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Scientology CAUSES mental illness

anonomog

Gold Meritorious Patron
A bit of derail here, but IMO, Scientology CAUSES mental illness. :ohmy:

Are there any threads here on ESMB that discuss this? :unsure:

Type4_PTS wrote this on the Lisa thread and it may be already flogged to death but...
My brief brush with a psychological practice has made me believe that each and everyone of us could be diagnosed with some type of psychological disorder. IMO I don't think there is a perfectly psychologically balanced person in all 7 billion of us. We are all flawed and just muddle on as best we can.

So what can be directly attributable to Scientology?

As an outsider I would say that there a number of people who have PTSD who absolutely wouldn't have it without their direct involvement with Scientology.

What about arrogance that masks the fear of not being good enough? Arrogance seems very prevalent amongst the still in and can be sometimes in some of the Indie comments. Does the fear of being "caught" not being clear/OT/making it go right aggravate arrogance? Or are people just born arrogant and in-built behaviour pattern?

What do you think?
 

secretiveoldfag

Silver Meritorious Patron
I think that from the first stress test an element of psychological interference leading to deliberate damage is introduced by Scientology courses. It doesn't matter which ones you choose. Some are worse than others but they all lead to invasion and damage until some people quite literally lose their minds.

These techniques are successful at making an insecure or lonely person feel confident and able (early 'wins') but they are nonetheless invasive.

Hubbard knew this; he picked up various techniques and used them to brainwash his followers. He did not care about the damage it might cause them. Indeed he did not seem to care about the damage he did to himself and died pumped full of mind-altering drugs and apparently raving about aliens.
 

lotus

stubborn rebel sheep!
I believe $cientology cause mental illnesses to a greater or lesser degree, depending of one involvment in it (processing - training - tasks) It is consider a fact for many experts in the field of mental health and cults

The tech of brainwashing and mind control sits on deprive people from their own self-determinism and sens of good and bad. Thy are made rondroids.

So we encounter people

- with sever PTSD
- severe dissociation
- to keep going on with Oatee level, is mandatory to enter a coghitive dissonance phase and denial
- dehumanisation (to have people get intel from each other - guard them on RPF - agree to children slave work - secutity check on each other - spy - kill any compassion as to be seen as low tone.)
- Severe depression and distress (high rate of suicides )
- severe mental breakdown ( PTS type 3 - psychotics breaks - escapes)
- worsen nevrosis (constant thinking about fear to loose enternity - fear to be punished and denied such eternity)
- some becomes paranoid and psychotics (camera hat Oatee8 - squirrel busters)

That is so deeply implanted, it takes years to heal the dammages and replace psychotics thaughts and behavior implanted with sain one and to get rid of the $cientology brainswash)

These are all t+ or - the same resulst of cummunist concentration camps mental torture.

edited to add:

I would add a personnal observation I suspect about a Stockolm Syndrome, and I particularly suspected it with people who work for LRH and saw his abuses and were terrified. (may be children) It is possible - as it's rarely seen one speaks about his cruelty.
 
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Rene Descartes

Gold Meritorious Patron
I believe $cientologu cause mantal ilnesses to a greater or lesser degree depending of one involvment in it (processing - training - tasks)

The tech of brainwashing and mind control sits on deprive people from their own self-determinism and sens of good and bad. Thy are made rondroids.

So we encounter people

- with sever PTSD
- severe dissociation
- to keep going on with Oatee level, is mandatory to enter a coghitive dissonance phase and denial
- dehumanisation (to have people get intel from each other - guard them on RPF - agree to children slave work - secutity check on each other - spy - kill any compassion as to be seen as low tone.)
- Severe depression and distress (high rate of suicides )
- severe mental breakdown ( PTS type 3 - psychotics breaks - escapes)
- worsen nevrosis (constant thinking about fear to loose enternity - fear to be punished and denied such eternity)
- some becomes paranoid and psychotics (camera hat Oatee8 - squirrel busters)

That is so deeply implanted, it takes years to heal the dammages and replace psychotics thaughts and behavior implanted with sain one and to get rid of the $cientology brainswash)

These are all t+ or - the same resulst of cummunist concentration camps mental torture.

Well written lotus.

