Scientology and Hypnotism — Even some ex-members can’t admit its central role

Elronius of Marcabia

Silver Meritorious Patron
the title says it all

The title is bait IMO Gib

who are these some ex members ?

who are these now trolls and gaslighters ?

strawmen and scarecrows ?

Is it me ? or maybe you ?

Thing is if you don't name names then you cant be directly argued with
on the assumption made by the "author"

I don't agree with either Jon Attack or Mockingbird as to the central role
of hynotism, yes it has a role "Central one" ?

Making me "unable to admit it" I guess is the view the author wants to advance:yes:




Fine add my name to your list , I may want to argue it at some later point:coolwink:
 

I told you I was trouble

Suspended animation
Thread has already grown too long for my leisurely attitude with reading threads... But Scientology is damn well hypnotism! - And BTW. Any scientologist will agree to being hypnotised, if they believe L.Ron Hubbard anyway.. But not by Hubbard or 'The Tech'.. See, Dianetics is all about, so it says in the book, to remove hypnotic commands from your subconscious mind,. called 'Engrams' and 'Reactive Mind', respectively.. Hubbard denies, vehemently, that Dianetics and Scientology is hypnotism, but actually he admits that it is in the first book, 'Dianetics, The Modern Science of Mental Health'. He says that the 'Preclear' is brought into a mild state of 'reverie' in a session.

But, as we're aware, Scientologists are often fanatic with a vengeance. Giving all their money, and then some, to Scientology. Abandoning their kids to Scientology's Sea Organization. Staying in the Cult, as public or staff despite being treated like shit, slaves and criminals... This subservient behavior is very hard to explain without considering hypnotism, which we more commonly call brainwashing.

I stayed on and put up with shit for far longer than anyone who know me would ever expect. I don't feel that I was hypnotized as such, but my 'behavior' at the time belies that!

:yes:


I had [STRIKE]problems[/STRIKE] issues with auditing from the start (apart from "life repair" which I quite enjoyed) because I had very few "engrams" to "audit" and little interest in searching for stuff that either wasn't there or wasn't bothering me in the first place and I refused to have children in the SO after seeing how they were treated and arranged to be fitness boarded out when I was ready to have them. I'm not being deliberately awkward about this (lol, perish the thought) but that is how it was for me and I suspect for many others who just haven't voiced it here yet.

I completely agree with your line above (I bolded it) and am very wary of fanatical people generally. Those who leave a cult or religion after a long term stay and immediately transfer their fanaticism elsewhere and "demand" to be heard and taken too seriously make me especially wary, that's a hard thing to say without causing offence and I do realise that but I care very much about ESMB so I've (eventually) said it anyway and perhaps should have from the start.

I've more than had enough of this thread too and my main interest in it was to keep some semblance of balance (we have hundreds of lurkers reading at any given time, many could be thinking of joining us) ... tubs hubbard was an arse and would have used anything feasible to trap people in his cult but he really wasn't that clever and he didn't hypnotise me.




:happydance:
 

Elronius of Marcabia

Silver Meritorious Patron
I had [STRIKE]problems[/STRIKE] issues with auditing from the start (apart from "life repair" which I quite enjoyed) because I had very few "engrams" to "audit" and little interest in searching for stuff that either wasn't there or wasn't bothering me in the first place and I refused to have children in the SO after seeing how they were treated and arranged to be fitness boarded out when I was ready to have them. I'm not being deliberately awkward about this (lol, perish the thought) but that is how it was for me and I suspect for many others who just haven't voiced it here yet.

I completely agree with your line above (I bolded it) and am very wary of fanatical people generally. Those who leave a cult or religion after a long term stay and immediately transfer their fanaticism elsewhere and "demand" to be heard and taken too seriously make me especially wary, that's a hard thing to say without causing offence and I do realise that but I care very much about ESMB so I've (eventually) said it anyway and perhaps should have from the start.

I've more than had enough of this thread too and my main interest in it was to keep some semblance of balance (we have hundreds of lurkers reading at any given time, many could be thinking of joining us) ... tubs hubbard was an arse and would have used anything feasible to trap people in his cult but he really wasn't that clever and he didn't hypnotise me.




