Scientology and mindfuck

Isene

Patron with Honors
“He will eventually turn around.” “He’s just going through a phase.” “He’s still a kool-aid drinker – give him a couple of more years and he will wake up.” Etc.

You may cringe at the arrogance of the ex-Scientologists and Anonymous when they condescendingly belittle you with statements like the above. Like they somehow “know” what you are all about. Like crack pot tarot card readers. Even when they themselves never even set a foot inside a Church of Scientology.

I used to cringe. Because that arrogance does nothing but create animosity. It serves only to prolong any recovery from the Scientology mindfuck.

But, they are more than half-right.

What I find in common among the majority of scientologists – in or out of the church – is a worrying introspection. A tendency to look inward, find faults with themselves, worry about being PTS, about committing overts, about having missed withholds, about being restimulated, about their postulates (not) coming true, about being effect (of SPs), about what might have caused that ulcer, etc. Much looking inward and toward the past. I used to do the same – but oddly enough it was OT 8 that got me out of that. Ironic it is. (Google the terms above if you need to)

Scientology is the opposite of the Fuck It ideology. It makes for over-serious people wrought with emergencies and nervous anxiety about not having control or “being cause”. In my experience, it tends to make people less productive.

More here (with relevant linking):

http://isene.me/2013/06/23/scientology-and-mindfuck/
 

Axiom142

Gold Meritorious Patron
Are ex-Scientologists and Anonymous ‘arrogant’?

I’d have to take exception with you there, Geir. Undoubtedly there are some rather arrogant people among the two categories that you mentioned, but from my experience the vast majority are not in the least bit arrogant.

I know that I am not necessarily a typical example of the first category (actually I’m not a typical anything, but that’s a different matter :coolwink: ), but leaving the cult and having to face the awful realisation of how stupid I had been, was a very humbling experience. Looking back on my 22 years in the cult and taking a fresh look at those who are still in, it is very obvious to me that being in a cult such as the CoS creates arrogance amongst its adherents on an epic scale.

This is inevitable and actually very common with people who ‘know’ that they alone possess the truth / can save mankind / save the universe / are otherwise vastly superior to the rest of mankind. They have to be. Otherwise, why would they put up with all the crap that goes with being someone else’s minion?

But I take your point about creating animosity. Personally I don’t think it helps and just drives the victims of the cult deeper into their gilded cages. But what do I know – perhaps some need a damn good shaking and to be told in no uncertain terms just how stupid they are and how they need to wake the fuck up?

I read the article on your blog and was intrigued by this: “One thing that helped me a lot during my 25 years in Scientology was that I never had much expectations of what to gain from the various levels. I was curious and open to what they could bring. Not having expectations means not being prone to disappointments. Looking back, I believe this was my saving grace.”

Perhaps this goes some way to explaining the different perception of what you went through when compared to me. I did have very high expectations and I was bitterly disappointed. Maybe I was hopelessly naïve, but I believed what I was told. Now, of course I know that it wasn’t just as simple a thing as people telling lies because they were trying to con me, many had actually convinced themselves that it was true. The victims of the scam were running it for the puppet master.

Scientology makes people less productive? Yes, I suppose that is true. Certainly there can be the appearance of a lot going on, people rushing around, lots of noise, lots of money changing hands – all that stuff. But when you get down to it, not much really happens that is positive. No one attains the abilities of Clear, superbeings are not created, the forces of chaos are not defeated. OK, so perhaps one particular person makes a lot of money which might be good for him but very bad for most. And, some do acquire an improved and more positive attitude to life and all that stuff, but for the vast majority being in a cult is a crushing and destructive experience.

I appreciate that you have your own experiences and you got many positives from your time in Scientology, but there are many who were seriously harmed. And I’m not talking about those who were a bit pissed off because they spent a load of money and didn’t become super or those that got fed up with being regged day and night or ‘wanted’ to be a victim or suffered those countless other shitty indignities that being a cult member brought them. I’m talking about serious, life-changing, even life-ruining harm to many thousands of decent human beings who’s only crime was to trust too much or perhaps be born to parents who were sucked in to something they couldn’t comprehend.

Axiom142
 

Udarnik

Gold Meritorious Patron
Scientology is the opposite of the Fuck It ideology. It makes for over-serious people wrought with emergencies and nervous anxiety about not having control or “being cause”. In my experience, it tends to make people less productive.

