Ryan Hogarth, former Church of Scientology President, Declared Suppressive

Udarnik

Gold Meritorious Patron
<snip> The inflow of new members has practically stopped, it's only a matter of getting the existing staff & members to utilize some critical thinking skills.<snip>

Has it? I see the pics Black Rob posts from the Russian site, the number of attendees at the Kaohsiung Ideal Org rivals the number at the SP opening, and I see the attempts to recruit slave labor in Haiti. And I worry.

What DM needs is a set of fresh meat with limited resources to recruit into the SO, and a set of moderately affluent people who don't speak English all that well, and so will miss the entheta on the net until it's too late.

I think he has a plan for that, and someone, I think it was Terril, mentioned a while back that, like the hydra, this fucking thing was going to re-grow another head in Eastern Europe and on the fringes of Asia. Possibly South America, too, given the Colombian connection.

I don't think DM plans all that well, but he is a master at seizing targets of opportunity, and the environmental forces are driving him towards what is probably the best course of action, anyway. That's why I think that Taiwanese entheta site is so important. Can we get something going in Russia, too? What's $CN's strength in Poland? Czech Republic? Romania?
 
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Gib

Crusader
Has it? I see the pics Black Rob posts from the Russian site, the number of attendees at the Kaohsiung ideal Org rivals the number at the SP opening, and I see the attempts to recruit slave labor in Haiti. And I worry.

What DM needs is a set of fresh meat with limited resources to recruit into the SO, and a set of moderately affluent people who don't speak English all that well, and so will miss the entheta on the net until it's too late.

I think he has a plan for that, and someone, I think it was Terril, mentioned a while back that, like the hydra, this fucking thing was going to re-grow another head in Eastern Europe and on the fringes of Asia. Possibly South America, too, given the Colombian connection.

I don't think DM plans all that well, but he is a master at seizing targets of opportunity, and the environmental forces are driving him towards what is probably the best course of action, anyway. That's why I think that Taiwanese entheta site is so important. Can we get something going in Russia, too? What's $CN's strength in Poland? Czech Republic? Romania?

There are no new significant members in the USA.

Are you yourself buying into the PR?
 

TG1

Angelic Poster
Infinite,

I hear you.

However, you're ignoring the very obvious fact that for most people exiting the CoS that "Indie Scientologist" is a halfway house out of Scientology.

Plus, people leave "Indie Scientology" WAY faster than they leave the Church of Scientology.

You should view it as a great halfway house. :)

And for those who want to stay there, c'est la vie.

TG1

EDIT: A lot of people who initially ally with Indie Scientology aren't really doing any Scientology there. They're just hanging out with old friends they haven't seen for a long time.
 

Udarnik

Gold Meritorious Patron
There are no new significant members in the USA.

Are you yourself buying into the PR?

In the USA I totally agree. But there is a shitload of oil wealth sloshing around the former USSR. And a populace that is much less sophisticated in terms of bullshit detection. I'm just throwing the notion out there - don't count the chickens yet. Already I think the character of the SO at Flag is largely foreign. Now, those poor schmucks are not going to fill Davy's coffers, but Russian "businessmen" and Colombian kleptocrats might.

On the other hand, Putin might drop the hammer on Russian $cientology.

I don't know the answer because I don't have the income and recruitment figures, but I do believe that there is a possibility that the cult might survive this crisis and come to a new equilibrium of membership that is well north of the current estimate of 7500. This would prolong the survival of Davy's pyramid schemes, and I'm certain he's thinking about it. Can he execute on that strategy? I don't know.
 
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Gib

Crusader
In the USA I totally agree. But there is a shitload of oil wealth sloshing around the former USSR. and a populace that is much less sophisticated in terms of bullshit detection. I'm just throwing the notion out there - don't count the chickens yet. Already I think the character of the SO at Flag is largely foreign. Now, those poor schmucks are not going to fill Davy's coffers, but Russian "businessmen" and Colombian kleptocrats might.

On the other hand, Putin might drop the hammer on Russian $cientology.

I don't know the answer because I don't have the income and recruitment figures, but I do believe that there is a possibility that the cult might survive this crisis and come to a new equilibrium of membership that is well north of the current estimate of 7500. This would prolong the survival of Davy's pyramid schemes, and I'm certain he's thinking about it. Can he execute on that strategy? I don't know.

Good points. I understand.

Some questions. Not of you particularly.

How old is DM?

and who would replace him?

And prior, in scientology terms,

what is DM's case level?

what is his training level?

In the world of scientology. These are questions that the scientology members never ask.

These questions should be presented to the world in a PR manner to out PR scientology's PR.

Something Marty, Mike, Tony O fail to bring up.
 

Infinite

Troublesome Internet Fringe Dweller
Infinite,

I hear you.

