Nope. For me....it's an esoteric concept on paper that cannot be proven. I wouldn't
criticize anyone for believing however.
I recently saw a T-Shirt with a picture of Santa Claus on it with the caption:
"Keep the dream alive!" lol
UMike
Scientology concepts that still "make sense" to you.
- Thread starter Lulu Belle
- Start date
Nope. For me....it's an esoteric concept on paper that cannot be proven. I wouldn't
criticize anyone for believing however.
I recently saw a T-Shirt with a picture of Santa Claus on it with the caption:
"Keep the dream alive!" lol
UMike
Mick Wenlock
Admin Emeritus (retired)
It took me a long time to come to some sort of conclusion about Scientology and I paraphrase some famous writer in order to do it.
Scientology is both good and original. Unfortunately the parts that are good are not original and the parts that are original are not good.
Take the concept of Ser Fac (the little brother to the Evil Purpose - lol) - you are using a construct which only appears to describe the phenomena. Someone who "has to be right" could be someone who is holding a position they cannot fill and cannot afford to look weak. That is one possible scenario for example.
The trouble I (and I emphasize that I am only talking for myself) with Scientology concepts is that they provide a facile label for things without actually having much understanding.
Mick Wenlock
Admin Emeritus (retired)
lol...
Alan
Gold Meritorious Patron
Wonderful summation.
If you take Hubbard out of the equation - and take organized Scio out.
You are left with many processes, many exercises.......most from other practices.
Separating what truly works from agreements of what appears to work is not easy......as to pulling away the many labels....phew!
Alan
Last edited by a moderator:
mate
Patron Meritorious
I agree completely with what Mick said and with your astute conclusion.Wonderful summation.
If you take Hubbard out of the equation - and take organized Scio out.
You are left with many processes, many exercises.......most from other practices.
Separating what truly works from agreements of what appears to work is not easy......as to pulling away the many labels....phew!
Alan
Regards, David.
Mick Wenlock
Admin Emeritus (retired)
Dennis!
Glad to be here. This thread does remind me of your excellent advice about getting the cult speak out one's head after leaving - that advice has been incredibly valuable.
Mick
freet43
Patron with Honors
freet43
Patron with Honors
This is a great question.
Frankly, most Scn. concepts still make sense to me. The organization and what it's done over the years does not.
My experience may be a bit different than many on this list. I've been out since 79, after spending 6 years on staff at a very successful mission. Overall, the years were happy ones. We worked insane hours, and rarely got a day off, but mostly I didn't mind. Unlike the awful treatment that I hear about in the SO, we had a wonderful group of staff, who treated each other and the public with dignity and respect, and generally received living wages. The mission holder invested lots of money into staff training and auditing - staff really were going up the bridge. (For his continued upstats, the mission holder was rewarded with a declare after the mission holders meeting of '82. I was long gone by then, but it was still sad to see what was done to that being).
So, why did I leave. After never having more than a single day off here and there, I requested and took a 6 week vacation, during which time I traveled overseas.
Upon returning, I noticed that things had really started going south. Friends that had joined the SO and left after terrible treatment had returned and told me about the RPF. Several ex-SO members became staff members at the mission. Their stories just creeped me out and I became suspicious of the organization. Fair game, conspiracies, finance police, forced disconnections - the way this stuff was being applied was getting to me. In addition, the cost started to sky-rocket. Too much attention on $$. I started longing for a more "normal" life, regular hours, more money for me, time to have a family, vacations... that kind of stuff. I trusted "our people", but not the SO, etc. It took going through some steps, but I routed out and left on fairly good terms.
When I left, I was quite happy and in excellent mental and emotional shape and did not go through a "destim" phase.
I had packed away my meter, certs and books and just stopped "thinking" about Scn. (By that I mean, I stopped thinking "about" Scn, no longer reading any materials, etc.) For the first few years, I had told people what I had been doing, then it just even stopped coming up in my day to day life. Some of my friends in town were ex-staff, most are still on lines, and we just never talk about it.
But in many ways, I still think and live like a Scn.
