Scientology and mindfuck

Isene

Patron with Honors
Hi Geir,

The posting here is snipped from your blog entry or posting. I have questions about this part:


I find that interesting. I haven't done the OT levels, but have read them here on the internet. So, let's say you were not educated about implants, would those OT2, 5, 7, & 8 have worked? Let's say you were just a normal person off the streets and the COS said your route is TRs. OT2, OT5, OT7, OT8 - what would have happened? And assuming you did not read any LRH books or lectures.

I've only gone up the bridge to Grade 0, but I have read and listened to a lot of the lectures. Not the Class 8 stuff, but I have gone thru the red tech volumes. So I got educated into this subject called scientology.

While reading all this stuff, why of course I had lots of wins and cogs. I was raised a non-religious person. I had no belief system in my mind. I did not believe in God, but maybe true there is a God, I just didn't know. And that is the same viewpoint or belief I have, just don't know.

And I don't know about about other religions. I haven't studied Buddhism, vedic hymms, Christianity, Mormons, nothing really other than scientology. So may question regarding those religions, is do they believe in the space opera like hubbard with what his implants and Xenu et al?

I ask the above just because, you know hubbard was a science fiction writer b/4 he founded scientology and wrote dianetics. So I guess I'm asking, just from a datum of comparable magnitude viewpoint, do these other religions have space opera?

I'm just asking these questions of you. No other hidden agenda, no trying to get you to wake up or anything like that.

And if others know what I ask, feel free. I'm just doing some due dilgence.

Good and honest question, Thanks.

TRs work out of the box. Drop the indoctrination and the pedantry in the bulletins. Then OT 2 without any of the theory would work just fine, methinks. Then OT 5 and 7 without the ideas of BTs and such, and then OT 8 would need a work-over for the level to do its juice without the theory. I covered this in parts on my blog in a post titled just "OT 8".
 

Gib

Crusader
Good and honest question, Thanks.

TRs work out of the box. Drop the indoctrination and the pedantry in the bulletins. Then OT 2 without any of the theory would work just fine, methinks. Then OT 5 and 7 without the ideas of BTs and such, and then OT 8 would need a work-over for the level to do its juice without the theory. I covered this in parts on my blog in a post titled just "OT 8".

ok thanks for your answer.
 

HelluvaHoax!

Platinum Meritorious Sponsor with bells on
KSW Koan-Du-Jour

0---snipped-


I'm just asking these questions of you. No other hidden agenda, no trying to get you to wake up or anything like that.

And if others know what I ask, feel free. I'm just doing some due dilgence.


Here is some due diligence about why most Scientologists have left Scientology, in the form of a KSW Koan:


If Scientology makes the able more able...
Why weren't Scientologists able to fix Scientology?
 
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Isene

Patron with Honors
Geir I read your whole blog post and as Axiom mentioned, I think your lack of expectation was a great asset in your scientology journey. However I would veture to say that it is a rare person indeed who went into it with that frame of mind.

You say you used to cringe at the arrogance of a concept of a long (and somewhat predictable) recovery from scientology and now you agree that it is half right. Do you see that change of mind itself is a part of the process?

"more than half right" :)

And to answer your question: I believe so.

Now; got to get some sleep. It's 4am here - although I am still on LA time. Crappy jet lag. While I am sound asleep, you may want to check out my report of our US tour:

http://isene.me/2013/06/25/report-from-the-us-tour/
 

Gib

Crusader
Re: KSW Koan-Du-Jour

Here is some due diligence about why the most Scientologists have left Scientology, in the form of a KSW Koan:


If Scientology makes the able more able...
Why weren't Scientologists able to fix Scientology?

no arguments there HH. That's the biggest joke of all. Just like hubbard says throughtout the early the 1950's scientology lectures I've got it tapped now, clear, we got it.

How many times did he say it.

Epicenters and self determinism? LOL

Do you know at one time your jaw was a epicenter. :hysterical:

Charles darwin would roll over in his grave. :laugh:
 

HelluvaHoax!