However, you're ignoring the very obvious fact that for most people exiting the CoS that "Indie Scientologist" is a halfway house out of Scientology.

Plus, people leave "Indie Scientology" WAY faster than they leave the Church of Scientology.

You should view it as a great halfway house. :)

And for those who want to stay there, c'est la vie.

TG1

EDIT: A lot of people who initially ally with Indie Scientology aren't really doing any Scientology there. They're just hanging out with old friends they haven't seen for a long time.

Fair nuff, 'cept I ain't buying the "half-way house" PR spin. The term "half-way house" is a misnomer in this situation. No halfway-house I've heard of still makes the drugs available, even if they are watered-down, nor applies deleterious milieu control mechanisms. Also, as it has subsequently turned out, methadone is worse for you than heroin. But, of course, its not so often the drug which kills as much as the risks to health inherent in the lifestyle which an addiction requires of most people. At least those outside of the cult infrastructure don't have to live the lifestyle and, in most cases, tend to live quite differently and create a more healthy lifestyle. I just wonder how much sooner they would recover from the mindfuck were they not lied to about Scientology's history and the tech, and how much sooner the abuses could end if all the information was shared. These days, rather than a "halfway house", I tend to think of it as more of a "detour" and "information clearing-house" run by crims looking to stay out of jail and keep the show on the road.

Then again, I take heart from stories like Gib's above. It corroborates your analysis and I quite like the fact that ESMB, in some ways, represents the "Wall Of Fire" for those who are on their way out. If you can handle it here, then there's great hope for a full recovery or, at least, exposure to more than sufficient information so as to make an informed decision about where to next on the spiritual path.
 

Udarnik

Gold Meritorious Patron
Good points. I understand.

Some questions. Not of you particularly.

How old is DM?

53 or 54

and who would replace him?

Good question. He's stamped out most of the opposition with brains or backbone. Cruise?

And prior, in scientology terms,

what is DM's case level?

Nut.

what is his training level?

Class IV? Wasn't he kicked out of St. Hill for slapping a PC?

In the world of scientology. These are questions that the scientology members never ask.

These questions should be presented to the world in a PR manner to out PR scientology's PR.

Something Marty, Mike, Tony O fail to bring up.

Seriously, I think his case level is OTVII.
 

Infinite

Troublesome Internet Fringe Dweller
Good points. I understand.

Some questions. Not of you particularly.

How old is DM?

and who would replace him?

And prior, in scientology terms,

what is DM's case level?

what is his training level?

In the world of scientology. These are questions that the scientology members never ask.

These questions should be presented to the world in a PR manner to out PR scientology's PR.

Something Marty, Mike, Tony O fail to bring up.

Oh, I dunno. I've seen plenty about David Miscavige and his lack of required attributes. Thing is, running a criminal enterprise doesn't actually require a high-case / training level. In fact, the less time on the hypno-cans, the better. The defining "qualities" for running Scientology were identified by L Ron Hubbard's own example - gutter ethics, imagination, a criminal disposition, a moderate intellect, a charming facade, the ability to confabulate convincingly, brutality, and such a sense of personal isolation as to be able to sacrifice family and loved ones in the pursuit of money. Al Capone is another good example, although he did look after his own family.

When it comes to replacing David Miscavige there could be any number of contenders we've never heard of. I mean, how many public heard of David Miscavige before he clambered into the Mob Boss position? Also, isn't the question "who would replace him" somewhat petitio principii (begging the question)? So far, David Miscavige has been very dedicated in his following of L Ron Hubbard's methods and scripture. With this in mind, I suggest the more valid question might be "who will David Miscavige put up to front the cult while he goes off-lines?"
 
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TG1

Angelic Poster
Infinite, don't be a purist.

How many people have left the Church of Scientology in the last 5 years?

(I don't know either -- make a guess.)

I guess thousands. Perhaps 5,000?

How many of those are now Indie Scientoloists? Take a guess.

I guess hundreds. A few hundred.

So maybe a few more hundred hang out in groups and talk Scientology. But they are NOT doing it.

I think the thousands would not have left had there not been something to go to.

All that most Scientologists really need to leave is an excuse.

Once they've left, they no longer give much of a fuck.

And over time, they peel their own onions. There are too many resources to avoid seeing the truth.

TG1
 

Infinite

Troublesome Internet Fringe Dweller
Infinite, don't be a purist.

How many people have left the Church of Scientology in the last 5 years?

(I don't know either -- make a guess.)

I guess thousands. Perhaps 5,000?

How many of those are now Indie Scientoloists? Take a guess.

I guess hundreds. A few hundred.

So maybe a few more hundred hang out in groups and talk Scientology. But they are NOT doing it.