Looking on with some measure of horror and wonder, as an outsider it seems to me this is a feature, not a bug, from the point of view of the founder. A control feature.
 

Isene

Patron with Honors
Are ex-Scientologists and Anonymous ‘arrogant’?

I’d have to take exception with you there, Geir. Undoubtedly there are some rather arrogant people among the two categories that you mentioned, but from my experience the vast majority are not in the least bit arrogant.

I am not saying that the majority of ex'es or anons are arrogant, but it does come across as arrogant when they condescendingly belittle a scientologist for "not having waken up just yet", etc. However true it may be, arrogant it is.

The rest of your comment: Yep.
 

Gadfly

Crusader
I am not saying that the majority of ex'es or anons are arrogant, but it does come across as arrogant when they condescendingly belittle a scientologist for "not having waken up just yet", etc. However true it may be, arrogant it is.

The rest of your comment: Yep.

I have told others that they need to wake up, without being condescending at all.

Not many actual "scientologists" come to ESMB (unless here with an agenda). Where is it that actual "scientolgists" go where they can be arrogantly attacked? Anyone who comes here proudly wearing THAT label, of a "scientologist", will summarily be pounced upon (and rightfully so). What possible purpose could a person who considers his or herself to be a scientolgoist have coming here to ESMB? Their usual and typical arrogance, which has been carefully indoctrinated into them by way of the Scientology system, will be countered by attacks of the same in reverse.

I spell it all out and explain why. Now, yes, there are some here and elsewhere who tend towards extreme make-wrong and invalidation.

In truth Geir, you were pretty damned arrogant yourself when you initially landed in ex-Scientology land - trying so feverishly to hold onto the delusion . . . . . . going on and on about it with extended essays, blogs and detailed analytical explanations . . . . :confused2:

But you seem to be unraveling quite well, just as some of us knew that you probably would. :yes:

Am I arrogant for saying that? :confused2:

Having seen SO MANY people unravel from the Scientology mindfuck over so MANY years, one gets rather good at predicting the process. :biggrin:
 

Veda

Sponsor
:) Let me see if I understand this:

A person is mildly neurotic, and become a Scientologist, and becomes intensely - Scientologically - neurotic, then does OT 8 and becomes only mildly neurotic again.

Some are disappointed.

But those who had low expectations are not disappointed.

Question: Are you sure that not being disappointed is not a continuation of the mind fuck?

Sounds as though the person should be disappointed.

As for the people who say things like, "He'll eventually turn around," "He's just going through a phase," etc., the Scientologist should be grateful for such people - people who express concern about someone they see as giving over his/her mind to a cult.
 

Isene

Patron with Honors
In truth Geir, you were pretty damned arrogant yourself when you initially landed in ex-Scientology land - trying so feverishly to hold onto the delusion . . . . . . going on and on about it with extended essays, blogs and detailed analytical explanations . . . . :confused2:

I agree. And I am working on ironing out any arrogance that I have.

But you seem to be unraveling quite well, just as some of us knew that you probably would. :yes:

Am I arrogant for saying that? :confused2:

It does come across as arrogant when you tell a person that you know that a person will "wake up" or unravel", yes.
 

La La Lou Lou

Crusader
I am not saying that the majority of ex'es or anons are arrogant, but it does come across as arrogant when they condescendingly belittle a scientologist for "not having waken up just yet", etc. However true it may be, arrogant it is.

The rest of your comment: Yep.

Oh how ironic, I'm going to enjoy saying this Isene, ''who do you mean by they?'' I never thought I'd ever ask that question again.
You say yourself that everyone who is an ex isn't arrogant, so who is? And what is it about what they say that comes across to you as arrogant?
 

Isene

Patron with Honors
:) Let me see if I understand this:

A person is mildly neurotic, and become a Scientologist, and becomes intensely - Scientologically - neurotic, then does OT 8 and becomes only mildly neurotic again.

Some are disappointed.

But those who had low expectations are not disappointed.

Question: Are you sure that not being disappointed is not a continuation of the mind fuck?

Sounds as though the person should be disappointed.

As for the people who say things like, "He'll eventually turn around," "He's just going through a phase," etc., the Scientologist should be grateful for such people - people who express concern about someone they see as giving over his/her mind to a cult.

I think one can only be disappointed if one has expectations for something.
 