Rd00
 

Type4_PTS

Diamond Invictus SP
What do you think?

I genuinely do believe that Scientology can cause mental illness.

Here's a line I snipped from the very long definition of 'insanity" taken from www.law.com

The traditional test of insanity in criminal cases is whether the accused knew "the difference between right and wrong," following the "M'Naughten rule" from 19th century England.

http://dictionary.law.com/Default.aspx?selected=979

A Scientologist has had their value system twisted inside out to the point where they might view the same act as the greatest good that all others would view as incredibly destructive and crazy.

Any and all criminal activity can be seen to be ethical if they view it as the greatest good (according to Scientology Ethics).

Destroying other human beings can be seen as highly ethical by a Scientologist who has been indoctrinated with the Suppressive Person Doctrine and Policy on Fair Game (as well as Scientology Ethics).

This is similar to how some terrorists think, is it not?
 

anonomog

Gold Meritorious Patron
Great points thank you.

IMO constantly rehashing an event, or repetitive analysing and thinking about self, without a balance, is a recipe for disaster for anyone be it Scientology or psychology.
What happens when a person who spends many hours a day deeply involved in self, hits the outside world? Does it exhibit as lack of empathy or too much empathy? Does the individual find themselves unable to relate to other people? Does it matter at all?
Has anyone found that this was a problem, or negligible in the greater scheme of things?
 

lotus

stubborn rebel sheep!
How can a cult succed to turn all mice that came in $cientology into terminator rats ?????

Who of you and me will work for :

A spying agency ????
Operate a lie detector to torture people ????
Interrogate people for intel in a communist camp????
Order hundreds of young girls and women to abort ???
deprive their fellow workers of sleep as being their I\C ????
Sent people to illegal prison to be tortured for months and years because of a goal not reach ????
Have them run around a pole in the desert till they come close to death
work for an organisation who order people disconnect form their parents and children ???
Who will work for an organisation that specialise in destroying good people with any mean for that they disagree with the leader or want to leave ????
Who will agree to work for an organisation that deprive them from sleep and good food, false emprisoning them , for only a few penny a week - just enough to pay coffee. ???

Who will do that tell me ????

Sane people ?????

No I believe, only brainwashed people induced in a mental inability to behave like a normal human being,
can do that.

They are made to believe that the end justify the means in order to persue their megalomaniac misssion to save the planet. (KSW)

Been there done that!
Some are out for years and still show signs of mental dammage as an impaired judgement and in denying of factual truth for fear to loose their Utopia world.
 
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anonomog

Gold Meritorious Patron
I genuinely do believe that Scientology can cause mental illness.

Here's a line I snipped from the very long definition of 'insanity" taken from www.law.com



A Scientologist has had their value system twisted inside out to the point where they might view the same act as the greatest good that all others would view as incredibly destructive and crazy.

Any and all criminal activity can be seen to be ethical if they view it as the greatest good (according to Scientology Ethics).

Destroying other human beings can be seen as highly ethical by a Scientologist who has been indoctrinated with the Suppressive Person Doctrine and Policy on Fair Game (as well as Scientology Ethics).

This is similar to how some terrorists think, is it not?

Indeed it is.

Once out of the bubble would Lotus's point of dehumanisation continue to linger in the mindset? Would an ex find it easier to be unethical (in the non sci meaning of the word)?
I'm asking, but personally I don't believe that to be true. I feel that the percentage of exes with this behaviour would mimic the worlds. Not very scientific :biggrin: Does the greatest good mindset disappear quickly after leaving?

Maybe another question would be - what firmly held belief while in, was very quick to disappear once out?
 

lotus

stubborn rebel sheep!
Indeed it is.

Once out of the bubble would Lotus's point of dehumanisation continue to linger in the mindset? Would an ex find it easier to be unethical (in the non sci meaning of the word)?
I'm asking, but personally I don't believe that to be true. I feel that the percentage of exes with this behaviour would mimic the worlds. Not very scientific :biggrin: Does the greatest good mindset disappear quickly after leaving?

Maybe another question would be - what firmly held belief while in, was very quick to disappear once out?