I returned to the university and obtained my bachelor's and went on to work on my MBA. I attribute my success as a student on having completed the primary rundown and using the study tech - I became an exceptional, motivated student as a result of that tech. (That was a huge difference than before I did Scn - and I created a game to get the highest A in the class, and because of the tech, that was easy to do). I enjoyed blowing away the professors. I definitely find those concepts make sense.
I currently work as the manager of a large academic department. The info in the OEC has been very useful - many of the principles, including establishing a "mission statement", use of an "org board", managing by statistics, etc., etc have now become fairly mainstream concepts.
There are so many examples that are just too numerous to mention of the admin tech working. A few include: seeing what happens to a director, when his unit has been folded and he is not given a new game (bolivar) - and how by helping him create a new game, he became happy and successful again. Third party tech to help handle ongoing quarrels between staff. The danger situation that results when someone's authority is bypassed in the chain of command. O/W tech. Communication tech and keeping TRs in. The tone scale.
Without getting into case, I'll just say that I made tremendous gains in Life Repair and through the grades. The wins and abilities gained really did change how I interact with people, deal with communication, problems, change, etc. While training as an auditor, I learned a lot of truth about those topics and continue to see those concepts in action.
Other concepts - the very basics still make a lot of sense to me, such as my firm belief in who I am - a spiritual being. (Really - does anyone here doubt that?)
Does the reactive mind make sense? As a clear it is obvious to me - it is easy to see what I was like before, and where I'm at now. As an auditor, other people's reactive minds were very real also.
Well, I could keep going on and on - but this is probably not what you wanted to hear.
So, one might wonder why am I here - how did I get on this list?
What changed recently is that a family member needed help - and I was not the person to provide it. (But I do not "believe" in the current psych "methods" nor the drug pushing - another Scn. concept that makes sense to me).
So I started to search - and searched a lot on the net. My old concerns about the CO$ were more than validated by reading about what had been going on, with all the abuses and all, and many sad tales about people I knew, so I could not turn to the CO$. But I decided to search for terminals that I could trust, that standardly used the tech outside of the CO$ - because, you see, I still know the tech works. At least, all the tech I've used/ran/etc.
In searching around, I came across your board.
Some of the names on this list (and on this thread) are familiar to me, but I'm not ready to come out and give my real name just yet. I've been living a happy life and don't need the OSA at my door...
This thread really got me thinking and I thought it was time that I acknowledge what still makes sense.
There's a lot more, and if anyone is interested, I could keep going
M.
Frankly, most Scn. concepts still make sense to me. The organization and what it's done over the years does not.
My experience may be a bit different than many on this list. I've been out since 79, after spending 6 years on staff at a very successful mission. Overall, the years were happy ones. We worked insane hours, and rarely got a day off, but mostly I didn't mind. Unlike the awful treatment that I hear about in the SO, we had a wonderful group of staff, who treated each other and the public with dignity and respect, and generally received living wages. The mission holder invested lots of money into staff training and auditing - staff really were going up the bridge. (For his continued upstats, the mission holder was rewarded with a declare after the mission holders meeting of '82. I was long gone by then, but it was still sad to see what was done to that being).
So, why did I leave. After never having more than a single day off here and there, I requested and took a 6 week vacation, during which time I traveled overseas.
Upon returning, I noticed that things had really started going south. Friends that had joined the SO and left after terrible treatment had returned and told me about the RPF. Several ex-SO members became staff members at the mission. Their stories just creeped me out and I became suspicious of the organization. Fair game, conspiracies, finance police, forced disconnections - the way this stuff was being applied was getting to me. In addition, the cost started to sky-rocket. Too much attention on $$. I started longing for a more "normal" life, regular hours, more money for me, time to have a family, vacations... that kind of stuff. I trusted "our people", but not the SO, etc. It took going through some steps, but I routed out and left on fairly good terms.
When I left, I was quite happy and in excellent mental and emotional shape and did not go through a "destim" phase.