Platinum Meritorious Sponsor with bells on
Re: KSW Koan-Du-Jour

no arguments there HH. That's the biggest joke of all. Just like hubbard says throughtout the early the 1950's scientology lectures I've got it tapped now, clear, we got it.

How many times did he say it.


Ron never said that. Transcriptionist error. All those times, what he actually said was:

I've got it tapped now.
I've gotten tapped out.

That's how it worked. Whenever Dr. Hubbard was "tapped out" he would sit down and just make up some startling, imaginary new "scientific breakthrough" to sell.
 

Veda

Sponsor
-snip-

I find that interesting. I haven't done the OT levels, but have read them here on the internet. So, let's say you were not educated about implants, would those OT2... [sniped] have worked?

-snip-

:) Gib, OT 2 is implants. Page after page of implants.

Here's a sampling of a typical implant description from OT 2:



They are implant incidents...

Trillion, 20,095.

Hot Cold.

This is a pole with a split in it. The back split is hot, the front is cold. Two temperatures. Duration is 1 [and] 1/8th seconds...

Dance Mob.

Trillions, 18,992.

This duration is 7/8 of a second. There is a pole that pulls one in. One is caught in the pole.



And a little more:

230 trillions.

This seeks to install...

Implanter X... Target X,
etc. [Shows diagram of implant], etc.


A typical reaction to running these materials is amazement at having contacted previously inaccessible incidents from ages ago, and delight at having expected (and hoped for) e-meter responses.

Those without the expected e-meter responses usually respond with dread and upset at their failure.

Their "cases" must be "reviewed" - which can be time consuming and expensive - and actions taken to properly "set" them "up" for the "level."

It's an impressive P.T. Barnumesque ride.

OT3Interference.jpg


And when the ride is over, the person is pretty much the same as he was before, but with an overlay of Hubbardian significance that sees the world as a place of dramatizing implants and Body Thetan infestation.


If the implants, the "evaluation," and the "science fiction," and the hypo-suggestive "mind fuck," were removed from levels such as OT 2, then OT 2 wouldn't be OT 2 any more.

Perhaps it could be done with various "levels" - and this has been discussed before - but it would be a different subject, and no longer Scientology.
 

La La Lou Lou

Crusader
:) Gib, OT 2 is implants. Page after page of implants.

Here's a sampling of a typical implant description from OT 2:



They are implant incidents...

Trillion, 20,095.

Hot Cold.

This is a pole with a split in it. The back split is hot, the front is cold. Two temperatures. Duration is 1 [and] 1/8th seconds...

Dance Mob.

Trillions, 18,992.

This duration is 7/8 of a second. There is a pole that pulls one in. One is caught in the pole.



And a little more:

230 trillions.

This seeks to install...

Implanter X... Target X,
etc. [Shows diagram of implant], etc.


A typical reaction to running these materials is amazement at having contacted previously inaccessible incidents from ages ago, and delight at having expected (and hoped for) e-meter responses.

Those without the expected e-meter responses usually respond with dread and upset at their failure.

Their "cases" must be "reviewed" - which can be time consuming and expensive - and actions taken to properly "set" them "up" for the "level."

It's an impressive P.T. Barnumesque ride.

OT3Interference.jpg


And when the ride is over, the person is pretty much the same as he was before, but with an overlay of Hubbardian significance that sees the world as a place of dramatizing implants and Body Thetan infestation.


If the implants, the "evaluation," and the "science fiction," and the hypo-suggestive "mind fuck" were removed from levels such as OI 2, then OT 2 wouldn't be OT any more.

Perhaps it could be done, but it would be a different subject.


Didn't hubbard say that pain was heat cold and electrical?
 

Pooks

MERCHANT OF CHAOS
I am not saying that the majority of ex'es or anons are arrogant, but it does come across as arrogant when they condescendingly belittle a scientologist for "not having waken up just yet", etc. However true it may be, arrogant it is.

The rest of your comment: Yep.


I can see how you could come the conclusion that it's arrogant, but it's certainly not my intention to be arrogant when I say-- he's "not waken up yet" or something that implies he's still unraveling the Scn onion.