:happydance:

said it before and I say it again, if your trouble gimme a boatload :)
 

Gib

Crusader
The title is bait IMO Gib

who are these some ex members ?

who are these now trolls and gaslighters ?

strawmen and scarecrows ?

Is it me ? or maybe you ?

Thing is if you don't name names then you cant be directly argued with
on the assumption made by the "author"

I don't agree with either Jon Attack or Mockingbird as to the central role
of hynotism, yes it has a role "Central one" ?

Making me "unable to admit it" I guess is the view the author wants to advance:yes:




Fine add my name to your list , I may want to argue it at some later point:coolwink:

I think it is a combination of hypnosis & Rhetoric.

regards the OP, Jon Atack follow-up article is about undue influence, or persuasion.

http://tonyortega.org/2014/11/01/jo...-like-those-in-scientology-unduly-influenced/

I think people from the earlier whistle blowers where missing the datum that Hubbard studied Rhetoric and used Dean Wilbur's book on Rhetoric to partially formulate dianetics and scientology. Which is why I post about Rhetoric, to educate.

For instance, Hubbard says if you establish authority over a person, you can influence the person.

Well, in Rhetoric the 3 means of persuasion are ethos, pathos & logos. And ethos is establishing authority.

http://www.artofmanliness.com/2010/12/21/classical-rhetoric-101-the-three-means-of-persuasion/

In my view, Hubbard combined the two.
 

Gib

Crusader
I had [STRIKE]problems[/STRIKE] issues with auditing from the start (apart from "life repair" which I quite enjoyed) because I had very few "engrams" to "audit" and little interest in searching for stuff that either wasn't there or wasn't bothering me in the first place and I refused to have children in the SO after seeing how they were treated and arranged to be fitness boarded out when I was ready to have them. I'm not being deliberately awkward about this (lol, perish the thought) but that is how it was for me and I suspect for many others who just haven't voiced it here yet.

I completely agree with your line above (I bolded it) and am very wary of fanatical people generally. Those who leave a cult or religion after a long term stay and immediately transfer their fanaticism elsewhere and "demand" to be heard and taken too seriously make me especially wary, that's a hard thing to say without causing offence and I do realise that but I care very much about ESMB so I've (eventually) said it anyway and perhaps should have from the start.

I've more than had enough of this thread too and my main interest in it was to keep some semblance of balance (we have hundreds of lurkers reading at any given time, many could be thinking of joining us) ... tubs hubbard was an arse and would have used anything feasible to trap people in his cult but he really wasn't that clever and he didn't hypnotise me.




:happydance:

I agree, but he was clever.

I think hubbard Rhetorically hypnotized us.

He controlled us to a certain degree. Some more (those that joined the SO), some less (those that were staff members) and some even less (those known as public).
 

mockingbird

Silver Meritorious Patron
Well , I did not write that article or pick the title so I will leave it to Jon to address that issue ( or not) .

I can save a lot of speculating and just say I am using add to ignore as I choose to and if I do not respond to some posts I may be ignoring that person .

They may or may not be...anything.

I am here to do some things and not others .

I am not FORCING ANYONE to read or answer these posts which is lost on some .

Almost everybody who keeps coming back knows my name and game - I am Mockingbird and I firmly state that Dianetics and Scientology are largely hypnotic mind control combined with other methods of persuasion to harm minds , make a fraud and enslave people .

I want Scientology abolished and see no possibility for correction or taking out " good "parts etc.

I am not here to debate this even at this point - just to state it and break down HOW it works and can be through education stopped .

Some people will say" well you don't know , maybe this other idea is right ... "

Yeah , I am open to some things but uh , you can say I have made up my mind on some things- as you I am sure have.

I think the world is not flat and am close minded and stubborn on that issue - well for me this is an equal or even greater level of certainty.

I may be wrong but I will humor myself and proceed as if I am right.

Any who vehemently disagree are free to not read my posts and not talk to me !

You have that right .

Now , I have a pertinent quote that Jon Atack was kind enough to post in the article entitled Jon Atack on the Hypnotic History of Scientology Auditing at the Underground Bunker.“you are putting in positive suggestion whether you want to or not, no matter how careful you are.”R&D1, p.336 L Ron Hubbard

See , Hub figured out that with enough altitude you are in fact -whether the person is sleepy or not - bypassing the critical factor and your pc,student , staff etc. is being implanted REGARDLESS of your intention !

