Scientology and the Left Hand Path

[Voltaire's Child]

It was just a question fluffy, one to continue an intelligent exchange of information based upon facts.

So since that is not your style, never mind fluff.

Well, given that almost every post you write to me includes an insult, like don't I ever read anything, do I like black magick, and "an intelligent exchange of information based upon the facts...is not your style" it should come as no surprise to you when we have a dearth of exchanged ideas.

Maybe you should try talking to me instead of at me.

 

[Power Change]

Well, given that almost every post you write to me includes an insult

show me one fluff...quote it and tell me why it is an insult.

 

[Voltaire's Child]

I already did. I quoted you.

Let me know when you want to discuss something about Scientology. Leave out the personalizations and I'll post a reply.

 

[Power Change]

It was just a question fluffy, one to continue an intelligent exchange of information based upon facts.

So since that is not your style, never mind fluff.

Well, given that almost every post you write to me includes an insult, like don't I ever read anything, do I like black magick, and "an intelligent exchange of information based upon the facts...is not your style" it should come as no surprise to you when we have a dearth of exchanged ideas.

Maybe you should try talking to me instead of at me.

I already did. I quoted you.

Let me know when you want to discuss something about Scientology. Leave out the personalizations and I'll post a reply.

so where is the insult ???? saying 'thats not your style' when asking for facts that you refuse to provide is a fact in itself.

I do not see that you provide a single substantiated fact and your defense is 'why should I?' Okey dokey--that's mature.

As I said, that is not your style. It is true. And I can see that I am not the only one who notices this given their responses to your posts many times.

 

[Voltaire's Child]

Thank you for leaving the personalizations out of your posts and asking me about Scientology.

It is really refreshing to talk to someone about issues, like, say, the RPF, or what does one think of Xenu or why did Hubbard lie about his war record or why do they do that drill where ashtrays are yelled at.

Oh wait...it didn't happen. Well, I remain hopeful.

If you're up for discussing Scn or Dn or Hubbard or the Freezone or CofS, then so'm I.

 

[Power Change]

Perhaps you should study history a little more with regards to western occultism and belief systems. That is fine if you read the facts then decide you dont agree with it because of opposing facts. But to say flippantly that you dont believe 'in any such thing' makes it apparent that you dont have a clue what it is as if it is like believing in harry potters powers.

As in previous posts, you do choose to disregard the crowley connection to Hubbard. Hubbards own son was witness to and participated in contemptuous acts in this regard and you still dont 'believe it'.

Do you ever operate on facts, affidavits, research, proof? If so, name 2 FACTS, references that blow the crowley connection to hubbard apart. Heck, name any fact that substantiates any result in scientology. Opinion and your observation are not proof or facts.

"The term Left-Hand Path originates from Hindu Tantra. It was first used in Western occultism to describe religious practices viewed as immoral (such as "sex magic") by Helena Blavatsky (1831 - 1891)."
BTW there is a lot of info on the subject. It is intimately woven into all of scientology like it or not fluff- CONFRONT!

Thank you for leaving the personalizations out of your posts and asking me about Scientology.

It is really refreshing to talk to someone about issues, like, say, the RPF, or what does one think of Xenu or why did Hubbard lie about his war record or why do they do that drill where ashtrays are yelled at.

Oh wait...it didn't happen. Well, I remain hopeful.

If you're up for discussing Scn or Dn or Hubbard or the Freezone or CofS, then so'm I.

My post is about scientology, the actual subject matter of the thread..,

Your response above lacks any sense because my post is in fact discussing scn.

 

[Voltaire's Child]

What concepts or practices, drills, policies, squirrel groups or individuals in CofS or the Freezone would you like to discuss with me? And what, about them, would you like to discuss? Is there a question or statement about SCIENTOLOGY OR DIANETICS that you'd like to put on the table here? If so, what is it?

 

[Power Change]

What concepts or practices, drills, policies, squirrel groups or individuals in CofS or the Freezone would you like to discuss with me? And what, about them, would you like to discuss? Is there a question or statement about SCIENTOLOGY OR DIANETICS that you'd like to put on the table here? If so, what is it?

Discussion with you fluffy, is not possible. You do not discuss. You throw out generalizations of opinions to answer a discussion based on facts and real data, then when asked to provide some factual info, you start saying you are insulted. In 10 min of looking at posts tonight, you have done the same thing on 3 threads with different members here. Yes there is a big pattern.When challenged on your generaliztions, you tell the person they are insulting you.