I Believe it depends to the degree one had been indoctrined.
And to the degree one wish to know the truth, confront it, analyse his own behavior and be willing to throw away what he finds is bad or of no value. (there is a very much painfull phase in doing so)

It takes an ability and willingness to confront that when one finds there is garbage, it shall go to the garbage bin,
even though it creates a huge empty space in the ''knowledge, of knowing the knowingness as well as the abitily to mock-up the mocking-up of the mock-ups)

:confused2:
 

ClearedSP

Patron with Honors
While agreeing with the OP's idea that everybody's screwed up in their own way, I'd disagree that most people are diagnosable as such. To be diagnosable, you have to be messed up to the point where your quirks are interfering with your life in a serious way. If you're happy, functional, and stay out of trouble, you get the psych thumbs up.

I don't think any informed person could dispute that Scientology's caused many a case of PTSD, so I'll just acknowledge that and move on.

Scientology can also cause delusions by bombarding people with false data and forbidding them from hearing differing points of view. Delusion due to bad data is an enormous social problem, but hard to deal with, since freedom's not always compatible with official versions of truth.

I do think there's something else which should be looked at in addition to the above: I wonder about some old friends of mine who had extended psychotic episodes while on, or shortly after finishing, OT levels. IIRC, Ron Hubbard's explanation of schizophrenia was that it meant multiple personalities. This is incorrect, dissociative identity disorder (that's the correct name) is different and far rarer. Very few cases were observed before the 1970s, and the disorder remains quite rare outside of North America.

The odd demographics involved drew the attention of researchers. Why the increase of cases, and why mostly limited to North America? Although it's still being debated, one side has made a pretty good argument that the disorder is iatrogenic in origin, meaning it's something induced by attempts at psychotherapy gone wrong. The risk seems tied to factors like use of hypnosis, reliving incidents, and attempting to contact different personalities within the self. It is most common and most severe in patients who are suggestible and easily hypnotized.

My friends who went off the deep end -- was that how? I don't have enough data to objectively evaluate their cases, but if current thinking about dissociative identity disorder is correct, Dianetics, Scientology, and OT III in particular, might be the perfect medium for bringing about mental illness in a certain percentage of practitioners.
 

Anonycat

Crusader
While agreeing with the OP's idea that everybody's screwed up in their own way, I'd disagree that most people are diagnosable as such. To be diagnosable, you have to be messed up to the point where your quirks are interfering with your life in a serious way. If you're happy, functional, and stay out of trouble, you get the psych thumbs up.

I don't think any informed person could dispute that Scientology's caused many a case of PTSD, so I'll just acknowledge that and move on.

Scientology can also cause delusions by bombarding people with false data and forbidding them from hearing differing points of view. Delusion due to bad data is an enormous social problem, but hard to deal with, since freedom's not always compatible with official versions of truth.

I do think there's something else which should be looked at in addition to the above: I wonder about some old friends of mine who had extended psychotic episodes while on, or shortly after finishing, OT levels. IIRC, Ron Hubbard's explanation of schizophrenia was that it meant multiple personalities. This is incorrect, dissociative identity disorder (that's the correct name) is different and far rarer. Very few cases were observed before the 1970s, and the disorder remains quite rare outside of North America.

The odd demographics involved drew the attention of researchers. Why the increase of cases, and why mostly limited to North America? Although it's still being debated, one side has made a pretty good argument that the disorder is iatrogenic in origin, meaning it's something induced by attempts at psychotherapy gone wrong. The risk seems tied to factors like use of hypnosis, reliving incidents, and attempting to contact different personalities within the self. It is most common and most severe in patients who are suggestible and easily hypnotized.

My friends who went off the deep end -- was that how? I don't have enough data to objectively evaluate their cases, but if current thinking about dissociative identity disorder is correct, Dianetics, Scientology, and OT III in particular, might be the perfect medium for bringing about mental illness in a certain percentage of practitioners.

Thoughts about the OP and your post ... I don't think all people are arrogant, but in the culture where I live (US), we've been heavily exposed to the promise of perfection, and at minimum, directions on how to be more perfect. I think most people understand this, so I'll skip the details.

What mental/psychological issues can we attribute to scientology? Obviously, I'm just doing a combination of speculating and reporting.

