Scientologists and Freezone reasoning

[The Anabaptist Jacques]

“The Tech works!“ is the mantra I hear all the time from Scientologist and most Freezoners I encounter. I was going to write a long dissertation about how illogical they are when defending or claiming that the Tech works. Instead, I’ll just show a dialogue:

Scientologist/Freezoner: Bread always lands butter-side down when you drop it.
Me: Not always. It may seem that way because when it does fall butter-side down it makes such a mess that you remember those times rather than the times when it didn’t.
Scientologist/Freezoner: No. Bread always lands butter-side down when you drop it.
Me: Let’s experiment and see. (I butter some bread and hand it to the Scientologist/Freezoner and tell them to drop it. They do, and it lands butter-side up)
Me: See, that proves it. It doesn’t always land butter-side down.
Scientologist/Freezoner: No, bread always lands butter-side down when you drop it. This only means you buttered the wrong side.

The Anabaptist Jacques

 

[Zinjifar]

You will recognize your liberation from Scientology when you cease to think that arguing with a Scientologist *goes* anywhere

The Merry-G0-Ron has an entrance and a ticket booth, but, the exit is at the back of the *same* line.

Salvation is running out of money or being arrested for littering.

Zinj

 

[Tanstaafl]

Well the tech definitely creates effects.

Whether those effects are desireable or long-standing is another point entirely.

"The Tech Works" - it's just meaningless.

I've never said this before, so a trumpet fanfare is in order:

Show me a motherfuckin' Clear!

So, is that a being who no longer has his own reactive mind but is seriously out-ethics on the second dynamic?

 

[nexus100]

Well the tech definitely creates effects.

Whether those effects are desireable or long-standing is another point entirely.

"The Tech Works" - it's just meaningless.

I've never said this before, so a trumpet fanfare is in order:

Show me a motherfuckin' Clear!

So, is that a being who no longer has his own reactive mind but is seriously out-ethics on the second dynamic?

Um, yeah. So, you were saying?

 

[Tanstaafl]

Um, yeah. So, you were saying?

Sorry - I'm totally in dispersed mode today.

 

[EastAnon]

“The Tech works!“ is the mantra I hear all the time from Scientologist and most Freezoners I encounter. I was going to write a long dissertation about how illogical they are when defending or claiming that the Tech works. Instead, I’ll just show a dialogue:

Scientologist/Freezoner: Bread always lands butter-side down when you drop it.
Me: Not always. It may seem that way because when it does fall butter-side down it makes such a mess that you remember those times rather than the times when it didn’t.
Scientologist/Freezoner: No. Bread always lands butter-side down when you drop it.
Me: Let’s experiment and see. (I butter some bread and hand it to the Scientologist/Freezoner and tell them to drop it. They do, and it lands butter-side up)
Me: See, that proves it. It doesn’t always land butter-side down.
Scientologist/Freezoner: No, bread always lands butter-side down when you drop it. This only means you buttered the wrong side.

The Anabaptist Jacques

TAJ,

This only works with peanutbutter. But there's more interesting experiments to be done:

A cat always lands on its feet. What happens if you strap a peanutbuttered sandwich upside down to the back of a cat, and throw the combination out a window (all hypothetically of course)?

 

[Iknowtoomuch]

I just can't get serious about the FZ. It's like what Christianity is to Catholicism...same source (sorry to use the word source), different outcome.
So it's pointless imo. :confused2:

 

[Voltaire's Child]

“The Tech works!“ is the mantra I hear all the time from Scientologist and most Freezoners I encounter. I was going to write a long dissertation about how illogical they are when defending or claiming that the Tech works. Instead, I’ll just show a dialogue:

Scientologist/Freezoner: Bread always lands butter-side down when you drop it.
Me: Not always. It may seem that way because when it does fall butter-side down it makes such a mess that you remember those times rather than the times when it didn’t.
Scientologist/Freezoner: No. Bread always lands butter-side down when you drop it.
Me: Let’s experiment and see. (I butter some bread and hand it to the Scientologist/Freezoner and tell them to drop it. They do, and it lands butter-side up)
Me: See, that proves it. It doesn’t always land butter-side down.
Scientologist/Freezoner: No, bread always lands butter-side down when you drop it. This only means you buttered the wrong side.

The Anabaptist Jacques

I don't see where that would be any different from the many many posts I've read (and answered) that say "it doesn't work." "It's drivel." "it's this.It's that." People have opinions about it. That's all it is. Some of us refer to our experiences rather than what we're told to think. (got enough of that in the cult, thank you very much.)