So, now that I completely understand that this is the way you respond to challenges or questions about references to your statements, no sense arguing about it. When I am interested in a real discussion with non generalizers who will attempt to back up what they say, I will not knock on your door.

This does not mean I will not comment to your generalizations as this is a discussion board.


The left hand path thread is very interesting and there is a lot to learn from some of these folks here...so if you'll excuse me....moving on.

 

[Power Change]

I agree, in principle, but in application, it's a feeder system into the OT Levels, and very often quickied at the first sign that the person is feeling okay about the "processes", which is a far cry from real "VGIs".

I do think LRH intended to increase people's ability to reach and withdraw, although I think he had a disguised intention to control them and dominate them towards his purposes.

GoM-
I agree about the first comment about the feeder system in place for the OT levels however, ... The funny thing is that I and many others I spoke to started having their lower bridge elongated to the point of major frustration-people blowing-. You know, arbitrary additions and sec checks and courses and repairs and special rd's--all added to the lower bridge over and over---

So why would they do this if they are trying to feed the OT levels. they were losing people on the lower bridge by putting barriers and obstacles there.

The other question is--how does reach and withdraw increase ability...? What is the premise? is there an earlier premise to this technique...? pre scn?

 

[Power Change]

I found this on Wiki-nice simple explanation. I understand there is much more on this.

Left-Hand Path belief systems generally share the following properties:

1. The conviction that individuals can become akin to gods, usually through spiritual insight. sounds like scientology

2. The conviction that there is no such thing as a selfless act. Fulfilling one's desire is acknowledged to be selfish, at the least reaping an individual sense of satisfaction. Altruism is considered self-deception, created and fostered by conventional religions. sounds like scientology

3. An exoteric interpretation of concepts like karma, divine retribution, or the Threefold Law, resulting in flexible rather than rigid codes of morality.
The conviction that the individual is preeminent, and that all decisions should be made with the goal of cultivating the self (though not necessarily the ego). sounds like black magic sexual perversion described in affidavit and data published about hubbard and crowley and their ceremonies with sexual acts

4. The conviction that each individual is responsible for his or her own happiness, and that no external force will provide salvation or reward actions which do not advance one's own happiness in this life. sounds like scientology, and atheism

5. The conviction that the forces of the universe can be harnessed to one's personal will by magical means, and that power gained and wielded in such a manner is an aid to enlightenment, to self-satisfaction, and to self-deification. sounds like scientology

6. A Platonic view of deities as "first-forms." If deity is perceived as having consciousness, then all relationships with the deity are in the form of a partnership, or an alliance which does not require subservience. Some practitioners of Left-Hand Path belief systems summarize this concept with the statement that "prideful deities like prideful partners." ???

 

[Voltaire's Child]

Discussion with you fluffy, is not possible. You do not discuss. You throw out generalizations of opinions to answer a discussion based on facts and real data, then when asked to provide some factual info, you start saying you are insulted. In 10 min of looking at posts tonight, you have done the same thing on 3 threads with different members here. Yes there is a big pattern.When challenged on your generaliztions, you tell the person they are insulting you.

So, now that I completely understand that this is the way you respond to challenges or questions about references to your statements, no sense arguing about it. When I am interested in a real discussion with non generalizers who will attempt to back up what they say, I will not knock on your door.

This does not mean I will not comment to your generalizations as this is a discussion board.


The left hand path thread is very interesting and there is a lot to learn from some of these folks here...so if you'll excuse me....moving on.

I've already answered what you said about occultism and the left hand path. Since I did that, though, you turned the discussion to me. Of course I'm not going to go along with that. As you know, I make it very difficult for anyone who attempts such. I don't allow it. I gave specific answers to you - direct references to things you wrote and, in fact, directly quoted you. So they're not generalizations. I did not use the term "insult".

I don't care if you knock on my door or not. If you want to discuss Scn, fine. If you discuss personalities, you won't like the reply.

 

[Power Change]

I've already answered what you said about occultism and the left hand path.

no you did not give me the reference I asked for about your opinion that crowley did not like hubbard

Since I did that, though, you turned the discussion to me. Of course I'm not going to go along with that. As you know, I make it very difficult for anyone who attempts such. I don't allow it.

I dont allow it either. Acting like a child who has just dug their heels in the sand in defiance is not discussion.