I had packed away my meter, certs and books and just stopped "thinking" about Scn. (By that I mean, I stopped thinking "about" Scn, no longer reading any materials, etc.) For the first few years, I had told people what I had been doing, then it just even stopped coming up in my day to day life. Some of my friends in town were ex-staff, most are still on lines, and we just never talk about it.
But in many ways, I still think and live like a Scn.
I returned to the university and obtained my bachelor's and went on to work on my MBA. I attribute my success as a student on having completed the primary rundown and using the study tech - I became an exceptional, motivated student as a result of that tech. (That was a huge difference than before I did Scn - and I created a game to get the highest A in the class, and because of the tech, that was easy to do). I enjoyed blowing away the professors. I definitely find those concepts make sense.
I currently work as the manager of a large academic department. The info in the OEC has been very useful - many of the principles, including establishing a "mission statement", use of an "org board", managing by statistics, etc., etc have now become fairly mainstream concepts.
There are so many examples that are just too numerous to mention of the admin tech working. A few include: seeing what happens to a director, when his unit has been folded and he is not given a new game (bolivar) - and how by helping him create a new game, he became happy and successful again. Third party tech to help handle ongoing quarrels between staff. The danger situation that results when someone's authority is bypassed in the chain of command. O/W tech. Communication tech and keeping TRs in. The tone scale.
Without getting into case, I'll just say that I made tremendous gains in Life Repair and through the grades. The wins and abilities gained really did change how I interact with people, deal with communication, problems, change, etc. While training as an auditor, I learned a lot of truth about those topics and continue to see those concepts in action.
Other concepts - the very basics still make a lot of sense to me, such as my firm belief in who I am - a spiritual being. (Really - does anyone here doubt that?)
Does the reactive mind make sense? As a clear it is obvious to me - it is easy to see what I was like before, and where I'm at now. As an auditor, other people's reactive minds were very real also.
Well, I could keep going on and on - but this is probably not what you wanted to hear.
So, one might wonder why am I here - how did I get on this list?
What changed recently is that a family member needed help - and I was not the person to provide it. (But I do not "believe" in the current psych "methods" nor the drug pushing - another Scn. concept that makes sense to me).
So I started to search - and searched a lot on the net. My old concerns about the CO$ were more than validated by reading about what had been going on, with all the abuses and all, and many sad tales about people I knew, so I could not turn to the CO$. But I decided to search for terminals that I could trust, that standardly used the tech outside of the CO$ - because, you see, I still know the tech works. At least, all the tech I've used/ran/etc.
In searching around, I came across your board.
Some of the names on this list (and on this thread) are familiar to me, but I'm not ready to come out and give my real name just yet. I've been living a happy life and don't need the OSA at my door...
This thread really got me thinking and I thought it was time that I acknowledge what still makes sense.
There's a lot more, and if anyone is interested, I could keep going
M.
Lulu Belle
Moonbat
Well, no one is going to try to force you to give out your real name if you're not ready.
But (no offense) I don't think OSA is going to bother to appear at the door of someone who hasn't been in Scientology since 1979.
They've got way bigger problems these days.
freet43
Patron with Honors
Thanks for the welcome, and as I have time to share more I will.
btw. I looked at your profile and see that you are Lithuanian-American. My former sister-in-law is Lithuanian. During the years I've been out, I had no idea of the expansion of Scn. in the former soviet block. I'm a native Russian speaker and before I left staff, I traveled in the former Soviet Union - before the fall. That's when my brother met his first wife, when we were all visiting Sochi.
That had been my first visit since going on staff in Scn. I could see unpleasant similarities between the Soviet regime and where the CO$ was heading. RPF = gulag. that kind of thing. Heavy handed "ethics" handling. Restrictions on what one was allowed to read/think...
Now Scn. tech is flourishing over there. Funny how things go round.
M.
freet43
Patron with Honors
No offense taken.
But, wouldn't posting on this forum not endear me to those folks?
and, especially if I get more involved in the FZ?
Hi Freet
Welcome!
There is a definite pattern where people in Missions tended to get more workability from the tech.
I am sure this is because they were furthest from LRH and the SO insanity!
