knowledge of that.

It really would be nice to stay with the thread topic here, though. Surely there are at least five or more threads that Alanzo started that are specifically about Mike Rinder that you can put your docs on so the two of you can have a bitch-fest together instead of taking over someone else's thread?

Lulu's post topic has been very faithfully stuck to in this thread. It just so happens that not everyone here agrees with her and her take on things.

That's all.

The bubble world she has been used to on ESMB has burst.

 

[JustSheila]

Lulu's post topic has been very faithfully stuck to in this thread. It just so happens that not everyone here agrees with her and her take on things.

That's all.

The bubble world she has been used to on ESMB has burst.

What's wrong with the other six or so threads you started about Mike Rinder? Not enough people commented?

She was giving the history she knows from personal memory, something you cannot or will not do.

 

[lotus]

What's wrong with the other six or so threads you started about Mike Rinder? Not enough people commented?

She was giving the history she knows from personal memory, something you cannot or will not do.

There are some people who , over the years earned a great respect from the community because their sharing are of trust and fair to anyone ; and because there is no other agenda than to share. It is called generosity.

At the opposite of the spectrum,
There are other people, who over the years, have lost any credibility from many in the community because they don't share, they proletyze, they insult, they push forward their big guru ego, and they use ad homs and smearing when out of arguments, which is usually used by poor intellect.

Lulu Belle belong to the first category.

One can spit venom, it doesn't change who we know she is.

Those sharings are very informative; they are reports that in fact are helping one to make his\her own mind, taking facts in considerations instead of smearing false assumptions.

 

[Veda]

There's a concept in the marketplace of ideas, and blogs for that matter,
of the "court of last resort."

People vote by sticking around . . . or actually voting with positive ratings
for ideas or people they like, agree with, enjoy, or bring them comfort.

Some people get a lot of upvotes or positive ratings:

View attachment 15727​

Others, not so much:
View attachment 15728
​

Tells you all you need to know.



* Identity of the "302" withheld to prevent embarrassment.

Um... Weren't the totals for up votes erased a couple of years ago, while the total for posts made remained?

To be fair to Alanzo, his number of up votes would likely have been higher if the original number were intact.

There have been multiple versions of Alanzo, notably the orignal Alanzo, then the cult apologist Alanzo of the last last several years, oddly coinciding with Marty Ratbun's unfortunate transformation.

IIRC, there was the gushing-love of Marty&Mike version of Alanzo, and the hostile to Marty&Mike version, and, IIRC, these alternated for a while.

People usually change when they leave a cult. There have been three versions of Marty Rathbun and two versions of Mike Rinder.

Those who went through their changes prior to the Internet are spared having these changes electronically preserved.

Alanzo is peculiar as he seems to react, alternate, and bounce (as in a ping pong ball off walls).

How long he'll remain in his current state is anyone's guess.

 

[Alanzo]

Um... Weren't the totals for up votes erased a couple of years ago, while the total for posts made remained?

To be fair to Alanzo, his number of up votes would likely have been higher if the original number were intact.

There have been multiple versions of Alanzo, notably the orignal Alanzo, then the cult apologist Alanzo of the last last several years, oddly coinciding with Marty Ratbun's unfortunate transformation.

IIRC, there was the gushing-love of Marty&Mike version of Alanzo, and the hostile to Marty&Mike version, and, IIRC, these alternated for a while.

People usually change when they leave a cult. There have been three versions of Marty Rathbun and two versions of Mike Rinder.

Those who went through their changes prior to the Internet are spared having these changes electronically preserved.

Alanzo is peculiar as he seems to react, alternate, and bounce (as in a ping pong ball off walls).

How long he'll remain in his current state is anyone's guess.

Says the completely, interminably, stuck VEDA.

 

[Alanzo]

She was giving the history she knows from personal memory, something you cannot or will not do.

She wasn't just doing that - she was enforcing her views on who people were in Scientology and all the evil they did.

Lulu wrote:

And anyone else I knew on staff would have, too. And those who say they wouldn’t either have terrible memories or are deluding themselves. Because those were the rules and you followed them unquestioningly. ...
Those of us who lived it who have any kind of personal honesty know this. We may still harbor ill will to those who fucked us over or fucked over someone we knew or cared about. But even so, we get it. Those were the rules, and we followed them.

I called bullshit on that - totally on topic.

And I also gave other actual sworn testimony from both Marty Rathbun and Mike Rinder himself that contradicted Lulu's self-serving memory about Mike Rinder.