Scientology and mindfuck

When a person (most usually an ex or an anon) says to a scientologist something like "You are still mindfucked, give it a few yeras, and you will unravel", it does come across as arrogant. And it will, as Axiom says drive the person into a defensive position. It does not help him unravel.

I don't know if this will seem to contradict my last post, or fully align with it,
but there is the point that being too polite could mean that a person never feels any challenge to their comfort zone.

Some of the changes that people go through in the ex sci-cult environment (even on the internet), come about because of the pressure applied by the uncomfortable opinions of others IMO. The cognitive dissonance effect forces some re-evaluation that would not otherwise happen.
 

La La Lou Lou

Crusader
I'm also reminded that every once in a while Buddhist masters pull out a two-by-four from under their yoga mats and hit their students over the head and scream: "HEY, STOOPID, WAKE UP!"

TG1

I do know one guy who was really damaged by the brutality of his master's approach. If you really care about someone you can hit them between the eyes with a statement that will shake them into higher awareness, I don't think it's the best way, but it can be done. Calling someone 'stupid' certainly is not the way I would talk to anyone, to help them be more wise, and hitting with sticks seems like admitting defeat.

You can't insult your way into someone's confidence. You can't bash a person into listening to you. You do have to be more subtle than that.

So Isene, who is the they that do this bad thing?
 

La La Lou Lou

Crusader
I don't know if this will seem to contradict my last post, or fully align with it,
but there is the point that being too polite could mean that a person never feels any challenge to their comfort zone.

Some of the changes that people go through in the ex sci-cult environment (even on the internet), come about because of the pressure applied by the uncomfortable opinions of others IMO. The cognitive dissonance effect forces some re-evaluation that would not otherwise happen.

I think you have a point, being honest and true to yourself is a good start and saying how you feel is fine, but not using an atom bomb to crack a nut. Too polite can be slimy and just too icky.
 

Gadfly

Crusader
The opposing view MUST be expressed, sometimes forcefully, or one will often NEVER be jogged out of their smug certainty.

People usually leave Scientology in a VERY "tight" and "fixed" state of mind. That is all the worse for those who followed it all the way to the "top". It often takes a great deal of getting smacked around to wake up from that. People caught in really rigid points of view (as are most newly left ex-Scientologists) NEED the challenge of opposing views to get them to rethink all they have accepted and agreed with.

Hubbard did his job well to create people with very SOLID fixed ideas (based on Hubbard's paradigm).

It takes some serious work to tear down the foundation of THAT.
 

HelluvaHoax!

Platinum Meritorious Sponsor with bells on
It does come across as arrogant when you tell a person that you know that a person will "wake up" or unravel", yes.



Part of the Scientology "mindfuck" is being concerned about and attacking people who are speaking openly about waking up from Scientology--rather than listening what what they are saying. Admittedly, your labeling people "arrogant" is a mild form of Hubbard's "never defend, always attack" but it is an "attack" nevertheless.

How is it "arrogant" to tell someone they are stuck in a cult and encourage them to wake up? How is it "arrogant" to tell them they have partially woken up and need to keep going? Is there some kind of tech violation here where the duped cult member is not supposed to be "fed the cog" so that they can magically figure it out on their own? LOL

Hey, Geir, why are you worried about people who correctly said that you (and everyone else for that matter) are going through a "stage" in figuring out the hoax called Scientology?

Isn't it "arrogant" of you to think that you always know more about the subject called "Geir Isene" than everyone else in the world? LOL. Loosen up there, buddy, sometimes people jeering and laughing from the sidelines are actually your friends--just like the "SPs" that protest outside of orgs are later discovered (by the Scientologists) to be their best friends -- after they later escape.

A final comment. Hey, Geir, none of us are that brilliant or we would not have gotten sucked into a ridiculous hoax in the first place. What's that? You are still asserting that you would gladly re-do the OT levels at twice the cost because there is so much truth and spiritual case gain? Isn't THAT kind of arrogant that you keep asserting that you have figured Scientology out when your own posts keep revealing (over time) that you are evolving and moving further and further away from Hubbard's "bridge"?
 