This is why transference is a problem , and undue influence exists .

Additionally Jon had this in the excellent article Never Believe a Hypnotist ( also free online) from L Ron Hubbard :
"And in order to get people to sit very alertly and do exactly what he says, he has another trick: he gives them examinations ... So there is this anxiety around a
person's grades, and this comes forward until he finally gets up to a point in education where when somebody says the word examination to him
it not only push-buttons him but it also threatens Mama, Papa, love and general survival.

It is a terrific whip. It keeps people in a state of confusion, and when their minds are slightly confused they are in a hypnotic trance. Any time anybody gets enough altitude he can be called a hypnotic operator, and what he says will act as hypnotic suggestion.
Hypnotism is a difference in levels of altitude.

There are ways to create and lower the altitude of the subject, but if the operator can heighten his own altitude with regard to the subject the same way, he
doesn't have to put the subject to sleep. What he says will still react as hypnotic suggestion." (R&D 4, p.324; see also R&D 3, pp. 246 & 248).

See without hypnotism there is no real explanation that holds any water WHY people disregard the contradictions and lack of proof and bizarre doctrine and a million other things that a heightened state of suggestibility can and does explain . Not to mention the fact that I can now show HUNDREDS of examples of the use of well established hypnotic techniques in the doctrine from my memory alone.

That is verbatim - or near verbatim - ( I do not quite have a photographic memory but I can remember hundreds of things I " studied" in Dianetics and Scientology ) of the materials a Scientologist uses - now that I have studied several sources of info on hypnotism , persuasion , language and cult methods and undue influence .

I do not just see the doctrine as contradictory and insane or strange- I see the patterns of persuasion much clearer almost every day .

I will write much more to make it incredibly obvious what the patterns are and how they work and how you can explain them even to never-ins as the methods and their effects are tied together.

I am VERY fortunate to follow Jon and Arnie as they have made my job several hundred times easier by doing a lot of work long before I ever dreamed of leaving the cult .

If people want to have this thread go in another direction I can start another or I can just drop some more stuff right here.

But I have already made it clear to shut me up someone will have to kill me .
 

Elronius of Marcabia

Silver Meritorious Patron
What role do you believe it has?

I think it varys person to person and a mixture of hypnosis and rhetoric
and in large part something that gets left out as a basic part.

People wanta help themselves and others, its human nature very basic and Hubbard did and Scientologists do "prey"
on that instinct like a vulture, and when you take that out of the mix, Hubbard and all
his twisted perverted hypnotic occultic rhetorical horseshit con gets way too much credit.

afterthought edit in bold

One of my first revelations as to the con was "it uses your own power against you"
 
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phenomanon

Canyon
There are several people who don't like this one or that one, and several other people who don't like some other one. And they often engage in whispering campaigns. And here someone has opted to listen to them.

Who are the several people?
Who are this one and that one?
Who are the several other people?
Who is the same other one?
Who is the same other ones who often indulge in whispering campaigns?
Who are the someone here who has opted to listen to them?

WTF are you talking about?
 

lotus

stubborn rebel sheep!
Who are the several people?
Who are this one and that one?
Who are the several other people?
Who is the same other one?
Who is the same other ones who often indulge in whispering campaigns?
Who are the someone here who has opted to listen to them?

WTF are you talking about?

Hum...
Let's be cause over unknowingness of unprecedented order of magnitude

What do you prefer - Either

189e114af1e35565915ed2b05bdd7d5c.jpg


:biggrin:

or

tarot7.jpg


Make a decision, right here , right now! :yes:
Uncertainty can ruin your life!
 
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cleared cannibal

Silver Meritorious Patron
Hum...
Let's be cause over unknowingness of unprecedented order of magnitude

What do you prefer - Either

189e114af1e35565915ed2b05bdd7d5c.jpg


:biggrin:

or

tarot7.jpg


Make a decision, right here , right now! :yes:
Uncertainty can ruin your life!