Also, consider this- Scn'ists who speak with critics, skeptics, etc, are often asked why they are interested in Scn, particularly those of us who've left CofS. So when you ask a question, the answer you get is the answer you get.

I personally don't use the logic you mention in your hypothetical and I don't think most non CofS Scn'ists do. You fail to mention that many non CofS Scn'ists have posted frequently that we think Hubbard's claims were exaggerated and that some lies were told. You are misrepresenting a lot of people here.

 

[Voltaire's Child]

I just can't get serious about the FZ. It's like what Christianity is to Catholicism...same source (sorry to use the word source), different outcome.
So it's pointless imo. :confused2:

No offense- you know I like you, but--

really...what's there for you to "get serious" about? You're not a Freezoner and if you're not, you're not. Why would you be called upon to get serious about an ideological choice made by others?

 

[gomorrhan]

And, of course, the source is actually irrelevant. What matters is whether or not their methods work to achieve the goals set forth by them.

I still haven't met anyone who caused this universe to exist, or controls it in any manner other than any other human being.

If the goal of the FZ is creation of OTs, I still haven't met any.

 

[Terril park]

I still haven't met anyone who caused this universe to exist, or controls it in any manner other than any other human being.

I take that as the message of the factors.

 

[Terril park]

“The Tech works!“ is the mantra I hear all the time from Scientologist and most Freezoners I encounter. I was going to write a long dissertation about how illogical they are when defending or claiming that the Tech works. Instead, I’ll just show a dialogue:

Scientologist/Freezoner: Bread always lands butter-side down when you drop it.
Me: Not always. It may seem that way because when it does fall butter-side down it makes such a mess that you remember those times rather than the times when it didn’t.
Scientologist/Freezoner: No. Bread always lands butter-side down when you drop it.
Me: Let’s experiment and see. (I butter some bread and hand it to the Scientologist/Freezoner and tell them to drop it. They do, and it lands butter-side up)
Me: See, that proves it. It doesn’t always land butter-side down.
Scientologist/Freezoner: No, bread always lands butter-side down when you drop it. This only means you buttered the wrong side.

The Anabaptist Jacques

Please write the dissertation of how all psychotherapy, self improvement,
positive posulates are also fail.

This may be more impressive than your imagined conversations with a retard.

Oh! You took them seriously?

 

[KnightVision]

And, of course, the source is actually irrelevant. What matters is whether or not their methods work to achieve the goals set forth by them.

I still haven't met anyone who caused this universe to exist, or controls it in any manner other than any other human being.

If the goal of the FZ is creation of OTs, I still haven't met any.

This is an excellent point... It's amazing to me how advocates continue to preach the effectivness of the tech- (even when not being controlled by Co$ to do so), (and even call it science) AND even when it's clearly evident that Hubbard's own definition of a Clear and an OT has never been achieved. Excuse me advocates...


HELLO!!! WAKE UP PEOPLE!!! YOU'RE BRAINWASHED!

If one wanted to say "there are some processes in it that might provide relief from psychologically painful experiences", fine- maybe it does for some... But I think that the reason they won't say so even if they know it's so is cause they could be charged for practicing medicine without a license.
And if they actually don't see the big mushy holes in the logic of it- It's cause they don't own their own thoughts. That's the end product of all "tech services".... some type of "win" or benefit at the expense of one's self determinism and their free, critical thinking. Thus one does not progress any further... One ceases to explore any further and is stuck thinking that only "the tech" can solve certain problems.

 

[gomorrhan]

Well, I can certainly see that this occurs in the Church (although I'll bet that there are a significant number of "tech" personnel who actually know a great deal about what can and cannot be done with the tech for someone, even if they ignore their own knowledge while hoping for better outcomes or blaming failures on PTSness... just takes a bit of willingness to accept your own "knowingness" to bring this out).

In the FZ it also occurs, I think, but with much less regularity. Without the heavy indoctrination of the Church, people shake out of the groupthink over time. Some cease being scientologists, some continue to consider themselves scientologists, while holding opinions and beliefs which are antithetical to "Standard Tech" or Hubbard's opinions. In the FZ, at least a person is free to form their own opinions and test out their knowledge. In the Church, this is not allowed, except under heavy indoctrination.

 

[KnightVision]

No offense- you know I like you, but--

really...what's there for you to "get serious" about? You're not a Freezoner and if you're not, you're not. Why would you be called upon to get serious about an ideological choice made by others?