Terril park

Sponsor
Part of the Scientology "mindfuck" is being concerned about and attacking people who are speaking openly about waking up from Scientology--rather than listening what what they are saying. Admittedly, your labeling people "arrogant" is a mild form of Hubbard's "never defend, always attack" but it is an "attack" nevertheless.

How is it "arrogant" to tell someone they are stuck in a cult and encourage them to wake up? How is it "arrogant" to tell them they have partially woken up and need to keep going? Is there some kind of tech violation here where the duped cult member is not supposed to be "fed the cog" so that they can magically figure it out on their own? LOL[snip]

What you say of those you describe as arrogant is---arrogant.

They may decide their own future.
 

afaceinthecrowd

Gold Meritorious Patron
Part of the Scientology "mindfuck" is being concerned about and attacking people who are speaking openly about waking up from Scientology--rather than listening what what they are saying. Admittedly, your labeling people "arrogant" is a mild form of Hubbard's "never defend, always attack" but it is an "attack" nevertheless.

How is it "arrogant" to tell someone they are stuck in a cult and encourage them to wake up? How is it "arrogant" to tell them they have partially woken up and need to keep going? Is there some kind of tech violation here where the duped cult member is not supposed to be "fed the cog" so that they can magically figure it out on their own? LOL

Hey, Geir, why are you worried about people who correctly said that you (and everyone else for that matter) are going through a "stage" in figuring out the hoax called Scientology?

Isn't it "arrogant" of you to think that you always know more about the subject called "Geir Isene" than everyone else in the world? LOL. Loosen up there, buddy, sometimes people jeering and laughing from the sidelines are actually your friends--just like the "SPs" that protest outside of orgs are later discovered (by the Scientologists) to be their best friends -- after they later escape.

A final comment. Hey, Geir, none of us are that brilliant or we would not have gotten sucked into a ridiculous hoax in the first place. What's that? You are still asserting that you would gladly re-do the OT levels at twice the cost because there is so much truth and spiritual case gain? Isn't THAT kind of arrogant that you keep asserting that you have figured Scientology out when your own posts keep revealing (over time) that you are evolving and moving further and further away from Hubbard's "bridge"?

Luvs Ya H Doble...Now matter what anyone else says about you. :biggrin::yes::coolwink:

Face:)
 

Mojo

Silver Meritorious Patron
Part of the Scientology "mindfuck" is being concerned about and attacking people who are speaking openly about waking up from Scientology--rather than listening what what they are saying. Admittedly, your labeling people "arrogant" is a mild form of Hubbard's "never defend, always attack" but it is an "attack" nevertheless.

How is it "arrogant" to tell someone they are stuck in a cult and encourage them to wake up? How is it "arrogant" to tell them they have partially woken up and need to keep going? Is there some kind of tech violation here where the duped cult member is not supposed to be "fed the cog" so that they can magically figure it out on their own? LOL

Hey, Geir, why are you worried about people who correctly said that you (and everyone else for that matter) are going through a "stage" in figuring out the hoax called Scientology?

Isn't it "arrogant" of you to think that you always know more about the subject called "Geir Isene" than everyone else in the world? LOL. Loosen up there, buddy, sometimes people jeering and laughing from the sidelines are actually your friends--just like the "SPs" that protest outside of orgs are later discovered (by the Scientologists) to be their best friends -- after they later escape.

A final comment. Hey, Geir, none of us are that brilliant or we would not have gotten sucked into a ridiculous hoax in the first place. What's that? You are still asserting that you would gladly re-do the OT levels at twice the cost because there is so much truth and spiritual case gain? Isn't THAT kind of arrogant that you keep asserting that you have figured Scientology out when your own posts keep revealing (over time) that you are evolving and moving further and further away from Hubbard's "bridge"?