I remember being pressed to be certain about some past life date in processing. I came up with something but as a financial guy(John Mauldin) I follow said"One can be certain about something which is wrong." No where is this more common than in Scn. I think Scn presses you to be certain and they don't give a F--- if it is true or not. It is sort of a mind conditioning (Hypnosis?) to get you to follow orders and accept info without question.
 

lotus

stubborn rebel sheep!
Despite we agree or not, it has become obvious for years, to ordinary ex-$cientologists, researchers, specialists in cult, sociology, psychology ....

that

$cientology doctrine, teck and processing IS a corpus of work designed to abuse people while featuring the most refined used of many techniques in the field of mental and behavior manipulation, alteration - which usually use hypnosis and suggestion as well as coerced means.

- Study tech is definetely used as an attempt at mind modulation with suggestion
- Auditing is definitely an attempt to focus the mind to certain area - even though are ''invented pseudo - event - pseudo beings'' that never proved to exist (hypnosis to implant time track)
- Ethics, is tech to enforce both when one fail to submit

Wether people recognise they have been subjected to such mind technology or not - doesn't nullify it happened, they only can or can't remember, are aware or not, feel or not it has happened or has not happened...

Only MHO

But, I recognized, while in, I had adhere to things I would normally had not, or did things stupid and bad. I can recognize I was not myself at that time.
It took time to recover my true self after leaving; thousands of hours to meditate , educate myself and recover the awareness, education, critical thinking ,values I had lost at that time.

I am not interested in dessection of the subject hypnosis\$cientology neither get a degree in hypnosis to understand how it was involved, It's obvious to me it was as it is mind and behavior control from A to Z, wether it is called hypnosis or ethics.

But I can get that some pople need to get into the details of it, and also that some other avoid the subject (for the last I have my theory , but keep it for me at this time)

I appreciate to read all other opinions and experiences on the thread.

p.s
One thing I found particurlarly critical, concerning the identification of processing or tech value, is that I came to believe the true meaning of it, (mind manipulation and control), had been mixed or covered with innofensive, helpfull, interesting basic stuff took out from other philosphers, researchers, psychologists, school of admin etc..

ex: communication emphasis on terminal a sending intention comm to terminal b who is attentive to be the recipient able to duplicate. Yes very good. I"ve earn it in university com course. When applied, yes can improve communication. But it has been took from traditionnal communication degree courses. It's old stuff - not $cientology!

But the use of it, in $cientology, is to dominate people and control them. (TR's 8C - intention - impingment)

Clarifying words in the dictionnary - yes very good;
Mum ''Coerced'' us to do that for homeworks, a dictionnary was mandatory - so we were litterate. Nothing new. Dictionnaries aer old. The $cientology use, is to enforce new definition with words for futur mind manipulation. ($cientology tech dictionnary)

The auditor code in part is a copy of any therapist ethics code. But in $cientology, it is not applied to the benefit of the pc, but to the benefit of the organisation.

So the good stuff is perverted as a mean justifying the end - the firm's benefit $$$$
while some may retain the value of the little good in it , some other sees the intention by the results.
 
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Gib

Crusader
I am not interested in dessection of the subject hypnosis\$cientology neither get a degree in hypnosis to understand how it was involved, It's obvious to me it was as it's mind and behavior control from A to Z, wether it is called hypnosis or ethics. But I can get that some pople need to get into the details and also the some other avoid the subject (for the last I have my theory , but keep it for me at this time)

I appreciate to read all other opinions and experiences on the thread.

agree with you Lotus,
for your whole post.

However are we not doing this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socratic_method

which we were not allowed in scientology?

(sure, tempers will flare, no doubt about it)

so why are you posting and discussing?
 

Lermanet_com

Gold Meritorious Patron
I agree, but he was clever.

I think hubbard Rhetorically hypnotized us.

He controlled us to a certain degree. Some more (those that joined the SO), some less (those that were staff members) and some even less (those known as public).

Keep in mind that WHATEVER the techniques used in scientology,

They are capable of turning a daughter against a mother, a son against a father,

or inducing suicide...

Such is not the work of rhetoric alone.

===============


It has always been the writers contention that Hitler is the greatest hypnotist of our day" G. H. Estabrooks 1943
 
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lotus

stubborn rebel sheep!
agree with you Lotus,
for your whole post.

However are we not doing this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socratic_method

which we were not allowed in scientology?