I think the thousands would not have left had there not been something to go to.

All that most Scientologists really need to leave is an excuse.

Once they've left, they no longer give much of a fuck.

And over time, they peel their own onions. There are too many resources to avoid seeing the truth.

TG1

I'd go further than that. I would say that since Anonymous turned up, at least 10,000 have escaped the cult and, of those, less than a few hundred have turned up on the Indie Dependent lines. (That's a guess based on an assumption that in 2008 there were 20,000 Scilons and now, according to Rinder, something like 7,500 left today to buy a new set of hypno-cans). Jesse Prince talks about his time when there were people escaping every day and his disappointment (more than resolved with his understanding) that, by far, most of them headed for hills never to be seen again. The Indie Dependents have certainly had a part to play in the exodus, but running their little outfit has had miniscule effect on providing somewhere to go, but the Indie Dependents have, IMHO, acted as a brake on the speed at which the abuses could end.
 

Type4_PTS

Diamond Invictus SP
Re: Rhodesia

> required to leave Rhodesia on or before July 18, 1966.
Thanks for all the information Infinite; I could not remember if it was before "Operation Snow White" :thumbsup:

The name of the Operation in Rhodesia was:
"Operation - Get the f**k out of our country by [STRIKE]Thurs @ 2:00 p.m[/STRIKE]. Monday!"
 

TG1

Angelic Poster
I'd go further than that. I would say that since Anonymous turned up, at least 10,000 have escaped the cult and, of those, less than a few hundred have turned up on the Indie Dependent lines. (That's a guess based on an assumption that in 2008 there were 20,000 Scilons and now, according to Rinder, something like 7,500 left today to buy a new set of hypno-cans). Jesse Prince talks about his time when there were people escaping every day and his disappointment (more than resolved with his understanding) that, by far, most of them headed for hills never to be seen again. The Indie Dependents have certainly had a part to play in the exodus, but running their little outfit has had miniscule effect on providing somewhere to go, but the Indie Dependents have, IMHO, acted as a brake on the speed at which the abuses could end.

Your statement bolded above makes me laugh.

Your logic on this, please.

And then, if you have them, your facts supporting your case.

Thanks,

TG1
 

HelluvaHoax!

Platinum Meritorious Sponsor with bells on
Infinite,

I hear you.

However, you're ignoring the very obvious fact that for most people exiting the CoS that "Indie Scientologist" is a halfway house out of Scientology.

Plus, people leave "Indie Scientology" WAY faster than they leave the Church of Scientology.

You should view it as a great halfway house. :)

And for those who want to stay there, c'est la vie.

TG1

EDIT: A lot of people who initially ally with Indie Scientology aren't really doing any Scientology there. They're just hanging out with old friends they haven't seen for a long time.



Hip Hip Halfway house!

I've noticed that nobody on the Indie sites seem to be "doing their Bridge" much. Indie Scientology is more like a social fraternity, class reunion or club. . .

The Theta Club.

And what do they do exactly at The Theta Club?

ANSWER: As far as I can tell it's some kind of word clearing. In their posts to each other, they take theta Scientology buzz-words and make up sentences using them.

"My goodness, your last post about keeping your com line in to Ron while he is at Target II really demonstrated your integrity!"

"When you refused to buy those orange sneakers that were on sale when you really wanted white ones, it showed that your code of honor is so in!"

"Wow, when you told that story about being on the RPF and secretly eating a half-eaten pizza slice that a public pc threw in the garbage, that was an amazing application of Ron's policy on insouciance!"


TGI, you can be honest with me. Am I going to go to hell for posting stuff like that about the Scn halfway house? LOL.




 

Lone Star

Crusader
I'd go further than that. I would say that since Anonymous turned up, at least 10,000 have escaped the cult and, of those, less than a few hundred have turned up on the Indie Dependent lines. (That's a guess based on an assumption that in 2008 there were 20,000 Scilons and now, according to Rinder, something like 7,500 left today to buy a new set of hypno-cans). Jesse Prince talks about his time when there were people escaping every day and his disappointment (more than resolved with his understanding) that, by far, most of them headed for hills never to be seen again. The Indie Dependents have certainly had a part to play in the exodus, but running their little outfit has had miniscule effect on providing somewhere to go, but the Indie Dependents have, IMHO, acted as a brake on the speed at which the abuses could end.

That last paragraph is complete nonsense, or twaddle. And I didn't go through the indy route. I have no use for scientology in any package or wrapper. The idea of auditing nauseates me.

But to say the indys have put a brake on efforts to stop the abuses? Ridiculous.
 

Infinite

Troublesome Internet Fringe Dweller
Your statement bolded above makes me laugh.

Your logic on this, please.

And then, if you have them, your facts supporting your case.