Great Hoaxy. You just caved Geir in. You arrogant bastard. Haven't you ever taken 'sensitivity' training? Apparently not. He was almost out, he was so close...but nooooo, right now he's probably back at FLAG begging to do his A to E's, thanks to you. It's people like you that give people like Geir a bad name. Here he was, minding his own business, waking up, and you, you, put him back to sleep. Look, when you hurt the feelings of a Scientologist, you are factually destroying any hope this world has of fulfilling Rons dream. I hope you are happy now.

I live in Nevada. 50 to 1 odds say Geir will not be responding to this thread any longer. Thanks Hoax. Next time we here from Geir he will probably be OT X and helping Marty destroy milestone two.

mojo

ps. for the record, I admire Geir beyond all scientology measure. For He is a man that is a spiritual angel (psychological helper) to many a many a many man (male and female). And Geir, I hope and trust you can take my spiritual jabbing, not as joking and degrading, but merely as joking.

Life is funny that way.
 
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Lurker5

Gold Meritorious Patron
I have found most scnos incredibly arrogant, LOL. But I get what you mean. Just as scnos think they know all there is to know - and have all the answers, those exes and anons who think they know it all and have all the answers come off just as arrogant. A closed mind cannot see anything other than own viewpoint. There is no tolerance for differences in such a mind . . .

People need to respect and be tolerant of the beliefs of others. The problem comes up though when someone is a total believer in a harmful cult, like scno/co$. I feel we have to try to get the brainwashed to wake up . . .

Now scno outside co$ is probably not a cult (yet), but I think the totalitarianism of scno/co$ is built into the tech. Given time, it WILL recreate itself, and become what it has become in the co$. The co$ was bad and abusive right from the beginning - almost - certainly by the time people were being tossed off the boat, and kids were being held prisoner in the chain locker . . . . It just got worse from there.

The track record of co$/scno is horrendous. That is what I am basing my opinion of co$/scno on - its own tack record (of abuses and criminality). Sociopathic, like lrh and dm. I feel an obligation to try and get people out. I am just not very good at that, because I don't have the patience to slowly peel the eyelids back on the truth staring scnos in the face, but they cannot see, because they have been brainwashed. The exes are better at it, because they have been through it (and for those who don't know, I never considered myself a scno - I took a few courses, and figured it out, how evil it was, and got the hell out - terrified by what I had seen and experienced - and that was decades ago - the people had good intentions, but they were tricked, most evil by co$/scno tech). I knew then it would be a long hard battle.

Anything as secretive and elitist as scno, of course, will eventually lead to that end - of toltalitarianism - and horrid abuses of power. But that is just my opinion, and maybe that comes off as arrogant . . . ???? If so, sorry to offend. I am just so adamantly opposed to scno/co$ - because of the abuses - of power - and the enslavement, imprisonment and trafficking of peoples, and the disrespect inherent in the teachings, calling outsiders 'wogs' and raw meat. That is vile. And all that is inherent in the tech . . . IMHO. :biggrin:

But nobody likes a know-it-all arrogant ass . . . . :mirror: ????? :eyeroll: :nervous:
 

Arthur Dent

Silver Meritorious Patron
We're all arrogant about something, whether subtly or not so subtly. How to do our jobs, how to fix a car, or cook a certain dish, how to best treat a lawn, how to handle a dog, how to do this or that.
A lot of it is self-promotion and why people come and ask us about the things we say we're good at.
There are so many levels of arrogance or ego, if you will. They wax and wane with changes we go through.
We are built up by something, humbled by something else. It's a process. And not a very important one, imho.

People on this board, for the most part, get that. I think they do. Having been in the most acclaimed cult of arrogance does give one some
perspective on seeing it, using it, ignoring it, but mostly recognizing that it is a process of change. And, hopefully, having some humor about it. If you were in scn., being arrogant was a foregone conclusion. You had to utilize that somewhere in your scn. career as staff or public in order to survive! Fortunately, we shed that skin pretty much and pretty quickly once out. If we remain arrogant about others still in, well, this too shall pass.