I say it with empathy and understanding of his or her situation. The Scientology blinders and filters are woven deep and digging out can be a long road.

Scientologists are very easy to offend. They are so self important-- so OT-- so arrogant in their "knowingness" that it's almost impossible not to offend them.

When a Scientologists can start laughing at themselves, start laughing at Ron and start laughing at what a dumbass they've been, then you know they are on the road to recovery.

If they get offended and think I'm arrogant because I'm on the other side of what they are going through, then --- shrugs--- so be it. It's all part of the mindfuck.
 
When a person (most usually an ex or an anon) says to a scientologist something like "You are still mindfucked, give it a few yeras, and you will unravel", it does come across as arrogant. And it will, as Axiom says drive the person into a defensive position. It does not help him unravel.
You're probably right, but remember it's a two way street and some of us have to unravel too. The journey of being an ex is also long. I know I still have a lot learn, such as how to keep from laughing at middle aged men running around in fake navy costumes and pretending to have super powers, but I'm sure if I work hard enough at it I will some day master it, and achieve a state of total non-arrogant-exness
 

WildKat

Gold Meritorious Patron
Good thread, thanks everyone!

Arrogance is as arrogance does. From what I have seen, the people who had the most arrogance in the cult are the same exact people who exhibit the most arrogance once they become an Ex. The Scientologist looks at the "Wog" and thinks, "poor Wog, they don't know anything about life."

The Ex looks at the Scientologist and thinks "poor deluded Scientologist, one day they will wake up and really know what it's all about."

And somewhere, some Entity (who really DOES know everything about everything) is looking at us all and smiling.
 

Infinite

Troublesome Internet Fringe Dweller
. . . It does come across as arrogant when you tell a person that you know that a person will "wake up" or unravel", yes.

Hmmm . . .

arrogant

adj.

1. Having or displaying a sense of overbearing self-worth or self-importance.

2. Marked by or arising from a feeling or assumption of one's superiority toward others.

honest

adj.

1. Marked by or displaying integrity; upright

2. Not deceptive or fraudulent; genuine

3. Equitable; fair

4.
a. Characterized by truth; not false: honest reporting.
b. Sincere; frank: an honest critique.

atheists.png
 
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I told you I was trouble

Suspended animation
“He will eventually turn around.” “He’s just going through a phase.” “He’s still a kool-aid drinker – give him a couple of more years and he will wake up.” Etc.

You may cringe at the arrogance of the ex-Scientologists and Anonymous when they condescendingly belittle you with statements like the above. Like they somehow “know” what you are all about. Like crack pot tarot card readers. Even when they themselves never even set a foot inside a Church of Scientology.

I used to cringe. Because that arrogance does nothing but create animosity. It serves only to prolong any recovery from the Scientology mindfuck.

But, they are more than half-right.

What I find in common among the majority of scientologists – in or out of the church – is a worrying introspection. A tendency to look inward, find faults with themselves, worry about being PTS, about committing overts, about having missed withholds, about being restimulated, about their postulates (not) coming true, about being effect (of SPs), about what might have caused that ulcer, etc. Much looking inward and toward the past. I used to do the same – but oddly enough it was OT 8 that got me out of that. Ironic it is. (Google the terms above if you need to)

Scientology is the opposite of the Fuck It ideology. It makes for over-serious people wrought with emergencies and nervous anxiety about not having control or “being cause”. In my experience, it tends to make people less productive.

More here (with relevant linking):

http://isene.me/2013/06/23/scientology-and-mindfuck/



ESMB is not here for the purpose of 'gently clearing the planet of sensitive scientologists ... without invalidating them' and I certainly didn't join ESMB to encourage people out of the cult though I do love seeing them getting out and will certainly assist if asked to and if I can.

I didn't leave one cult to try and create another.