Thanks,

TG1

I'm not sure laughing about unnecessary abuses is altogether healthy for you. Lets talk about some of the macro things the M&M Show could do. How about killing off the tax-exempt status by telling the truth about how it was gained?

Oh, hang on, according to Rinder . . .

. . . We operate in societies that afford protections to the practice of religion not extended to “movements”. Of course, those protections can be twisted to attempt to hide abuses (like the RCS does), but they do protect everyone’s rights to choose their path to spiritual enlightenment and participate in the practices that bring them there.

I have experienced what it is like to have litigants sue you without the protection afforded a religion. Or the oversight of various government agencies who are restrained by laws that prevent them meddling in the affairs of religion. The category of “religion” has value. There is no doubt in my mind (confirmed by numerous courts and scholars) that Scientology IS a religion. I wouldnt be in a big hurry to abandon the protections that categorization provides — even practitioners who the church might want to take legal action against have an invisible force field erected around them as long as they keep practicing their religion . . .

What about the fact that the whole thing is and always has been a scam and that all the illegal acts carried out by Scientology have had the single purpose of protecting exposure of the fraud.

Oh, hang on, according to Marty . . .

. . . L Ron Hubbard developed a workable spiritual-based psychotherapy that when applied as prescribed – according to its axioms and fundamental laws – routinely produces a well and happy, self-determined, unrepressed being. Since leaving the church of Scientology I have applied that exact path to three individuals – from knowing little to nothing of Hubbard or Scientology to the state of Clear (quite in addition to hundreds of hours of auditing at all levels of the Bridge) . . .

What about revisiting the Lisa McPherson murder by depraved indifference. There's been a bunch of stuff released, thanks very much, but where's the rest of it and how can we use it to have the matter re-opened for investigation or at least a reminder to a new generation of activists.

Oh, hang on, according to Rinder . . .

. . . she [Lisa] DID die of a pulmonary embolism – it happens all the time in hospitals with doctors on call – so it is not certain that medical attention would have saved her life . . .

Alright then, what about something simple, something which might help unite the community opposed to Scientology's abuses, something which might spark a realisation that attempts at healing are underway as a wider understanding is developing the further out from the cult experience the perpetrators get . . .

[video=youtube_share;EpKxMplCFL8]http://youtu.be/EpKxMplCFL8[/video]​

. . . hilarious.
 

Outethicsofficer

Silver Meritorious Patron
Holy Cherub (my new favorite saying) I posted on the S. African website and said they best look into the LRH background because the abuses didn't start with DM. Harrumph! Despite their Mission Statement claiming they want honesty and openness, my post was "moderated" - meaning deleted - and I was told that "haters" who "distain Scientology and LRH" cannot post there.

Oh, and I had also posted a link to www.tonyortega.org within my post. In reference to that, whoever wrote back to me said that people are "permitted" to read at Tony's website if they want to.

I wrote back and told them I was sorry to offend, wished no ill to anyone and that the truth about LRH and documentation to back it up are out there and not going away.

These poor people have a lot of unpleasant waking up coming in their future, don't they?

They do have a lot of waking up to do and some will be unpleasant too...however no matter the desire for them to do so it is in fact a considerable drink for them, or anyone, to take. Not something easily done in one sitting. Even after one has made a transition of sorts the journey is pock marked with ah ha moments on the way out. Decompression as in a deep sea diving is an apt metaphor for it if ever there was one.
 

TG1

Angelic Poster
What you said, Infinite, was this:

"... the Indie Dependents have, IMHO, acted as a brake on the speed at which the abuses could end."

I wasn't talking specifically about Marty and/or Mike, but the group of Indie Scientologists -- of which there are bloody few.

At what great speed were abuses being ended before this latest group of Indie Scientologists arrived on the scene? I didn't see any great speed.

But since you brought up Marty and Mike, I think their testimony against the Church's abuses -- in the media and in litigation from Florida to Texas to California matters -- has addressed specifically the Church's abuses in the form of financial extortion, dirty tricks and harassment, forced abortions, and forced labor.

EDIT: And to imply that I was laughing at the Church's abuses (and not your statement bolded above) is just stupid.

TG1
 

Panda Termint

Cabal Of One
Fair nuff, 'cept I ain't buying the "half-way house" PR spin. ...
Let's face it, Infinite, you simply don't understand scientologists very well. It's no big deal! I base my opinions about Indie/FZ scientology on actual observation of friends and acquaintances traveling that route. I support the existence of Indie/FZ scientology based on actual, observable results. They all, sooner or later, come to terms with what occurred in the CofS. That's a VERY good thing, IMO. I don't care one whit if a person wishes to pursue a belief in Hubbard's technology, I only care that they're free of that Suppressive Regime that is the CofS.
 
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