Hang on - Napoleon was a professed Catholic as, I think Hitler was too. Pagan tribes may believe in gods and rocks but that is still 'religious'. A barbarian tribe that sacrifices babies to placate a god is being "religious".
Napoleon was not religious, nor was any of his family. Fascinating discussion about Napoleon manipulating others because of his disdain for their religious beliefs is here
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20090903212549AAVjA34
Hitler's religious beliefs are a matter of dispute, I'll give you that. On one hand, he claimed his actions were ordained by God when speaking to crowds, but he also completely stopped participating in the Catholic church or any other since he was a young boy. It appears he only said what he thought would make him appear acceptable to others. Hitler's mother was Jewish. One popular theory is that Hitler was motivated by his hatred and resentment for the religion of Judaism and all religions.
Throughout history, "pillage and plunder" was primarily about status and the gaining of women, slaves and goods to enhance a tribe or people's survival - religion was often secondary as a motive.
Sure, lots of barbarian tribes had pagan religions, but from what we know of the Germanic tribes, they weren't guided by any central concept of religion or practice.
References:
http://www.infoplease.com/ce6/society/A0820624.html
http://www.heritage-history.com/www/heritage.php?Dir=wars&FileName=wars_cimbrian.php
Mick, it's not like you to make statements of opinions like that which are contradicted by facts. I am disappoint
, I normally love debating with you. Now how about some good, factual arguments, please?
But your post begs the question - you assume without proof that your underpinning concept of "respect and fair treatment" is some sort of axiomatic status. What is fair treatment for a child molester? What is "respect" for someone who believes it is OK to enslave people or to steal from them?
Where does your "basic humane" concept come from?
I am not disagreeing with you, per se, just seeking wider explanation.
You've reversed my statement as an axiomatic statement, i.e., if we have an overriding concept that if we are raised to treat others fairly and respectfully, then all will do so. That's not exactly what I said, but I like the way you reversed it and it's close enough. Good fodder for discussion.
Of course it's not a cureall. People cannot be trusted to blindly follow any set of rules.
They need to be taught to think with concepts of fairness, justice and be valued for their skills and contributions. You know, Plato's ideal society sort of thing. The majority try to do the right thing and are simply misled.
It never applies to ALL.
The real question is, "How do we treat criminals who insist on being abusive no matter what the system is?"
I don't have any magic answers. You know that.
You mention child abusers. Mick, I'm in a unique situation of being in close contact with a person who has this intention as an obsession but has not committed the crime, probably due entirely to my discover of his secret and my constant reminding him how criminal it is and intervening. I'll call him "Joe". I've been trying to resolve this issue with Joe for years. Bloody time consuming and frustrating! And YES, he's also a psychiatric patient - I successfully made him go over a year ago (he lied about seeing the psych prior to that), but the psych does not use drugs as yet and is still puzzled what is wrong with him and how to address it. "Joe" has been going through brain scans and cognitive tests and things all that time, too. No results of any kind from the psych... Joe just lies to him. Except ONCE.
Talking to Joe doesn't help. He is a chronic lyer, hider, deceptive and manipulative. He does not respond to cognitive therapies of any kind. But wow! Can he go on and on how great he feels and how his life has changed and how successful these therapies are!
Yet turn around and try to subvert some young person the next day. I'm sick of babysitting, and with no crime committed YET, the police aren't the least bit interested.
But behavioural conditioning DOES work.
There is NOTHING in his background to have caused him to be this way. He has no conscience. He does what he feels. Sometimes he feels like doing good things, sometimes he feels like doing bad things. Fortunately, he has SOME fear or respect for authority as well as fear of public humiliation if his secret was disclosed.
I BELIEVE I have finally found a workable way of keeping him harmless and possibly helping him without consuming all my time. When he's acting nutty, worked up, he is sent to his room for the night (frig, food, toilet and comforts provided). In the beginning, his daughter & I locked the room. He is now in the habit so it is not necessary and we don't do it anymore unless he's acting particularly nutty.
He has also been cut off from anyone he can manipulate as a sympathetic ally. These have been informed of his real motives and the truth of what he does. It wasn't easy, he's an amazing liar because he actually seems to believe his lies at the time he says them or at least has no concept that lying or deception is wrong. Convincing anyone otherwise is hard work. What a sweet guy! Um.... NO.
And all week long, he goes to group 12-step sessions. Sometimes three times a day.
So he has a social outlet and the concepts are beat into his brain every day of the week. Miss a day or two and he goes back to being deceptive and manipulative, sneaky pervert destructive person.
He works as well, but his work people already know him well enough to stay away from him, so no worries there.
So far, so good.
Yeh, he's nuts. He'd qualify as a 2-1/2 percenter for sure. No soul, no conscience. Really, really weird but fascinating, too. Oh, and all possible health issues of every kind have been explored. Brain scans, blood tests, etc. all show nothing, too.
Other societies have put these sort of people to death, locked them up, excommunicated them, all sorts of things.
What an irony that
positive brainwashing (12 step 12 step 12 step) and mild, humane restraint can actually work on a person like this but nothing else does. He ONLY responds to behaviour modification and positive messages constantly drummed into his brain. He is a bit afraid of the police - I don't use that much because I don't want him to lose that fear.
REMEMBER, "Joe" has
not committed any sexual crimes against women or children. But he is
completely capable of doing so and has bouts of violent destructiveness, which he hides.
Your comments, suggestions & feedback are welcome.