"What I find in common among the majority of scientologists – in or out of the church – is a worrying introspection. A tendency to look inward, find faults with themselves, worry about being PTS, about committing overts, about having missed withholds, about being restimulated, about their postulates (not) coming true, about being effect (of SPs), about what might have caused that ulcer, etc. Much looking inward and toward the past." (from Geir)

I am so grateful I am no longer afflicted by the above... and in just a few short years! I was a mess when I arrived here. This board was my therapy along with some of it's members IRL. There was a time when wild horses couldn't have
pulled me away from the cult. The arrogance is instilled. It starts with KSW 1, which is practically "implanted" these days! A real mindfuck and illusion!
 
.
.
This, snipped from one of Veda's posts on this thread sticks in my mind.

".....Let me see if I understand this:

A person is mildly neurotic, and become a Scientologist, and becomes intensely - Scientologically - neurotic, then does OT 8 and becomes only mildly neurotic again.
..."
 

HelluvaHoax!

Platinum Meritorious Sponsor with bells on
What you say of those you describe as arrogant is---arrogant.

They may decide their own future.



Courtesy of the Church of Hoaxology's time machine:


JOHN MCMASTER
Doctor, I have this nagging feeling that
something about my meat body is not quite right.

DOCTOR
Mr. McMaster, I know you are the world's first Clear, but
you are a chronic alcoholic and will die of cirrhosis of the
liver if you don't stop drinking.

(suddenly someone bursts into the Doctor's
office and stages a breathless intervention)


TERRIL PARK
Wait! Stop! That is arrogant, doctor!

DOCTOR
Wutttt? Who are you? What do you want?

TERRIL PARK
My name is Terril. I am from the future. I am
here to say that you have no business or right
to make such arrogant statements to a Clear.

DOCTOR
But, my dear man, this Clear is going to
die. You don't give a damn about that?

TERRIL PARK
Read my philosophy, "Each man has the
inalienable right to decide their own future."

DOCTOR
Oh, okay, I see your point.
(turns to John McMaster)
John, you seem to be in great heath!
No worries, off you go then!





Lurker's Guide:

* L. Ron Hubbard declares John McMaster the "World's First Clear"
* Within a couple years, L. Ron Hubbard declares John McMaster an "SP".
* Within a few years, John McMaster is declared dead (in a flophouse) from alcoholism-induded cirrhosis.

 

HelluvaHoax!

Platinum Meritorious Sponsor with bells on
Great Hoaxy. You just caved Geir in. You arrogant bastard. Haven't you ever taken 'sensitivity' training? Apparently not. He was almost out, he was so close...but nooooo, right now he's probably back at FLAG begging to do his A to E's, thanks to you. It's people like you that give people like Geir a bad name. Here he was, minding his own business, waking up, and you, you, put him back to sleep. Look, when you hurt the feelings of a Scientologist, you are factually destroying any hope this world has of fulfilling Rons dream. I hope you are happy now.

I live in Nevada. 50 to 1 odds say Geir will not be responding to this thread any longer. Thanks Hoax. Next time we here from Geir he will probably be OT X and helping Marty destroy milestone two.

mojo


LOL.

Scientology: The only game in the universe where evil SPs invented alarm clocks to rouse people from their Dianetic reverie and wreck their FNs.
 

HelluvaHoax!

Platinum Meritorious Sponsor with bells on
When a person (most usually an ex or an anon) says to a scientologist something like "You are still mindfucked, give it a few yeras, and you will unravel", it does come across as arrogant. And it will, as Axiom says drive the person into a defensive position. It does not help him unravel.


Interesting theory.

Try Googling "Anonymous" and see if your theory worked or not.
 

afaceinthecrowd

Gold Meritorious Patron
I have found most scnos incredibly arrogant, LOL. But I get what you mean. Just as scnos think they know all there is to know - and have all the answers, those exes and anons who think they know it all and have all the answers come off just as arrogant. A closed mind cannot see anything other than own viewpoint. There is no tolerance for differences in such a mind . . .