Your reminisence brought back some lovely memories for me!
In my time it was always clear to me that the closer to source you were the more stressful and less "theta" it was. I always rationalised this as LRH's toughness but wondered if it was LRH's nuttiness.
Welcome!
There is a definite pattern where people in Missions tended to get more workability from the tech.
I am sure this is because they were furthest from LRH and the SO insanity!
Your reminisence brought back some lovely memories for me!
In my time it was always clear to me that the closer to source you were the more stressful and less "theta" it was. I always rationalised this as LRH's toughness but wondered if it was LRH's nuttiness.
freet43
Patron with Honors
Thanks for the welcome.
Yes, I can't think of a single person that I knew that left the mission and went into the SO that is still in. The SO seemed really good at chewing up and spitting out wonderful people.
I must say, I was surprised how many old-timer mission staff I knew are still active in Scn, at least those that did not go into an org or SO. With the on-line postings of completions, patrons, web pages, etc - it is easy to see what folks have been doing, if anything.
So, as I think of someone, I look them up. What I've found is that many have gone on to successful lives, running their own businesses (and doing well enough to pay the current exhorbitant pricing to move up the bridge or donate huge sums of money), some are running their own Scn missions, some are running authorized field groups or continue to be field auditors, others make their living as FSMs, there are WISE execs, and heads of large corporations, such as eRepublic. From their stats, it appears these people are winning at life, and from their communications and web pages, many are crediting the tech for their success.
What I don't get, is don't they see where the current CO$ is at? Or, is it that they just focus on what they are doing and are happy with their lives so they don't see beyond that?
I'm glad my post brought back some good memories - is your story posted? I'll try to find it.
Love your quote, by the way.
M.
Yes, I can't think of a single person that I knew that left the mission and went into the SO that is still in. The SO seemed really good at chewing up and spitting out wonderful people.
I must say, I was surprised how many old-timer mission staff I knew are still active in Scn, at least those that did not go into an org or SO. With the on-line postings of completions, patrons, web pages, etc - it is easy to see what folks have been doing, if anything.
So, as I think of someone, I look them up. What I've found is that many have gone on to successful lives, running their own businesses (and doing well enough to pay the current exhorbitant pricing to move up the bridge or donate huge sums of money), some are running their own Scn missions, some are running authorized field groups or continue to be field auditors, others make their living as FSMs, there are WISE execs, and heads of large corporations, such as eRepublic. From their stats, it appears these people are winning at life, and from their communications and web pages, many are crediting the tech for their success.
What I don't get, is don't they see where the current CO$ is at? Or, is it that they just focus on what they are doing and are happy with their lives so they don't see beyond that?
I'm glad my post brought back some good memories - is your story posted? I'll try to find it.
Love your quote, by the way.
M.
I don't have my story posted, but I've contributed quite a lot to threads!
As regards those who stay in... my experience in the 70's up to 82 is that people tended to stay in until something "bad" was done to them. They would see other people harmed and abused and mostly rationalise it away.
I suppose Mission people, generally had fewer abuses inflicted upon them and that might be why you see so many people you knew still in/still winning. Of course there was the Mission Holder's Conference in '82 when the RTC tried to inflict SO discipline and punishment upon them. That caused a huge exodus from the Church.
freet43
Patron with Honors
Well, I guess I was never too good at rationalizing - ha ha
Outpoints are outpoints in my view - didn't matter if it was against me, or others. I was never a sheep. And, to the dismay of others who might have something to hide, I've always been known to ask the hard questions straight up - and on the flip side, I strive to give honest answers to hard questions asked of me.
When I was routing off, I was honest about bringing up the outpoints and could see what was coming, therefore I was not too surprised to hear of what occurred at the Mission Holder's conference.
Outpoints are outpoints in my view - didn't matter if it was against me, or others. I was never a sheep. And, to the dismay of others who might have something to hide, I've always been known to ask the hard questions straight up - and on the flip side, I strive to give honest answers to hard questions asked of me.