Isene

Patron with Honors
Oh how ironic, I'm going to enjoy saying this Isene, ''who do you mean by they?'' I never thought I'd ever ask that question again.
You say yourself that everyone who is an ex isn't arrogant, so who is? And what is it about what they say that comes across to you as arrogant?

When a person (most usually an ex or an anon) says to a scientologist something like "You are still mindfucked, give it a few yeras, and you will unravel", it does come across as arrogant. And it will, as Axiom says drive the person into a defensive position. It does not help him unravel.
 

Gadfly

Crusader
It does come across as arrogant when you tell a person that you know that a person will "wake up" or unravel", yes.

Am I arrogant for saying that I am quite sure that the sun will rise tomorrow? :confused2:

Being largely accurate in ones observations and predictions is not arrogance, though it will often be seen to be such by any person whose behaviors are being accurately predicted. :omg:
 

Gadfly

Crusader
When a person (most usually an ex or an anon) says to a scientologist something like "You are still mindfucked, give it a few yeras, and you will unravel", it does come across as arrogant. And it will, as Axiom says drive the person into a defensive position. It does not help him unravel.

If a person tosses out generalities, without any sort of supporting specifics, yes, it can appear as arrogant, and of course, will often NOT be helpful.

I remember getting involved with a fellow in Factnet many years ago. He was still a Scientologist at the time. I talked with him on the discussion board over a few months, being hard, being sincere, being honest, and most of all providing many examples for every general rule or statement that I made. He actually finally decided to LEAVE the Church of Scientology. He later became Anon Sparrow, and the rest is history.

If a person is honest and wants to truly examine facts and realities, I can spend the time with them. But, too often, and YOU were a perfect example of this - some continue in their rightness and arrogance for a long time after leaving the Church of Scientology. That is usually because they still are stuck in various aspects of the BELIEF SYSTEM, yet are not at all aware of how that is so. Of course, it doesn't help to tell them THAT, and it only helps to get them to look at it so they realize it for themselves. For the most part, the posting on this board (and other boards) is too brief and erratic to actual act as a system to help any person unravel. One needs to read and examine a great many different stories, views, explanations, critical analysis, and most of all, EXAMINE ONES SELF in terms of what one has agreed with, considered to be true, and adopted from within Hubbard's nutty paradigm of reality.

For example, if any person reads the essay linked at the bottom of my sig line, if he or she is sincere and honest, he or she cannot help buy dislodge a little further from the mindfuck. But many won't even bother reading it until they are sufficiently unraveled already (it is too severe for them).

Anyway, we each unravel in our own way. There is no right way or wrong way. And THIS set of experiences in Scientology, which was wholly unique for each of us, is just a VERY SMALL step along the path of full enlightenment (which may take a great many incarnations).
 

Lone Star

Crusader
It does come across as arrogant when you tell a person that you know that a person will "wake up" or unravel", yes.

Would you prefer it if "we" said, "Oh that person is a moron and an imbecile. He'll never wake up. What a loser!" ?

I myself would prefer the "arrogant" yet positive statement. I'd eventually appreciate it knowing the others knew I had the strength deep down to "wake up". Call it a power postulation, if you will. :yes:
 

La La Lou Lou

Crusader
When a person (most usually an ex or an anon) says to a scientologist something like "You are still mindfucked, give it a few yeras, and you will unravel", it does come across as arrogant. And it will, as Axiom says drive the person into a defensive position. It does not help him unravel.

I must admit it wouldn't be the thing I'd say to anyone. Though I do agree that it does take a while for a mind to straighten out after being in the SO particularly, it can take a fair amount of time. I don't think that's arrogant, it's a statement of fact that I personally was not thinking clearly for a good few years after leaving, not from arrogance but much as you said (paraphrasing, probably badly) continuous self examination, self hatred and self chastisement. I was very much mind fucked when I left, counselling and discussing feelings and actions here have helped me considerably.

I also agree with you that putting a scientologist on the defensive is a sure way to fail to help them to escape.
 

Gadfly

Crusader
I think one can only be disappointed if one has expectations for something.

The key point here is how valid or realistic are the expectations? :yes:

I can hope and pray and expect to find Natalie Portman in my bed when I wake up tomorrow, but really, should I be that disappointed when she isn't there? :duh:

Many of the expectations of Scientology were just STUPID! You should be disappointed in yourself for accepting and adopting such absurd expectations in the first place. THAT is the area to work on, and analyze with sincere introspection and self-questioning. What was it about yourself that allowed you to be susceptible to such a scam? I think there is much room for personal growth along THAT avenue of attack.