About the only thing I will do (with enormous arrogance and as much invalidation as I can muster) is oppose anyone who is here for the purpose of trying to keep people in the scientology mindset, not because I believe it will change that persons behaviour (it won't) but because (hopefully) people already on the way out will realise that we don't play here (in the real world) by the cofs fake rules of 'communication' and will be encouraged to fully think for themselves again, possibly while disagreeing and objecting with the comments made.

Reaching understanding and being in 'ARC' isn't required and we all seem to cope quite well (lol) without it.

I absolutely love it when people start to 'decultify' but they have to do it themselves to really own it IMO and if they are here they have started that process ... what they don't need is 'Indies' getting in the way as they are working things out by trying to keep them in the mode and caught up in the introversion of scientology.



 

ESMB is not here for the purpose of 'gently clearing the planet of sensitive scientologists ... without invalidating them' and I certainly didn't join ESMB to encourage people out of the cult though I do love seeing them getting out and will certainly assist if asked to and if I can.

I didn't leave one cult to try and create another.

About the only thing I will do (with enormous arrogance and as much invalidation as I can muster) is oppose anyone who is here for the purpose of trying to keep people in the scientology mindset, not because I believe it will change that persons behaviour (it won't) but because (hopefully) people already on the way out will realise that we don't play here (in the real world) by the cofs fake rules of 'communication' and will be encouraged to fully think for themselves again, possibly while disagreeing and objecting with the comments made.

Reaching understanding and being in 'ARC' isn't required and we all seem to cope quite well (lol) without it.

I absolutely love it when people start to 'decultify' but they have to do it themselves to really own it IMO and if they are here they have started that process ... what they don't need is 'Indies' getting in the way as they are working things out by trying to keep them in the mode and caught up in the introversion of scientology.




i know you and others would suggest some of my writing promotes "the scientology mindset" but it's not so. it is the "mindset" approach and stance that blinds and stifles and constricts whether it's scientology or christianity or patriotism or whatever. always everywhere there is the challenge of differentiating between the counterfeit and the real; of "separating the wheat from the chaff" as it is so eloquently phrased in scripture

but...

there is real; there is wheat...
 

HelluvaHoax!

Platinum Meritorious Sponsor with bells on

ESMB is not here for the purpose of 'gently clearing the planet of sensitive scientologists ... without invalidating them' and I certainly didn't join ESMB to encourage people out of the cult though I do love seeing them getting out and will certainly assist if asked to and if I can.

I didn't leave one cult to try and create another.

About the only thing I will do (with enormous arrogance and as much invalidation as I can muster) is oppose anyone who is here for the purpose of trying to keep people in the scientology mindset, not because I believe it will change that persons behaviour (it won't) but because (hopefully) people already on the way out will realise that we don't play here (in the real world) by the cofs fake rules of 'communication' and will be encouraged to fully think for themselves again, possibly while disagreeing and objecting with the comments made.

Reaching understanding and being in 'ARC' isn't required and we all seem to cope quite well (lol) without it.

I absolutely love it when people start to 'decultify' but they have to do it themselves to really own it IMO and if they are here they have started that process ... what they don't need is 'Indies' getting in the way as they are working things out by trying to keep them in the mode and caught up in the introversion of scientology.




"ESMB is not here for the purpose of 'gently clearing the planet of sensitive scientologists ... without invalidating them."

HellYeah! Especially when "invalidating" means disagreeing with them; or, far worse, not "granting them beingness" as a Clear or OT and forcing the insufferable indignity upon them of asking questions about their supposed advanced spiritual state.

Can I join your cult?

I will take any post that's available. BTW, I am not a back-flasher and am very good at standardly washing windows.

ML,

hh

ps: I also bring my own newspaper.
 
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I told you I was trouble

Suspended animation

Gib

Crusader
"ESMB is not here for the purpose of 'gently clearing the planet of sensitive scientologists ... without invalidating them."

HellYeah! Especially when "invalidating" means disagreeing with them; or, far worse, not "granting them beingness" as a Clear or OT and forcing the insufferable indignity upon them of asking questions about their supposed advanced spiritual state.

.

:yes:

thank you

That's a hard one to communicate.
 
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