People need to respect and be tolerant of the beliefs of others. The problem comes up though when someone is a total believer in a harmful cult, like scno/co$. I feel we have to try to get the brainwashed to wake up . . .

Now scno outside co$ is probably not a cult (yet), but I think the totalitarianism of scno/co$ is built into the tech. Given time, it WILL recreate itself, and become what it has become in the co$. The co$ was bad and abusive right from the beginning - almost - certainly by the time people were being tossed off the boat, and kids were being held prisoner in the chain locker . . . . It just got worse from there.

The track record of co$/scno is horrendous. That is what I am basing my opinion of co$/scno on - its own tack record (of abuses and criminality). Sociopathic, like lrh and dm. I feel an obligation to try and get people out. I am just not very good at that, because I don't have the patience to slowly peel the eyelids back on the truth staring scnos in the face, but they cannot see, because they have been brainwashed. The exes are better at it, because they have been through it (and for those who don't know, I never considered myself a scno - I took a few courses, and figured it out, how evil it was, and got the hell out - terrified by what I had seen and experienced - and that was decades ago - the people had good intentions, but they were tricked, most evil by co$/scno tech). I knew then it would be a long hard battle.

Anything as secretive and elitist as scno, of course, will eventually lead to that end - of toltalitarianism - and horrid abuses of power. But that is just my opinion, and maybe that comes off as arrogant . . . ???? If so, sorry to offend. I am just so adamantly opposed to scno/co$ - because of the abuses - of power - and the enslavement, imprisonment and trafficking of peoples, and the disrespect inherent in the teachings, calling outsiders 'wogs' and raw meat. That is vile. And all that is inherent in the tech . . . IMHO. :biggrin:

But nobody likes a know-it-all arrogant ass . . . . :mirror: ????? :eyeroll: :nervous:

:thumbsup::clap::yes:

I suppose, along with the abject cruelty, it was the personally observed arrogance of El Ron and Hisself's Constructs (SO, CMO, Green "Tech", Red "Tech", etc) and various "OT's" that led me to walk away. I loved my children too much to let them become Children of the Corn...even if it meant I "lost my eternity". :no:

Face:)
 

HelluvaHoax!

Platinum Meritorious Sponsor with bells on
:thumbsup::clap::yes:

I suppose, along with the abject cruelty, it was the personally observed arrogance of El Ron and Hisself's Constructs (SO, CMO, Green "Tech", Red "Tech", etc) and various "OT's" that led me to walk away. I loved my children too much to let them become Children of the Corn...even if it meant I "lost my eternity". :no:

Face:)


If it's of any consolation to you, I also lost my eternity.

As such, at a certain point, I got very curious and wondered what marvelous & majestic things I would be missing out on in the vastly endless future--so I took the liberty of going forward on the time track a billion years. Here is what I discovered. . .

The entirety of Earth has been designated as one unit of one department on Scientology's Intergalactic Org Board. It smells like smoke and a lot of people are running around everywhere with clip boards and yelling at each other.

It's a reg office!

Well, that's only 1B years ahead. I am sure it gets wayyyy better after that, so we are still screwed Face!

:giggle:
 

Gib

Crusader
“He will eventually turn around.” “He’s just going through a phase.” “He’s still a kool-aid drinker – give him a couple of more years and he will wake up.” Etc.

You may cringe at the arrogance of the ex-Scientologists and Anonymous when they condescendingly belittle you with statements like the above. Like they somehow “know” what you are all about. Like crack pot tarot card readers. Even when they themselves never even set a foot inside a Church of Scientology.

I used to cringe. Because that arrogance does nothing but create animosity. It serves only to prolong any recovery from the Scientology mindfuck.

But, they are more than half-right.