(sure, tempers will flare, no doubt about it)

so why are you posting and discussing?

Yes,

ESMB is a nice place for Socrate method - which stimulate critical thinking :yes:
This is why I like this place - reading discussions opened my mind and help me to make my own conclusions - I would never come to any $cientology issues resolving alone, with introspection, as the truth comes from many angles.

But there is also rhetorhic talk, that may happens, to wag the dog
(evade the issue ; hide the real issue ; sidestep the issue ; obfuscate ; cloud the issue ; bamboozle ; blind with science ; duck the issue )
This is more a way of pushing an agenda, rather than discussing to get the more viewpoints and information .
It sometimes happens with very specific subjects when LRH and the pseudo-tech is concerned.

I myself, sometimes, push my own agenda - which is against $cientology and it's hubbardism slavery!
:wink2:
 
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phenomanon

Canyon
Despite we agree or not, it has become obvious for years, to ordinary ex-$cientologists, researchers, specialists in cult, sociology, psychology ....

that

$cientology doctrine, teck and processing IS a corpus of work designed to abuse people while featuring the most refined used of many techniques in the field of mental and behavior manipulation, alteration - which usually use hypnosis and suggestion as well as coerced means.

- Study tech is definetely used as an attempt at mind modulation with suggestion
- Auditing is definitely an attempt to focus the mind to certain area - even though are ''invented pseudo - event - pseudo beings'' that never proved to exist (hypnosis to implant time track)
- Ethics, is tech to enforce both when one fail to submit

Wether people recognise they have been subjected to such mind technology or not - doesn't nullify it happened, they only can or can't remember, are aware or not, feel or not it has happened or has not happened...

Only MHO

But, I recognized, while in, I had adhere to things I would normally had not, or did things stupid and bad. I can recognize I was not myself at that time.
It took time to recover my true self after leaving; thousands of hours to meditate , educate myself and recover the awareness, education, critical thinking ,values I had lost at that time.

I am not interested in dessection of the subject hypnosis\$cientology neither get a degree in hypnosis to understand how it was involved, It's obvious to me it was as it is mind and behavior control from A to Z, wether it is called hypnosis or ethics.

But I can get that some pople need to get into the details of it, and also that some other avoid the subject (for the last I have my theory , but keep it for me at this time)

I appreciate to read all other opinions and experiences on the thread.

p.s
One thing I found particurlarly critical, concerning the identification of processing or tech value, is that I came to believe the true meaning of it, (mind manipulation and control), had been mixed or covered with innofensive, helpfull, interesting basic stuff took out from other philosphers, researchers, psychologists, school of admin etc..

ex: communication emphasis on terminal a sending intention comm to terminal b who is attentive to be the recipient able to duplicate. Yes very good. I"ve earn it in university com course. When applied, yes can improve communication. But it has been took from traditionnal communication degree courses. It's old stuff - not $cientology!

But the use of it, in $cientology, is to dominate people and control them. (TR's 8C - intention - impingment)

Clarifying words in the dictionnary - yes very good;
Mum ''Coerced'' us to do that for homeworks, a dictionnary was mandatory - so we were litterate. Nothing new. Dictionnaries aer old. The $cientology use, is to enforce new definition with words for futur mind manipulation. ($cientology tech dictionnary)

The auditor code in part is a copy of any therapist ethics code. But in $cientology, it is not applied to the benefit of the pc, but to the benefit of the organisation.

So the good stuff is perverted as a mean justifying the end - the firm's benefit $$$$
while some may retain the value of the little good in it , some other sees the intention by the results.

Thank you for the wonderful post, Lotus.
 

mockingbird

Silver Meritorious Patron
lotus , thanks - part of what I try to avoid is when it appears that someone is disrupting a thread INTENTIONALLY for fun or ...whatever .

So , if that appears to be the case to me I just discourage that and eventually add to ignore .

See , somebody bitterly disagreeing AND coming back again and again can be frustrating .

Of course I am not perfect and can knock out a person who is sincere and not a troll or jerk at all .

It happens . But I am not the God of ESMB and they can write THEIR OWN posts and threads and the community can judge and interact with them for themselves.

So , I do not knock out their free speech - I just discourage what COULD be their attempts to knock out MINE .