From my perspective, it's not a matter of "getting serious" about it... it's about stating one's viewpoint. A viewpoint that is accurate and truthful. Most everybody on this board sees the Co$ as useless and or dangerous, but many differ on their views about the tech. When those who advocate and continue it in the FZ, WITH UTTER DISREGARD FOR THE SERIOUS MENTAL PROBLEMS AND SUFFERING SO MANY HAVE ENDURED AS A RESULT OF BEING "CORRECTLY PROCESSED" - APART FROM THEIR SUFFERING AT THE HANDS OF THOSE WHO MANAGE THE CO$.........

It's a matter of simple honesty and responsibility. This boards readers are not just those who have familiarity with "the tech", there are many who come here to see what the initiated think, know and talk about. Is one supposed to believe that FreeZooners are so excellent at delivery that they deliver Hubbard's tech without any negative effects? They may deliver it cheaper but it's the same stuff and even if delivered "correctly", it still causes problems. It takes a certain type of screwed up mind to go into psychoanalysis session and start believing that one's fascinating mental hallucinations are actually real events that took place lord knows how many gazillions of years ago, on planet "MindGone"- and have a "WIN" having realized it- EXCUSE ME BUT THAT CAN AND DOES CAUSE INSANITY. If you or others dig it and won't ever, ever, ever bother to ever look at that objectively- HEY... knock you heads off!!! BUT PLEASE DO NOT ADVOCATE IT TO OTHERS WITHOUT THE BLACK BOX WARNING. Jeeez- Just unreal!

 

[Voltaire's Child]

This is an excellent point... It's amazing to me how advocates continue to preach the effectivness of the tech- (even when not being controlled by Co$ to do so), (and even call it science) AND even when it's clearly evident that Hubbard's own definition of a Clear and an OT has never been achieved. Excuse me advocates...

Well, I'm certainly an advocate, but a cautious one. I've always admitted the claims re OT, clear, etc are exaggerated, but that doesn't mean that nothing happens at all.

HELLO!!! WAKE UP PEOPLE!!! YOU'RE BRAINWASHED!

No, people who still retain interest in Scn after leaving CofS are generally going by their own experiences. Taking someone else's word for it would be a response to indoctrination or brainwashing or at the very least, not thinking it out oneself. Which is why I don't give credence to the many "wake up people...you're brainwashed" type posts that occasionally grace the noble halls of ESMB. If I did, then THAT would be brainwashing.

If one wanted to say "there are some processes in it that might provide relief from psychologically painful experiences", fine- maybe it does for some... But I think that the reason they won't say so even if they know it's so is cause they could be charged for practicing medicine without a license.

Not true. I've often said it's not for everyone and that the claims made by Hubbard (and by the present day CofS management) are exaggerated. I know a lot of Freezoners who have publicly opined similarly.

And if they actually don't see the big mushy holes in the logic of it- It's cause they don't own their own thoughts. That's the end product of all "tech services".... some type of "win" or benefit at the expense of one's self determinism and their free, critical thinking. Thus one does not progress any further... One ceases to explore any further and is stuck thinking that only "the tech" can solve certain problems

I think you have to know what people think and say before you can evaluate it and it really does not appear that you do. It seems that you and AJ (no offense, AJ, you know I luv ya, right?) are inventing things that "Freezoners" (and, one assumes, other non CofS Scn'ists) think and feel and then attributing it to them.

 

[Voltaire's Child]

From my perspective, it's not a matter of "getting serious" about it... it's about stating one's viewpoint. A viewpoint that is accurate and truthful. Most everybody on this board sees the Co$ as useless and or dangerous, but many differ on their views about the tech. When those who advocate and continue it in the FZ, WITH UTTER DISREGARD FOR THE SERIOUS MENTAL PROBLEMS AND SUFFERING SO MANY HAVE ENDURED AS A RESULT OF BEING "CORRECTLY PROCESSED" - APART FROM THEIR SUFFERING AT THE HANDS OF THOSE WHO MANAGE THE CO$.........