What I find in common among the majority of scientologists – in or out of the church – is a worrying introspection. A tendency to look inward, find faults with themselves, worry about being PTS, about committing overts, about having missed withholds, about being restimulated, about their postulates (not) coming true, about being effect (of SPs), about what might have caused that ulcer, etc. Much looking inward and toward the past. I used to do the same – but oddly enough it was OT 8 that got me out of that. Ironic it is. (Google the terms above if you need to)

Scientology is the opposite of the Fuck It ideology. It makes for over-serious people wrought with emergencies and nervous anxiety about not having control or “being cause”. In my experience, it tends to make people less productive.

More here (with relevant linking):

http://isene.me/2013/06/23/scientology-and-mindfuck/

Hi Geir,

The posting here is snipped from your blog entry or posting. I have questions about this part:

"When I recently assessed what could or even should have been a tailored and compacted Scientology route for me, it would have gone like this: TRs, OT 2, OT 5, OT 7, OT 8. Interestingly, these are among the least introspective levels in Scientology. Although I did get gains from looking into incidents in my past and querying my inner mind, the more outward looking processes did the most for me. And I believe they make for less of a mindfuck."
I find that interesting. I haven't done the OT levels, but have read them here on the internet. So, let's say you were not educated about implants, would those OT2, 5, 7, & 8 have worked? Let's say you were just a normal person off the streets and the COS said your route is TRs. OT2, OT5, OT7, OT8 - what would have happened? And assuming you did not read any LRH books or lectures.

I've only gone up the bridge to Grade 0, but I have read and listened to a lot of the lectures. Not the Class 8 stuff, but I have gone thru the red tech volumes. So I got educated into this subject called scientology.

While reading all this stuff, why of course I had lots of wins and cogs. I was raised a non-religious person. I had no belief system in my mind. I did not believe in God, but maybe true there is a God, I just didn't know. And that is the same viewpoint or belief I have, just don't know.

And I don't know about about other religions. I haven't studied Buddhism, vedic hymms, Christianity, Mormons, nothing really other than scientology. So my question regarding those religions, is do they believe in the space opera like hubbard with what his implants and Xenu et al?

I ask the above just because, you know hubbard was a science fiction writer b/4 he founded scientology and wrote dianetics. So I guess I'm asking, just from a datum of comparable magnitude viewpoint, do these other religions have space opera?

I'm just asking these questions of you. No other hidden agenda, no trying to get you to wake up or anything like that.

And if others know what I ask, feel free. I'm just doing some due dilgence.
 

Free to shine

Shiny & Free
“He will eventually turn around.” “He’s just going through a phase.” “He’s still a kool-aid drinker – give him a couple of more years and he will wake up.” Etc.

You may cringe at the arrogance of the ex-Scientologists and Anonymous when they condescendingly belittle you with statements like the above. Like they somehow “know” what you are all about. Like crack pot tarot card readers. Even when they themselves never even set a foot inside a Church of Scientology.

I used to cringe. Because that arrogance does nothing but create animosity. It serves only to prolong any recovery from the Scientology mindfuck.

But, they are more than half-right.

What I find in common among the majority of scientologists – in or out of the church – is a worrying introspection. A tendency to look inward, find faults with themselves, worry about being PTS, about committing overts, about having missed withholds, about being restimulated, about their postulates (not) coming true, about being effect (of SPs), about what might have caused that ulcer, etc. Much looking inward and toward the past. I used to do the same – but oddly enough it was OT 8 that got me out of that. Ironic it is. (Google the terms above if you need to)

Scientology is the opposite of the Fuck It ideology. It makes for over-serious people wrought with emergencies and nervous anxiety about not having control or “being cause”. In my experience, it tends to make people less productive.

More here (with relevant linking):

http://isene.me/2013/06/23/scientology-and-mindfuck/

Geir I read your whole blog post and as Axiom mentioned, I think your lack of expectation was a great asset in your scientology journey. However I would veture to say that it is a rare person indeed who went into it with that frame of mind.

You say you used to cringe at the arrogance of a concept of a long (and somewhat predictable) recovery from scientology and now you agree that it is half right. Do you see that change of mind itself is a part of the process?
 
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