I expanded quite a bit when I realized how much of my original attraction to Scientology involved EGO issues.

It is like the innocent sucker who gets conned by the card shark on 6th Avenue in NYC with 3-Card Monty. You can ONLY be suckered if you are GREEDY. There is an analogy here about Scientology. One could have ONLY been suckered if there was a pre-exsiting flaw in oneself, setting you up for the con. That flaw, issue or weakness may differ for each of us. I found the flaws in myself that set me up. It wasn't easy facing them in myself.
 

TG1

Angelic Poster
Yes, I can see how being told (or even hinted at) that your current position is unworkable and dangerous to you and your loved ones and that you should seriously rethink your position could be challenging, even threatening.

However, that's the hard job that most parents, teachers, bosses, spouses and counselors of all stripes have to take on during much of their lives. You can't just coddle people forever, saying, "Gee, as you continue to feel better about yourself, you might consider one day stopping drinking, using crack, and eating 5,000 calories a day."

I have an idea (I can't prove it) that many lurkers at ESMB are serious Kool-Aid drinkers who know in their hearts they need to put down the Kool-Aid and deal with their Scientology addiction. They know they can't do it right now. But they keep coming back, reading, getting aggravated with all the stuff they're reading, not liking -- but realizing that with each visit they are edging a little closer to making The Big Decision to Change Their Lives.

ESMB is a community that also acts for some as group therapy. ESMB is also created mostly by people who are working through their own shit without a lot of filters. It's not guided one-on-one therapy by therapists. All we have are pages and stories and humor and outrage and more patience than, frankly, I would have expected from a community like this.

I'm also reminded that every once in a while Buddhist masters pull out a two-by-four from under their yoga mats and hit their students over the head and scream: "HEY, STOOPID, WAKE UP!"

TG1
 
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I am not saying that the majority of ex'es or anons are arrogant, but it does come across as arrogant when they condescendingly belittle a scientologist for "not having waken up just yet", etc. However true it may be, arrogant it is.

The rest of your comment: Yep.

I think I agree with you on that. You say in your last sentence "However true it may be....", which it is in many cases, but I don't go along with the practice of talking about the progression of someone's 'waking up' or 'decompressing' with too much authority because it looks too controlling to me.

I do of course notice when people who have left COS change their perspective, change their opinions, and do actually sometimes extricate themselves from cult-think. But instead of saying to a person "You need to decompress" or "You still have some way to go on your waking up", I would rather just respond to details of the point they are talking about. And actually I would rather say to someone, "You are still fucked in the head because you think like a scientologist", than, "You still have a ways to go on your waking up" because the latter makes it sound like I am somehow overseeing their thoughts, opinions etc and I have some ownership over their assumed re-education program. The former, while being a bit blunt and crude seems to express disagreement or maybe disapproval in a take-it-or-leave-it-way without making it sound like I am some sort of overseer.

Scientology does induce arrogance too, so arrogance against arrogance might only cause resistance, but who knows?
 

Gadfly

Crusader
There is a really great idea within Hegel's philosophy.

All advancement or growth (evolution) comes out of conflict, tension and pain. The history of Mankind can easily be studied with THAT idea in mind.

Hegel's Dialectic Simplified

Hegelian dialectic, usually presented in a threefold manner, was stated by Heinrich Moritz Chalybäus as comprising three dialectical stages of development:

a thesis, giving rise to its reaction,

an antithesis, which contradicts or negates the thesis, and the tension between the two being resolved by means of

synthesis. Although this model is often named after Hegel, he himself never used that specific formulation. Hegel ascribed that terminology to Kant.

THAT is what goes on with any person who has left the Church of Scientology. They still carry around the "thesis" - the Scientology belief system, the Scientology paradigm, the indoctrination of a great many ideas.

ESMB provides the ANTITHESIS! It is a constant balls-to-the-walls attack and contradiction of the "thesis" held by the overly-indoctrinated Scientology follower.

Out of that battle, out of that struggle, and out of that dynamic interaction eventually arises a SYNTHESIS, which embraces and moves beyond BOTH the "for" and the "against".

Without the antithesis being rammed down your throat, most would never budge out of their comfortable and crazy Hubbard worldview of things.
 
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