When I was routing off, I was honest about bringing up the outpoints and could see what was coming, therefore I was not too surprised to hear of what occurred at the Mission Holder's conference.
programmer_guy
True Ex-Scientologist
No, they will not show up at your front door. But if they find out who you are they WILL try to find where you live and work - just to keep track of you, in case some day you get "active" like, for example, picketing.
Just ask barbz about them posting flyers about her when she got "active".
And, yes, I have been followed. This would not have happened if I had not posted so much personal info on OCMB. (Although I am not now scared about this.) Does this make any sense from a wog point of view? Hell, no! But we are dealing with an organization that is paranoid schizophrenic - just like Hubbard was.
Just because a WOG organization will not care about you does NOT mean that CofS will not.
Romuva
Patron Meritorious
Hey Freet,that was cool to read.So you visited Russia quite a bit?Are you first generation
or native born Russian if you don't mind me asking?
So you know quite a bit of Russian and soviet history I take it? Myself I'm still
learning alot.
I don't speak Russian or Lithuanian myself (there are no schools near me
that you can learn ,only for younger children)
I'm 2nd-3rd generation,born in America but have cousins in Lithuania I met
about 10 years ago.Most of my cousins(the older ones) don't bother with
English.I have one cousin who speaks fluent Russian and Polish as well as
some Latvian.Military background so he knows alot about the former soviet
apparatus,alot of it he doesn't like to talk about.I think he was stationed in Riga/Black sea at certain points.I had another cousin who got shuffled around through alot of the soviet union as a electronics technicianMost of my family are
farmers /former soviet working class so alot of their experiences are based
on that upbringing and life.
I work with younger people who are musicians so I see people who are
very hungry for western ideas and music to listen to.
It's funny ,COS could never put a SP tag on me.It would only be a lie..
)Yeah,soviet -life in those countries is hard to describe to somebody who hasn't traveled there.Westerners make certain assumptions about what
life must be like now that the S.U. but being there and talking to people
you gain alot of understanding.
It's true ,Scn has alot of appeal in those countries.People are now able
to pursue their lives as individuals and are hungry for information out of the
west.Lithuania is a good example of a country because of so many years
of occupation and repression, people now are struggling for identity and their
new role in a EU "New Europe".Scientology and FZ in alot of cases offer
solutions for people to neatly fit or assimilate in a soviet-style fashion.
Keeping tidy and organized,track of goals,wants ,needs ect.The old internationalists cause for the greater good appeals too I'm sure.
and there are many other reasons it appeals to people as well.Something
like the purif and auditing give some therapeutic benefit and appeal to alot
of the traditional spa -like treatment that exsisted before WWII."Good for
body and soul"...ect.
Anything that could offer solutions to hardships of daily life and resolving
frustration of post-soviet transition drudgery is going to have a certain appeal.The idea of creating one's destiny or reality,future.ect.
People will have to learn hard lessons unfortunately before they see some
of the similiarities in COS and the old apparatus.They have had too many
years of conformist lifestyle.A westerner like myself couldn't offer much
in the way of information and persuasion and in a case like FZ .FZ isn't really
doing anything that these people don't want to try already.I'm still concerned because
I don't want people to fall into traps.They had years of one system and another set
of groups causing problems concerns me as somebody that has a "national conscience"
There are alot of similarities to COS and old soviet system.Some of the outdated and stale parts of COS are very soviet reminiscient.What COS
does to it critics has alot of the same ridiculous tone.
I'm surprised myself there aren't more people from Russia and formersoviet union on these boards.
Maybe COS isn't as popular as it professes.They want to maintain that illusion.very soviet
reminiscient.
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Terril park
Sponsor
Hi Freet,
The FZ in Russia is doing better than anywhere else. They have
around 60 FZ orgs and are probably training more auditors than the COS now.
40 class 5's certified last year.
http://www.freewebs.com/techoutsidethecofs
http://internationalfreezone.net
The FZ in Russia is doing better than anywhere else. They have
around 60 FZ orgs and are probably training more auditors than the COS now.
40 class 5's certified last year.
http://www.freewebs.com/techoutsidethecofs
http://internationalfreezone.net
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