I think the year was 2009, and I decided that I wanted to produce a small speaking tour, of well known exes/whistle-blowers. I had selected the Pacific Northwest, as one of the first exes I contacted was really excited about the idea, and said not only they'd do it for no fee, but suggested that it happen annually. They lived in the Oregon area, and he told me of all the Colleges and Universities I should contact.

I called a wonderful, warm, open, generous and lovely man named Chuck next. We ended up talking on the phone for over an hour, and eventually got on to OT 3. He said something like: it was really exciting at the time, like this wild science fiction rodeo! Then he told me something that at the time, I'd never heard before - but have since. He said something like: "Scientology fucked me up bad, and I think that I'll probably never get over it." My heart sunk.

I think it's so, that people can often know the source of their mental condition. Genetics, trauma of war, being beaten as a child, and so on. The good news is, that it tells us where we want to start in the recovery process. Sometimes, like the illusive perfection we may want to seek out in various ways, recovery may be successful or may be less than perfect. Or a flop. That's life.

I wish Chuck and everyone a good and speedy recovery. Chuck is such a sweetie, I wouldn't be surprised if he was fine now.
 

FoTi

Crusader
Scientology seems to breed arrogance. I found that many Scientologists consider themselves superior to those outside of Scientology. And I saw that many people who had done OT Levels considered themselves superior to those who hadn't done them. Also saw people in the S.O. who considered themselves superior to those who were not in the S.O. There was a lot of looking down one's nose at others, by those who were involved in Scientology.
 

lotus

stubborn rebel sheep!
scn IS a mental illness, period.

:yes:

Here are some theta exteriorization of the highest OT levels!

article-0-0BB9687200000578-877_468x286.jpg


allender.jpg


[video=youtube_share;HVAbr-af4-8]http://youtu.be/HVAbr-af4-8[/video]
 

Demented LRH

Patron Meritorious
Type4_PTS wrote this on the Lisa thread and it may be already flogged to death but...My brief brush with a psychological practice has made me believe that each and everyone of us could be diagnosed with some type of psychological disorder. IMO I don't think there is a perfectly psychologically balanced person in all 7 billion of us. We are all flawed and just muddle on as best we can.So what can be directly attributable to Scientology?As an outsider I would say that there a number of people who have PTSD who absolutely wouldn't have it without their direct involvement with Scientology.What about arrogance that masks the fear of not being good enough? Arrogance seems very prevalent amongst the still in and can be sometimes in some of the Indie comments. Does the fear of being "caught" not being clear/OT/making it go right aggravate arrogance? Or are people just born arrogant and in-built behaviour pattern? What do you think?
I am not an OT (I haven’t reached even the level of Clear), but I read some articles about the OT auditing. During the OT sessions people talk to the spirits (thetans) as if those spirits were real. In other words, the OTs hear voices in their heads. If this is not a clear sign of mental illness, I don’t know what is.
 

Claire Swazey

Spokeshole, fence sitter
Type4_PTS wrote this on the Lisa thread and it may be already flogged to death but...
My brief brush with a psychological practice has made me believe that each and everyone of us could be diagnosed with some type of psychological disorder. IMO I don't think there is a perfectly psychologically balanced person in all 7 billion of us. We are all flawed and just muddle on as best we can.

So what can be directly attributable to Scientology?

As an outsider I would say that there a number of people who have PTSD who absolutely wouldn't have it without their direct involvement with Scientology.

What about arrogance that masks the fear of not being good enough? Arrogance seems very prevalent amongst the still in and can be sometimes in some of the Indie comments. Does the fear of being "caught" not being clear/OT/making it go right aggravate arrogance? Or are people just born arrogant and in-built behaviour pattern?

What do you think?

Being abused leaves its mark on people.
 

NoName

A Girl Has No Name
scn IS a mental illness, period.

I think you have a point. I'm not sure if there is a legitimate scientific (not Scientological) term for valence, but I do think that the longer you're in the more you're in LRH's valence, and we know how completely batshit crazy he was. Screaming at BT's that were the children of a fertile imagination heavily dosed with rum, pinks, and grays.

There's also DM's valence. He's every bit as evil as LRH, but doesn't hide it behind false charm and charisma. He's just plain old mean and sadistic. You see that in the SO and execs.

So yeah, to the extent that one becomes like LRH and DM while in, yes it absolutely is a mental illness.
 
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