It's a matter of simple honesty and responsibility. This boards readers are not just those who have familiarity with "the tech", there are many who come here to see what the initiated think, know and talk about. Is one supposed to believe that FreeZooners are so excellent at delivery that they deliver Hubbard's tech without any negative effects? They may deliver it cheaper but it's the same stuff and even if delivered "correctly", it still causes problems. It takes a certain type of screwed up mind to go into psychoanalysis session and start believing that one's fascinating mental hallucinations are actually real events that took place lord knows how many gazillions of years ago, on planet "MindGone"- and have a "WIN" having realized it- EXCUSE ME BUT THAT CAN AND DOES CAUSE INSANITY. If you or others dig it and won't ever, ever, ever bother to ever look at that objectively- HEY... knock you heads off!!! BUT PLEASE DO NOT ADVOCATE IT TO OTHERS WITHOUT THE BLACK BOX WARNING. Jeeez- Just unreal!

I, for one, would be outraged and broken hearted if there never were any negative effects from Scn auditing. Anything that does anything at all is going to have things go wrong sometimes. Life just isn't either/or.

 

[KnightVision]

I, for one, would be outraged and broken hearted if there never were any negative effects from Scn auditing. Anything that does anything at all is going to have things go wrong sometimes. Life just isn't either/or.

You would be outraged???? Have you not read the many stories of those who have suffered, gone delusional, had psychotic breaks, committed suicide as a result of this "tech"?

Please, if you don't want to take a good hard look at that fact and do some hard core research into it, do me a favor would ya- just ignore me.

 

[Voltaire's Child]

You would be outraged???? Have you not read the many stories of those who have suffered, gone delusional, had psychotic breaks, committed suicide as a result of this "tech"?

Please, if you don't want to take a good hard look at that fact and do some hard core research into it, do me a favor would ya- just ignore me.

I said what my reasons were. I'll reiterate and possibly rephrase. Yes, I'd be outraged and broken hearted if it never went wrong. That would mean it was inert and didn't do anything.

That's exactly why some things go wrong (sometimes) and sometimes end tragically with NON SCN therapies, too. Because those methods do affect people which means they can be utilized. NOTHING that has beneficial effects lacks the capability of being misused or of causing problems.

And, yes, I have done the research. I've written nothing indicating I don't care to take a look, etc. In fact, I've written a lot of commentary on terrible tragedies like Lisa McPherson, Raul Lopez, and Jeremy Perkins and I certainly did not take a "UR doing it rong" stance.

I would very much appreciate it if you wouldn't invent motives and then attribute them to me. They were, as it happens, incorrect.

 

[KnightVision]

I said what my reasons were. I'll reiterate and possibly rephrase. Yes, I'd be outraged and broken hearted if it never went wrong. That would mean it was inert and didn't do anything.

That's exactly why some things go wrong (sometimes) and sometimes end tragically with NON SCN therapies, too. Because those methods do affect people which means they can be utilized. NOTHING that has beneficial effects lacks the capability of being misused or of causing problems.

And, yes, I have done the research. I've written nothing indicating I don't care to take a look, etc. In fact, I've written a lot of commentary on terrible tragedies like Lisa McPherson, Raul Lopez, and Jeremy Perkins and I certainly did not take a "UR doing it rong" stance.

I would very much appreciate it if you wouldn't invent motives and then attribute them to me. They were, as it happens, incorrect.

At the end of the day... IMHO the argument is ruduced down to this:

Hubbard made outrageous claims associated with Dianetics and Scientology that have never been proven to be possible and thus can be said to be outright lies, just the same as his many NOT personal achievements. Those same outrageous claims have drawn unsuspecting thousands to try it and become hooked on it in a never ending attempt to achieve those results (Have you heard Tory's and others stories concerning this?). They therefore continue along and expose themselves more and more to it, eventually leaving it (most have), and yet some others lose their minds (not simply because it was not correctly applied) because they are psychologically stuck between "can't achieve the fabulous results Hubbard claimed" and if they stop... "they'll never be spiritually free". Still others end up "Having to eat crow and admit that they've been taken, conned" which causes much silent suffering that can last a lifetime.

What's really sad about that is that out if the outrageous claims had not been held out like a carrot (bait) I (and I believe the majority) would have never gotten involved with it. Most everybody I know has some "mental baggage" but it's manageable- it's not significant enough to hinder leading a positive and effective life. So the interest in it comes from believing that the outrageous claims put forth are achievable for oneself. Thats a fiasco and fraudulently leading. Further my observations have sufficiently proven to me that the "tech" creates a dependency in it users that is hard to shake, much less even to realize that it's happened. It traps people.

No matter what advocates say or what beliefs or wins or benefits or statements of workability exist or come forth... the above reality is shared by myself and IMHO the majority of those who tried or used it.