People can write - Mockingbird is wrong and an asshole and has his head fifty miles up his ass threads all day every day !

Knock yourself out ! I will happily write my Scientology is a fraud and hypnotic mind control and here is how it works and I want the cult taken down and I want YOU to do research on this stuff to benefit your own recovery etc. etc . threads !

See , you can use the Socratic method : " The oldest, and still the most powerful, teaching tactic for fostering critical thinking is Socratic teaching. In Socratic teaching we focus on giving students questions, not answers. We model an inquiring, probing mind by continually probing into the subject with questions. Fortunately, the abilities we gain by focusing on the elements of reasoning in a disciplined and self-assessing way, and the logical relationships that result from such disciplined thought, prepare us for Socratic questioning.

As a tactic and approach, Socratic questioning is a highly disciplined process. The Socratic questioner acts as the logical equivalent of the inner critical voice which the mind develops when it develops critical thinking abilities. The contributions from the members of the class are like so many thoughts in the mind. All of the thoughts must be dealt with and they must be dealt with carefully and fairly. By following up all answers with further questions, and by selecting questions which advance the discussion, the Socratic questioner forces the class to think in a disciplined, intellectually responsible manner, while yet continually aiding the students by posing facilitating questions.

A Socratic questioner should:
a) keep the discussion focused
b) keep the discussion intellectually responsible
c) stimulate the discussion with probing questions
d) periodically summarize what has and what has not been dealt with and/or resolved
e) draw as many students as possible into the discussion. "

Paul, R. and Elder, L. (April 1997). Foundation For Critical Thinking,
Online at website: www.criticalthinking.org)

Now , I think the Socratic method is several thousand times better than Scientology indoctrination for developing one's mind .

I am not exaggerating that number at all .

But , before any one thinks I absolutely see it as a perfect method let me show you something.

The term, "Socratic paradox" can also refer to a self-referential paradox, originating in Socrates' utterance, "what I do not know I do not think I know", often paraphrased as "I know that I know nothing."

See , Socrates great emphasis on debate and thought and persuading in argument is somewhat... impractical - IF taken TOO far .

Maybe HE did not use it this way but some who have come after him act like using rhetoric and established rules of debate can make "winning " arguments or debates trump EVERYTHING !

Including common sense and reason ! See , if the great debater proudly proclaims they know nothing -to not have any position for opponents to attack -, simply say " so , do you need to eat to live ? " or something they demonstrably KNOW and will DO .

Yeah , yeah some will say this is all an illusion blah blah...BUT at some point if you move completely away from reality I say what are you doing besides pretending to be smart ?


And sometimes people acting like they are questioning are just trying to disrupt threads and you have to act differently than you would in discussion or debate .

From the Underground Bunker and the article Jon Atack on Scientology's methods of 'thought stopping '. - I will borrow the following quote:

The great philosopher, John Stuart Mill, opposed the authoritarian regime of his time in his remarkable text On Liberty, published in 1859. Among the good advice that he offers is this, and I recommend it as an antidote to the restrictive thinking of Scientology:

“There must be discussion to show how experience is to be interpreted. Wrong opinions and practices gradually yield to fact and argument; but facts and arguments, to produce any effect on the mind, must be brought before it. Very few facts are able to tell their own story, without comments to bring out their meaning. The whole strength and value, then, of human judgment depending on the one property, that it can be set right when it is wrong, reliance can be placed on it only when the means of setting it right are kept constantly at hand. In the case of any person whose judgement is really deserving of confidence, how has it become so? Because he has kept his mind open to criticism of his opinions and conduct.”

See , I understand MY opinions and ideas must be brought out to be examined and questioned and even at times disagreed with or refuted as the process of critical thinking.

Okay , they are falsifiable and that is how it should be.

BUT , BUT with the internet comes a new obstacle to communication and Socratic or any other reason ...and that is the troll !!!


The dreaded and loathsome creature does not play nice or fair and can disrupt threads ( and thought ) and trollish behavior - intended or not- has to be curtailed or you are just pissing up a tree .

Now , some can say I am too heavy handed and have my head three feet up my ass - and I cannot in fairness dispute this !

But , we all have to pick where to draw the line on some issues and this is it for me .

I hope for folks who stick around I and what I write helps - or at least entertains .
 
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