I gave specific answers to you - direct references to things you wrote and, in fact, directly quoted you. So they're not generalizations.

no you did not

I did not use the term "insult".

I don't care if you knock on my door or not. If you want to discuss Scn, fine. If you discuss personalities, you won't like the reply.

I could not care less fluffy, your replies scolding people are not taken seriously, they merely enhance the known

 

[Voltaire's Child]

I did directly quote you and I gave you specific examples. I'm not sure what the quote is. Crowley is on record of disdaining Hubbard. He thought Hubbard was a tool and a poser.

"Apparently Parsons or Hubbard or somebody is producing a Moonchild. I get fairly frantic when I contemplate the idiocy of these louts."
- Aleister Crowley, in a letter to the head of the OTO in the U.S.

is the one with which I'm familar.

Thanks for proving my point by once again writing about me.

 

[Power Change]

 

[Voltaire's Child]

So the Crowley quote wasn't what you asked for?

 

[gomorrhan]

GoM-
I agree about the first comment about the feeder system in place for the OT levels however, ... The funny thing is that I and many others I spoke to started having their lower bridge elongated to the point of major frustration-people blowing-. You know, arbitrary additions and sec checks and courses and repairs and special rd's--all added to the lower bridge over and over---

So why would they do this if they are trying to feed the OT levels. they were losing people on the lower bridge by putting barriers and obstacles there.

The other question is--how does reach and withdraw increase ability...? What is the premise? is there an earlier premise to this technique...? pre scn?

Well, with the price of regular intensives so high, and with the sec-checks thrown in, there's no need for them to put you on the OT Levels to get a lot of money out of you, unless you demand it and have a bungload of money. However, I think it's still a feeder system, feeds you to the point where you'll keep paying, and keeps you there.

I find reach and withdraw one of the most useful techniques in scientology, actually. I've watched non-scientologist psychologists who I was twinned with for it (in a non-scientology environment) touch on things they had never been willing to look at in the past. It's a form of desensitization technique (not that you stop being able to sense, but that you stop being overly sensitized to things that you previously couldn't confront). I watched a woman who hadn't talked to her brother in fifteen years discover what she had been letting prevent the communication, and then practically run out of the session to go call her brother, crying, and beg to be allowed back into his life.

I think, if used when a person has long-standing conditions that they have difficulty confronting, that it's incredibly healing.

 

[KnightVision]

So the Crowley quote wasn't what you asked for?

Are you two attracted to each other?

 

[Voltaire's Child]

Opposites attract...hate is the just love that has missed its way.

Seriously, not sure what else this guy could possibly want. He tells me there's a Crowley Hubbard connection. (Because LRH said "my good friend Aleister Crowley). I tell him Crowley didn't like Hubbard. He asks me for a reference. I tell him I don't really care. He points out again I didn't give him a reference. So I pony up with a quote from Crowley.Then I get the hamster in a cage emoticon.

Meanwhile, he's on another thread applauding someone else's off topic ad hominem attack wherein another contributor (guess who) is being told that they should think a certain way and learn certain things.

So I guess I shouldn't have given him the Crowley quote even though he did ask for it.

I'm tempted to say "this is your brain on Scn criticism" but in deference to some very nice people who are themselves critics and because I think they often have VALID points to make, I will refrain from that sarcasm.

 

[Ladybird]

Well...Fluffy and I and many others live on what is commonly called the "Left Coast". Regarding the use of ones "Left Hand" well, I think that is a personal issue commonly known as "dressage" and I don't have any interest in hearing about it.

Overall though, I am very happy to see a die hard Hubbard fan like Fluffy (and she and I have gone a few rounds over the years) actually looking and willing to discuss things realistically. There is always hope!

 

[Free to shine]

Discussion with you fluffy, is not possible. You do not discuss. You throw out generalizations of opinions to answer a discussion based on facts and real data, then when asked to provide some factual info, you start saying you are insulted. In 10 min of looking at posts tonight, you have done the same thing on 3 threads with different members here. Yes there is a big pattern.When challenged on your generaliztions, you tell the person they are insulting you.

So, now that I completely understand that this is the way you respond to challenges or questions about references to your statements, no sense arguing about it. When I am interested in a real discussion with non generalizers who will attempt to back up what they say, I will not knock on your door.

This does not mean I will not comment to your generalizations as this is a discussion board.


The left hand path thread is very interesting and there is a lot to learn from some of these folks here...so if you'll excuse me....moving on.

Yep, that's the way it goes.